Berbers want friendship with Israel. Arabs don't.

[mord]

[Dr. Dan]

interesting.

it seems noble...but the issue isn't arabs and berbers..the issue is Islam and it's hatefulness.

As far as i'm concerned, if an Arab practiced a righteous religion and chose to be friends with Jews, then it's not a bad thing.  Friendship when it can be reinforced is better than war.

[Ulli]

interesting.

it seems noble...but the issue isn't arabs and berbers..the issue is Islam and it's hatefulness.

As far as i'm concerned, if an Arab practiced a righteous religion and chose to be friends with Jews, then it's not a bad thing.  Friendship when it can be reinforced is better than war.

Yes indeed.

I exspected the worst, as I clicked on the link to this video.

But the thoughts of the old berber Ahmad surprised me positively. In opposite to this were the responses of the Arab Muslim in the tv-studio really evil.

The best part was, where the Arab Muslim said, if the Berbers believe that Arab identity is something foreign they would reject Mohammed and Islam.

Oh Muhammed get up and leave the Arab Maghreb.

Perhaps this would be the best 

[Shlomo]

interesting.

it seems noble...but the issue isn't arabs and berbers..the issue is Islam and it's hatefulness.

As far as i'm concerned, if an Arab practiced a righteous religion and chose to be friends with Jews, then it's not a bad thing.  Friendship when it can be reinforced is better than war.

You are correct that part of the problem is islam but remember that it's an insane religion and a group of people will choose a religion that fits their agendas and personal bents.

In other words, they use islam as an excuse to condone violence and justify the behavior they would have chosen without the religion. Remember that the Torah (in Genesis) says that the descendants of Ishmael will be wild and "his hand shall be against every man and every mans' hand against him".

[Sarah]

My grandmother in Morocco, said she used to live in a Jewish-Arab village and to distinguish between the two, people had some kind of natural tatoo marked on them or something.

The berbers in the mountains are very plesant, though they all live in fairly remote or small places. The cities, aren't so much welcome to the Jews and if they aren't, i mean how can such a friendship be built?

The berbers are only doing this because they are constantly arguing with the arabs (both have bad relations), it isn't completely sincere what this guy i saying, i would assume....but just to be different....if that makes sense.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are few pure Berbers today, and those who are are almost all Muslims. I don't see why they would hate Israel less than true Arabs.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

There are few pure Berbers today, and those who are are almost all Muslims. I don't see why they would hate Israel less than true Arabs.

1.Because they are far away, and most of the hatred probably comes from Arab nationalism, and Israel is a blow to Arab national pride (and then from that Islam is used, in the convenient way they want to use it- as a tool by the Imams).
2. They had it much better when Jews were their.
 For example a great Rav here in Queens, and at Torahanytime.com - Rav Ben Haim, said that they themselves (the servents) preferred Jews over Arabs, and were proud to be chosen to work in a Jews house where they were treated better, when they were chosen, they took pride in it.   

[JTFFan]

There are few pure Berbers today, and those who are are almost all Muslims. I don't see why they would hate Israel less than true Arabs.

1.Because they are far away, and most of the hatred probably comes from Arab nationalism, and Israel is a blow to Arab national pride (and then from that Islam is used, in the convenient way they want to use it- as a tool by the Imams).
2. They had it much better when Jews were their.
 For example a great Rav here in Queens, and at Torahanytime.com - Rav Ben Haim, said that they themselves (the servents) preferred Jews over Arabs, and were proud to be chosen to work in a Jews house where they were treated better, when they were chosen, they took pride in it.   

You're right it's because they are Arab muSSlim Nazi NationaliSSts. Although, I don't like Berbers either because they are muSSlim as well.

[Madeline]

I like this guy!  He gets it that Arab imperialism pushed down his people, and he is pushing back.  Berbers and Jews (and Christians and animists and Hindus and anyone else who isn't Arab) are natural allies, as long as they can stay clear of Muslim arrogance.  One thing though - he said Jews were in the area 1,000 years BCE and I thought is was longer.

[Dr. Dan]

interesting.

it seems noble...but the issue isn't arabs and berbers..the issue is Islam and it's hatefulness.

As far as i'm concerned, if an Arab practiced a righteous religion and chose to be friends with Jews, then it's not a bad thing.  Friendship when it can be reinforced is better than war.

You are correct that part of the problem is islam but remember that it's an insane religion and a group of people will choose a religion that fits their agendas and personal bents.

In other words, they use islam as an excuse to condone violence and justify the behavior they would have chosen without the religion. Remember that the Torah (in Genesis) says that the descendants of Ishmael will be wild and "his hand shall be against every man and every mans' hand against him".

Shlomo I was thinking this as well.  Islam is a religion created by an Ishmaelite/Esauite and is used as an excuse for violence.  If not for Islam, you say that the Ishamelite/Esauite wills till pursue blood of Issac/Jacob/Israel.

Except, here's an interesting tidbit. Recall that Ishmael and Issac reunited briefly when they buried their father Abraham.  And there was also a point that Esau and Jacob somewhat reconciled.  What can we make of this?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

interesting.

it seems noble...but the issue isn't arabs and berbers..the issue is Islam and it's hatefulness.

