Author Topic: What-if 1967...  (Read 7975 times)

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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What-if 1967...
« on: January 18, 2007, 03:43:51 AM »
What if Ben-GAYrion did not listen to LBJ in 1967 and continued the war to its fullest? We all already know that Israel swept Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt AT THE SAME TIME within six days (of course, major fighting was done in three) and suffered essentially no casualties of its own at a time that it had extremely inferior military hardware and training compared to those enemies--so what could have been if the war went on longer?

Would Israel have been able to take Iraq? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? The Soviet Union? As a Christian Zionist who firmly knows how real miracles are I have an answer to that, but nonetheless want to hear what you think.  ;)


Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2007, 07:07:41 AM »
Ben Gurion was not PM in 67 it was Levi Eshkol
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2007, 03:10:57 PM »
Ben Gurion was not PM in 67 it was Levi Eshkol
Oops, my bad... d'oh!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2007, 03:13:35 PM »
BTW how exactly could LBJ have forced Israel to stop? What was he gonna do--invade it? I just don't think there were enough anti-Semites in America and the military to stand for that.

He had no leverage over Israel, because at that time we were not supplying it with money or weapons yet. Most Israeli weapon systems of the era were cast-off British hardware (i.e. Centurion tanks) or copies of French stuff (i.e. Nesher fighter jets).

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2007, 10:00:20 PM »
There are still self-hating Jews in the State Dep't. What of Wolfowitz, Fleischer, Ross, etc?

Sure they may not be quite as odious as Fageline Albright, but they're bad enough...

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 03:28:23 AM »
I thought Fleischer is all behind this "road map" bullcrap and these summits with Abbas and Condoleeza.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 03:36:19 PM »
I hope they all do--all the self-hating Jews and all the Gentile anti-semites.  >:(

BTW you actually have started an interesting new topic. How much is one nation REALLY able to control the purse of another? At the risk of being called a Buchananite (and he can go to hell too) isolationist, I'd like to propose that in the case of developed nations not much. China suddenly seizing all of our holdings would be an economic hiccup, to say the least, but without the round-the-clock job and industry drain that that evil empire is sucking us dry with, we would be immensely more powerful in the long run.

I think the same would be even more true of Israel. Much of Israel's commerce is actually with Europe and Asia, not just America. I really doubt the Euronazis would ever fully cut off trade with Zion because it likes her products too much. Israel has a rather advanced First World economy that is primarily held back by excessive state involvment in industry and multimillion-dollar Arab welfare drains.

In short, the United States completely abandoning Israel would be an immensely good thing for the Jewish state if self-reliance for the latter is the desired objective.

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2007, 05:10:37 PM »
Chaimfan, you should know that LBJ put immense pressure on Israel including some very nasty threats to try to prevent the miracle of 67. Eshkol may have been a self-hater (in fact he most defintely was) but he didnt want the Jewish people destroyed. He launched the premtive strike because of Begin, (who wasnt a dick yet) but didnt annex the territory and expel the Human cancer that is the Arab because of US pressure, and fear of US pressure.
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Offline MarZutra

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2007, 05:13:21 PM »
What if Ben-GAYrion did not listen to LBJ in 1967 and continued the war to its fullest? We all already know that Israel swept Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt AT THE SAME TIME within six days (of course, major fighting was done in three) and suffered essentially no casualties of its own at a time that it had extremely inferior military hardware and training compared to those enemies--so what could have been if the war went on longer?

Would Israel have been able to take Iraq? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? The Soviet Union? As a Christian Zionist who firmly knows how real miracles are I have an answer to that, but nonetheless want to hear what you think.  ;)
I guess my 2cents come it that I wish it would have happened.  If the Israeli war would have lasted a month instead of 6 Days the Islamic World would have been a Jewish World.  The only problem I can see with this question is that Russia was the only power standing in Israel's way from not attaining unconditional surrender, with US approval of course, which as continued to fuel this farsical conflict as I type.  Yes Israel shot down many Soviet pilots but I do not think Israel would have been in the position to withstand an all out Soviet invasion.  During those days Russia had perhaps the largest and most equipped navy bases in World history on the East coast of Africa.  They also were far more equipped than Israel in both nuclear and conventional weapons.  One might argue this point but soviet Russia has what Hitler had not, oil and resources to prolong any military conflict.  My opinion is that, as propagated, what stopped the War was the threat of nuclear war between the powers: America siding with Israel and Russia with Egypt and Syria.  This I buy only partially because I feel the Americans, British and Russians were working together, then as they do today.....  

