Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles

Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??

<< < (17/42) > >>

Dr. Dan:

--- Quote from: C.F. on June 13, 2008, 11:31:24 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on June 12, 2008, 11:17:24 PM ---I think that in an idealistic society, sex should NOT be done before marraige.  Our society is so screwed up-Jewish and non Jewish.  Being that it is that way and that most of us live in these societies, pre marital sex should be discouraged.  However, speaking for men, sometimes, they need to get it out of their system in order to be a better husband...Or if possible, marry younger.  Except our society doesn't allow the latter.

The problem here is that there way too much focus on sex and less focus on love.  To many, it is SUCH A SIN to have pre-marital sex that it some will push their children to get married younger so that they dont' live or think in sin.  However, it's NOT JUST about sex!!!  It's unfortunate our society has become too sexified.  It's either something awesome or great or a terrible sin.  It's niether. It's a natural thing that is awesome and definately not a sin.  But sex shouldn't just be sex...that's just for animals to do.  We are humans with souls who understand and can learn love...and that's what it's about. If we can love a single person of the opposite sex and marry them, the sex makes sense...all the rest is really a waste of time and brain and soul.

But here's the clincher: How would I know this if I were still a virgin?  How could I understand this if I stayed a virgin?  In other words, sometimes, some people need to wander the desert for 40 years to appreciate the promised land, rather than go direct straight through.  Sometimes eating from the Tree of Knowledge will enhance our brains to do right and know wrong...Things like that can create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.\

I shoudl add however, that the frustration of not doing it before marraige can also create beautiful poetry and wonderful dreams.

--- End quote ---
Dr. Dan, the problem with all of the above is that this is all how the world wants us to think. There is no reason why people need to sexually experiment in order to know themselves better, or prepare themselves for marriage. That is a cultural lie that comes straight from Satan. I guarantee you--check the divorce rate for people who were sexually involved prior to marriage and those who saved themselves.

It's really not too difficult for two virgins to be sexually aware and conscious while remaining pure. Two virgins can have frank and open discussions about the birds and the bees and gauge each other's needs/likes/dislikes long before marriage and use this to determine whether or not they are right for each other. All it takes is a willingness to share and make ourselves vulnerable before someone we are interested in.

It is so much harder to remain pure in this day and age than at any time before because our culture is so flooded and saturated with sex--billboards for strip clubs, everything on TV, everything in the movies, etc. It's difficult to completely abstain from the pop culture--or is it? You would be surprised at how much crap we willingly give access to. Maybe the answer to self-control is as easy as turning off the lame sitcoms.

Finally, Dan, I actually do think early marriage is an answer--heck, I wanted to marry at fifteen if you can get my drift.  ;) Unfortunately, teens in our society cannot support themselves, and are not socially trained to have that kind of maturity at that age (whereas in most of human history, people have been heading households at fourteen or so). They certainly are capable of that kind of responsibility, but nobody cares to teach it to them. So, it's just an intriguing theory at this point (though I think probably a very effective one).  :(

Chaimfan

--- End quote ---

Good post.

I feel that in an idealistic society, you would be 100% right.  But we live in evil times..in order to get to this idealism, it has to be gradual and not extreme over night.

Dr. Dan:

--- Quote from: Rubystars on June 13, 2008, 11:45:03 AM ---
--- Quote from: C.F. on June 13, 2008, 11:42:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: cosmokramer on June 13, 2008, 02:10:34 AM ---This is a split topic with me. I am not innocent, but I do believe that a person should wait until marriage. I have much more respect for a person that remains a virgin until then.

--- End quote ---
You know that it is never too late with G-d. You can save yourself from this point forward.

--- End quote ---

I've heard of people who have had sex deciding to have a second virginity where they decide from this point forward to save themselves for marriage. It's not really being a virgin again, but it is making a commitment to a moral way of life and doing the right thing in G-d's eyes.

--- End quote ---

If you allow me, I can tell you about my personal experience. 