As far as i'm concerned, if an Arab practiced a righteous religion and chose to be friends with Jews, then it's not a bad thing.  Friendship when it can be reinforced is better than war.

You are correct that part of the problem is islam but remember that it's an insane religion and a group of people will choose a religion that fits their agendas and personal bents.

In other words, they use islam as an excuse to condone violence and justify the behavior they would have chosen without the religion. Remember that the Torah (in Genesis) says that the descendants of Ishmael will be wild and "his hand shall be against every man and every mans' hand against him".

Shlomo I was thinking this as well.  Islam is a religion created by an Ishmaelite/Esauite and is used as an excuse for violence.  If not for Islam, you say that the Ishamelite/Esauite wills till pursue blood of Issac/Jacob/Israel.

Except, here's an interesting tidbit. Recall that Ishmael and Issac reunited briefly when they buried their father Abraham.  And there was also a point that Esau and Jacob somewhat reconciled.  What can we make of this?

 I was actualy hearing a shiur on this by this Kabbalist (I rarly listin to him though, but I came across to this issue, although I do not know if I would totaly agree with what he was saying; sounded too liberal towards them).
 http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Mordechai_Aderet/index.html  "05/20/08 Good Eye "

[Dr. Dan]

interesting.

it seems noble...but the issue isn't arabs and berbers..the issue is Islam and it's hatefulness.

As far as i'm concerned, if an Arab practiced a righteous religion and chose to be friends with Jews, then it's not a bad thing.  Friendship when it can be reinforced is better than war.

You are correct that part of the problem is islam but remember that it's an insane religion and a group of people will choose a religion that fits their agendas and personal bents.

In other words, they use islam as an excuse to condone violence and justify the behavior they would have chosen without the religion. Remember that the Torah (in Genesis) says that the descendants of Ishmael will be wild and "his hand shall be against every man and every mans' hand against him".

Shlomo I was thinking this as well.  Islam is a religion created by an Ishmaelite/Esauite and is used as an excuse for violence.  If not for Islam, you say that the Ishamelite/Esauite wills till pursue blood of Issac/Jacob/Israel.

Except, here's an interesting tidbit. Recall that Ishmael and Issac reunited briefly when they buried their father Abraham.  And there was also a point that Esau and Jacob somewhat reconciled.  What can we make of this?

 I was actualy hearing a shiur on this by this Kabbalist (I rarly listin to him though, but I came across to this issue, although I do not know if I would totaly agree with what he was saying; sounded too liberal towards them).
 http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Mordechai_Aderet/index.html  "05/20/08 Good Eye "

can you summarize what he says?

[mord]

The Berbers in Algeria are the ones who put down the fundementalist revolt in Algeria a few yrs ago

[Ulli]

I like the view of Rabbi Mordechai Aderet. I have never understood this passage of the Bible before. I thought that the behaviour of Jakob was arguable, but on the other hand it was god's will that he will get the blessing.

So is Aderet's explanation a good way to understand the problem. That Jacob got the blessing is right, but that he took it by himself and with a lie was wrong.

The consequence was that Esaus descendence hate Jacobs descendence.

But there is in my oppinion a problem:
 
According to the bible is the "curse" in this case the hate of Esaus descendence towards Ismaels descendence only on the children who follow the ways of their fathers.

That means in the end, that anti-semitism exists today, because Jews are lying and cheating. If they would be all righteous, there will be no anti-semitism anymore.

I don't know 

[mord]

Yes i think this is true there ar many Jews who are evil and enemies of the rightgous too many reform and leftists and even some nazi Jews

[Madeline]

People change, to some degree.  It is important to keep in mind that during the Islamic invasions of Europe, the Berbers were part of those troups.  They committed all the usual Muslim atrocities against the Europeans.  Of course, they were a conquered people and they did what was wanted of them; they didn't rebel then.

If they are having second thoughts now about bowing to condescending Arab masters, that's good.  Perhaps they are potential allies in an inter-ethnic repulsion of Arab/Islamic global conquest.  I'd say take a wait and see attitude and give this thing a chance to show what it can do.

[syyuge]

Fringe peoples like Berbers, Bedauns and Kurds were with Arab Muslamics to participate in looting and plundering of the properties of other nations, which obviously must have resulted in killings as well. Those peoples were contend with the small shares of loot that was called "Maale Ganimat" as per the basic tenets of Arab Muslamic socialism.

Things must be changing and perhaps these peoples are coming more and more to understand that they were used and exploited and the Arab Muslamics have robbed them of their identity and ultimately of their self respect.

So some of them may have started sounding the death drums of the Muslam. This must be a welcome trend albeit with the riders of caution and reliability checks.

With Regards...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I like the view of Rabbi Mordechai Aderet. I have never understood this passage of the Bible before. I thought that the behaviour of Jakob was arguable, but on the other hand it was G-d's will that he will get the blessing.

So is Aderet's explanation a good way to understand the problem. That Jacob got the blessing is right, but that he took it by himself and with a lie was wrong.