I still hold to my opinion that if America would have nuked Moscow instead of Nakasaki this World would have been a far better place and Israel would today be ALL of "Palestine" without their Muslim population.....  The benefits of this one cannot even argue rationally.... ;)
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Hail Columbia

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2007, 06:09:07 PM »
What if Ben-GAYrion did not listen to LBJ in 1967 and continued the war to its fullest? We all already know that Israel swept Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt AT THE SAME TIME within six days (of course, major fighting was done in three) and suffered essentially no casualties of its own at a time that it had extremely inferior military hardware and training compared to those enemies--so what could have been if the war went on longer?

Would Israel have been able to take Iraq? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? The Soviet Union? As a Christian Zionist who firmly knows how real miracles are I have an answer to that, but nonetheless want to hear what you think.  ;)
I guess my 2cents come it that I wish it would have happened.  If the Israeli war would have lasted a month instead of 6 Days the Islamic World would have been a Jewish World.  The only problem I can see with this question is that Russia was the only power standing in Israel's way from not attaining unconditional surrender, with US approval of course, which as continued to fuel this farsical conflict as I type.  Yes Israel shot down many Soviet pilots but I do not think Israel would have been in the position to withstand an all out Soviet invasion.  During those days Russia had perhaps the largest and most equipped navy bases in World history on the East coast of Africa.  They also were far more equipped than Israel in both nuclear and conventional weapons.  One might argue this point but soviet Russia has what Hitler had not, oil and resources to prolong any military conflict.  My opinion is that, as propagated, what stopped the War was the threat of nuclear war between the powers: America siding with Israel and Russia with Egypt and Syria.  This I buy only partially because I feel the Americans, British and Russians were working together, then as they do today..... 

I still hold to my opinion that if America would have nuked Moscow instead of Nakasaki this World would have been a far better place and Israel would today be ALL of "Palestine" without their Muslim population.....  The benefits of this one cannot even argue rationally.... ;)

If the Soviets invaded Israel, then it would be in line with Biblical prophecy.  See Ezekiel for more details.


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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2007, 06:49:03 PM »
Chaimfan, you should know that LBJ put immense pressure on Israel including some very nasty threats to try to prevent the miracle of 67. Eshkol may have been a self-hater (in fact he most defintely was) but he didnt want the Jewish people destroyed. He launched the premtive strike because of Begin, (who wasnt a dick yet) but didnt annex the territory and expel the Human cancer that is the Arab because of US pressure, and fear of US pressure.
In the Western world, most threats are idle threats. How much saber-rattling came out of the halls of the Knesset when Hezbollah invaded Israel and massacred/kidnapped those soldiers? A lot. Did anything come of it? No. How much does Bush threaten the insurgents? A lot. Does he have any intention of stopping them? I think you know the answer to that.

If LBJ didn't do crap about the commie hordes overrunning Southeast Asia, what makes you think he would have lifted a finger against peace-loving and Westernized Jews? Nobody would have cooperated with a war against Israel even if he actually wanted to wage one.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2007, 06:59:38 PM »
I can see with this question is that Russia was the only power standing in Israel's way from not attaining unconditional surrender, with US approval of course, which as continued to fuel this farsical conflict as I type.
Umm, I don't think so. With G-d any victory is possible. Israel would have whipped the Soviets royally if not afraid of the United States. It would have taken a while (several months vs. a few days), and it would not have been a pleasant experience for the little Jewish homeland, but there's no doubt with me that it would prevail.

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Yes Israel shot down many Soviet pilots but I do not think Israel would have been in the position to withstand an all out Soviet invasion
Read up on the incompetence of the Red Army when taking on pitiful little FINLAND. Also consider how difficult it was for them to beat the Nazis even after the West had pounded the Reich into rubble over the course of four years and basically reduced it to a Paleolithic civilization.  