WHen i was only a few years younger than Yaacov, I had the same idealism of waiting till marraige.  And I think I probably would have been able to pull it off until I thought I met the girl of my dreams.  We couldn't wait.  Marraige was out of the question for us.  We were both still in school. Niether of us had really ever dated many other before us.  We did it.  Thank Gd, it didn't work out for us.  But a pandora box opened and now I knew what it felt like.

Today, whether I were dating a virgin or not, it would be between me and her what we decide to do before marraige.  But the reality is, it's much much much much better even if in love, to wait till that Ketubah is signed and the marraige is consumated.  And for me, it's really really really really really hard to not do it being in love with someone and knowing what it feels like already to do it. 

However, there is a conflict with doing it to get it out of the system versus waiting completeley.  In the first relationship, I had nothing out of my system.  I was with a really nice girl, but she wasn't perfect for me.  She and her family had major flaws, but I was too innocent and blind to notice them.  If it had gotten to the point that we got married after several years of dating, I can assure all of you, there would be potential for divorce or a very unhappy marriage. Maturity was an issue, but it was also the desire to go out there and see what's out there. Luckily I have had the opportunity to date a lot since. 

Now, today, I have the experience, I have the knowledge, I'm much more mature.  I know what I want.  And now that I do know what I want and have experience, it's good for a woman who wants to be with a man who has it out of his system and has knowledge and experience on what to do in bed.  Some women, especially the ones who are still virgins until marraige, want to be with a man that knows what to do.  They don't want the "blind to lead the blind".

I"m not saying that guys should now just go out and have sex before marraige.  In fact, a couple can figure things out on their own and share the hottest sex imaginable as they grow older and wiser.

So anyway, my point is that i agree wtih CF and Bullcat and any parent with young kids and teenagers... Please encourage them to wait till they get married. Don't let peer pressure get to them.  Make sure they fall in love with the right person...not just with anyone of the opposite sex.  The right person with the right family.  Better that if they are virgins at that time they are with someone who can hold back until the marraige is consumated.  And better if he is able to provide for a home for his family than be still in school living in a tiny dorm room.  In modern times, it's not easy to have all that all at once.
That's the only thing I disagree wtih with CF. 

In reality, however, I would want a study to be done on the success of marraiges with those who had premarital sex either with their future spouses or multiple partners before they got married versus those who stayed virgins, and see if there is statistic significance.

Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

Dr. Dan:

--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on June 13, 2008, 04:01:48 PM ---For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

--- End quote ---

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism... Please no more videos...Just tell us what you know.

Tzvi Ben Roshel1:

--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 04:32:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on June 13, 2008, 04:01:48 PM ---For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
 For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
 Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
 And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
 
  Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.

--- End quote ---

ummm so you imply repentance is moot?  If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven?  I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism...

--- End quote ---

 Yes, and no. Its exactly the same thing as a women getting married and then being seperated from her husband, can we say and would any Rav (Orthodox) get her married before she get's a Ketuva, and is properly seperated from her real husband?
 Can we say that she regrets ever marrying her first husband and thus is allowed now for another automaticaly?
 Or even a women who's husband does not have a messenger (the whole process like they have done a long time ago, when the men would go to the army and he was missing for some time, and she is given a gett (divorce paper) , and the husband is lost, the women remains an Aguna, and cannot marry unless their were proper witnesses, etc that he is dead.
 
  I am not "super Ultra Orthodox"  ;D , and what I am saying is not that. Im not even bringing Misrash or Zohar on the severities of these sins, this is simple- Pshat Halacha and if one does want to do Tishuva it is possible, but before one would marry or date a girl who has done these things in the past should ponder the complexities of the problems that would come because of just one act. First find all the man she slept with, get them divorced, do this and then do that.... and on top of that still expecialy for a women her soul is attached to the first man she was with, and it will have an affect on their relationship, on their chidren, and on their eternity.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page