Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
Pre-Marital sex. What is your take??
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on June 13, 2008, 04:44:20 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 04:32:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on June 13, 2008, 04:01:48 PM ---For Jews- by the way it is not just simply an experience, and "no big deal" as some have stated, and posted. And the issue is not just about virgins or not. Its more then that, expecially for a female, and Askenazi men. And also the issue of Nidda for all.
For Jewish females- once they have contact it is an aspect of marriage, although this form of marriage, was cursed by Rava, it non the less is one of the 3 forms of marriage (today all 3 are done in the proper, way, but this still counts as marriage), SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim- "bastards" and a normal Jew is not allowed to knowingly marry them.
Another issue is that the overwealming majority of girls who would sleep around, even with 1 man would not go to the Mikva, and that is another aspect of a HUGG problem, to add to all the others.
And if a couple would say okay, we are virgins, but we want to be physically together before marriage, and we will be together forever (as is these relationships last), and even if with the chance she will go to the Mikva, even then it is still a cursed relationship, (Rava put a curse on people who would do that) , but it is not as bad as the rest.
Also for those who trash, or negativity (lashon hara) can be interpreted from their statements even if they do not intend it- I would also like to let you know, and I am not lying, that I went to a mixed boys and girls Yeshiva, where most of the people including myself came from public school, and I would say that the overwealming majority of the girls their were totaly clean and it would be unthinkable for them to have any relations before marriage.
--- End quote ---
ummm so you imply repentance is moot? If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven? I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism...
--- End quote ---
Yes, and no. Its exactly the same thing as a women getting married and then being seperated from her husband, can we say and would any Rav (Orthodox) get her married before she get's a Ketuva, and is properly seperated from her real husband?
Can we say that she regrets ever marrying her first husband and thus is allowed now for another automaticaly?
Or even a women who's husband does not have a messenger (the whole process like they have done a long time ago, when the men would go to the army and he was missing for some time, and she is given a gett (divorce paper) , and the husband is lost, the women remains an Aguna, and cannot marry unless their were proper witnesses, etc that he is dead.
I am not "super Ultra Orthodox" ;D , and what I am saying is not that. Im not even bringing Misrash or Zohar on the severities of these sins, this is simple- Pshat Halacha and if one does want to do Tishuva it is possible, but before one would marry or date a girl who has done these things in the past should ponder the complexities of the problems that would come because of just one act. First find all the man she slept with, get them divorced, do this and then do that.... and on top of that still expecialy for a women her soul is attached to the first man she was with, and it will have an affect on their relationship, on their chidren, and on their eternity.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for the explanation. It's a worthy point of view.
TruthSpreader:
I think all men and women should wait until after they are married before even thinking about having sex.
MassuhDGoodName:
Re: "...ummm so you imply repentance is moot? If we sin in this aspect we will forever be cursed? The Book of Life is closed automatically? Or must we all of a sudden become Super Ultra Orthodox like you? and then we will be forgiven? I don't understand this type of thinking and firebrand judaism..."
That's right!
Have sex out of the restrictions placed on you by Torah, and you are going to hell and burn in torment and sulfur fire for eternity!
And if you have a cigarette after the "sex", you're not only going to burn in eternal hell, but you're going to do it exactly 10 years earlier than you would have had you not smoked that cigarette.
Just look at Tim Russert -- that's what sinners have to look forward to!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on June 13, 2008, 04:01:48 PM --- SOO for those guys who say that they dont mind marrying a non-virgin (unless she was married and then properly-Halahically divorced), they put themselves and her as Hayav Mita- thats the punishment of Death if they knew she slept with another man- which is a form of marriage, thus she was married to him and now is getting married to another man. On top of that the kids are mamzerim-
--- End quote ---
Tzvi. There needs to be kavanah. In this day and age, you cannot say that a single Jewish woman and man lying together after a wild night on the town was ACTUALLY them getting married. It wasn't. It was them lying together. There is a phrase that the man says to announce it to mekadesh the woman. This is how it is done today. Am I wrong? You can't impose the old standards on today and say retroactively all these having premarital sex are actually marrying each other without realizing it..... Can you? Wouldn't that be sort of throwing the torah she bal peh out the window?
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on June 13, 2008, 01:20:26 PM ---
Good post.
I feel that in an idealistic society, you would be 100% right. But we live in evil times..in order to get to this idealism, it has to be gradual and not extreme over night.
--- End quote ---
Why thank you. I do know what you are getting at, but it's not that complicated, at least to begin with. In the short term, there is nothing wrong with telling average citizens to keep their pants zipped.
In the longer term we can discuss the various social problems that encourage fornication. But nothing takes away from the fact that we all possess self-control; we are not beasts.
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