The consequence was that Esaus descendence hate Jacobs descendence.

But there is in my oppinion a problem:
 
According to the bible is the "curse" in this case the hate of Esaus descendence towards Ismaels descendence only on the children who follow the ways of their fathers.

That means in the end, that anti-semitism exists today, because Jews are lying and cheating. If they would be all righteous, there will be no anti-semitism anymore.

I don't know 

 Thats why I do not agree with him, and definitly the Kahanist way (as one can see by reading Rav Kahane's ZTL HYD and Benyamin Kahane's ZTL HYD books) would totaly disagree. But he does point out some good in that the goal of the world is that even Esav and Ishmael do tishuva, the proper way and drop their false ways. Everyone agrees that this will happen, but people like Rav Kahane would say after G-d's might would be shown in the world and nations will Fear G-d, while in this shiur at least Rav Aderet seems to imply with love (but it might be motivated by many of the Haredi outlook of everything for the best, and them sometimes giving too much Lekah Zihut, even when they (we) are being killed.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yes i think this is true there ar many Jews who are evil and enemies of the rightgous too many reform and leftists and even some nazi Jews

 I do no think that was what he was implying at alll. I know that because he talked about Yakov, and he talked about Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai criticizing the Romans, and thus having to run away from them. And these were some of the greatest people in history. For each one the world stood in their merit.
 But whatever I will listin to it again, to better understand.

[Dr. Dan]

Either way, when an enemy nation decides to extend its hand to the Jews, we should continue to remain vigilant and teach our children and generations later vigilance.  Sometimes friendships with Jews are created because of self-interest and not because it is the right thing to do.

[Ulli]

I like the view of Rabbi Mordechai Aderet. I have never understood this passage of the Bible before. I thought that the behaviour of Jakob was arguable, but on the other hand it was G-d's will that he will get the blessing.

So is Aderet's explanation a good way to understand the problem. That Jacob got the blessing is right, but that he took it by himself and with a lie was wrong.

The consequence was that Esaus descendence hate Jacobs descendence.

But there is in my oppinion a problem:
 
According to the bible is the "curse" in this case the hate of Esaus descendence towards Ismaels descendence only on the children who follow the ways of their fathers.

That means in the end, that anti-semitism exists today, because Jews are lying and cheating. If they would be all righteous, there will be no anti-semitism anymore.

I don't know 

 Thats why I do not agree with him, and definitly the Kahanist way (as one can see by reading Rav Kahane's ZTL HYD and Benyamin Kahane's ZTL HYD books) would totaly disagree. But he does point out some good in that the goal of the world is that even Esav and Ishmael do tishuva, the proper way and drop their false ways. Everyone agrees that this will happen, but people like Rav Kahane would say after G-d's might would be shown in the world and nations will Fear G-d, while in this shiur at least Rav Aderet seems to imply with love (but it might be motivated by many of the Haredi outlook of everything for the best, and them sometimes giving too much Lekah Zihut, even when they (we) are being killed.

What means "Lekah Zihut"?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I like the view of Rabbi Mordechai Aderet. I have never understood this passage of the Bible before. I thought that the behaviour of Jakob was arguable, but on the other hand it was G-d's will that he will get the blessing.

So is Aderet's explanation a good way to understand the problem. That Jacob got the blessing is right, but that he took it by himself and with a lie was wrong.

The consequence was that Esaus descendence hate Jacobs descendence.

But there is in my oppinion a problem:
 
According to the bible is the "curse" in this case the hate of Esaus descendence towards Ismaels descendence only on the children who follow the ways of their fathers.

That means in the end, that anti-semitism exists today, because Jews are lying and cheating. If they would be all righteous, there will be no anti-semitism anymore.

I don't know 

 Thats why I do not agree with him, and definitly the Kahanist way (as one can see by reading Rav Kahane's ZTL HYD and Benyamin Kahane's ZTL HYD books) would totaly disagree. But he does point out some good in that the goal of the world is that even Esav and Ishmael do tishuva, the proper way and drop their false ways. Everyone agrees that this will happen, but people like Rav Kahane would say after G-d's might would be shown in the world and nations will Fear G-d, while in this shiur at least Rav Aderet seems to imply with love (but it might be motivated by many of the Haredi outlook of everything for the best, and them sometimes giving too much Lekah Zihut, even when they (we) are being killed.

What means "Lekah Zihut"?

 In a postive light.
 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yes i think this is true there ar many Jews who are evil and enemies of the rightgous too many reform and leftists and even some nazi Jews

 I do no think that was what he was implying at alll. I know that because he talked about Yakov, and he talked about Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai criticizing the Romans, and thus having to run away from them. And these were some of the greatest people in history. For each one the world stood in their merit.
 But whatever I will listin to it again, to better understand.

Continuation: Yea, im listining now again, and he is saying about not judging and looking in a positive light towards everyone Jews and non-Jews. And that Hashe-m wants everyone to do a complete repentence.

[Ulli]

I wish from my heart, that everybody would be able to do complete repentance. But this will not happen. So we have to weight the sides of "Lekah Zihut" and "vigilance".