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During those days Russia had perhaps the largest and most equipped navy bases in World history on the East coast of Africa.  They also were far more equipped than Israel in both nuclear and conventional weapons.
So were all the Arab armies, which I believe were lavishly equipped with Russian observers and perhaps even "volunteers"... what good did that do any of them?  Russian troops would certainly have fought better than Arabs, but how much better? Regardless of equipment, the qualitative difference between Soviet and Western forces of the era was on the order of magnitude of the difference between the U.S. Army and Mexican federales.

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One might argue this point but soviet Russia has what Hitler had not, oil and resources to prolong any military conflict.

Soviet Russia lasted as long as it did because after WWII (which it won ONLY because of the Allies [read United States]), it never had to do any actual fighting. As soon as it did (Afghanistan), the entire rotten Babylon fell apart rather quickly, and in a rather grandiose manner. G-d is bigger than any military foe.

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My opinion is that, as propagated, what stopped the War was the threat of nuclear war between the powers: America siding with Israel and Russia with Egypt and Syria.
America didn't support Israel at all during the war.

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This I buy only partially because I feel the Americans, British and Russians were working together, then as they do today...
This is no excuse for cowardice by Israeli leaders.

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I still hold to my opinion that if America would have nuked Moscow instead of Nakasaki this World would have been a far better place
Yes, yes, but Western leaders all secretly idolized Stalin and the Soviet "paradise". It is common knowledge that FDR considered Stalin to be a close friend. Stalin got the jet MiG because Britain sent them the technology. Much like all Western leaders today secretly (or not so secretly) idolize the Saudi/Kuwaiti/Pakistani butchers.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 07:02:38 PM by Chaimfan »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2007, 07:01:13 PM »
If the Soviets invaded Israel
...they would have been in for one epic humiliation.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2007, 09:09:10 AM »
Firstly, I do appreciate your question very much and the stimulating debate/converstations.  America did step in against Soviet Russia to stop the Six Day War which is exactly why there has been no unconditional surrender leaving Israel virtually in a state of active war ever since.  In fact they stepped in on the side of the Arabs in every conflict since then. 

To compare Russia of 1912-1945 with Soviet Russia of the 1960's until today would be a very big mistake.  They are apples and oranges.  They are two separate and wholely different nations.  Soviet Russia had one of the largest and well equipt armies in World history second only to a declining politically strapped America.  In some areas, today, Russian Army is superior to Americas but we will never see it due to their closed media and continuing dictatorial rule.  While America through treasonous leaders and subersive political activists (like Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton for examples) were working to disarm itself while Russia was on full arm mode, mainly through American financial aid: Lend Lease and other agreements. 

I feel Soviet Russia, without western assistance of Afgans and western media and political pressure streaming against it, a would have over run Afghanistan in a matter of hours and  probably be running Iran today....which it already is by proxy.  The only way Israel could ever defeat the Soviet Union in the 1960's-1970's or even today would be via nuclear and a first strike with HaShem's blessings of course.  Any prolonged war, unaided by any foreign power, would be suicidal for tiny Israel.  Israel is one of the best armies on the planet today but still not classed as a "super power".  There is only one and, I feel a sleeping other: Russia.  The past 25 years of silence has only expanded Russian economy while America's declines.  Russia has continued to advance unharmed and unpolitically mollested from the media and anti-war crowds for the past 25 years.  Russia and China have and still have military pacts and training exercises.  Regan didn't defeat Communism in the 1980's, that is just as farsical as "Martin Luther King Day".  He unleashed communism.  There are far more socialist/lennist nations on Earth today than there were before Regan.  China, Cuba and North Korea are all still there while any others that were "communist sattilite" states which "broke away" are today Socialist nations, part of the Globalists One World Government and are continually aligned with Russia/Communist voting blocks within the UN against the West and of course Israel. 

I feel you are comparing apples and oranges with Russia of '43 to russia 67, 73, 87 or 2006.  They are a sleeping menace to the world...pure and simple.  In fact, I feel, America today shouldn't only hit Iran but hit Moscow as well.  Bush identified any country that aids terrorists would be an enemy of America.  Well Russia has been aiding terrorism/ists since the 1960's with China, Cuba now North Korea, France, Venesula and even Israel sends money and weaponry to "The PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi  People". 

I agree with you that it is very possible for Israel to have beaten Russia but most probably by going nuclear first and with HaShem's finger on the red button... :)  I disagree in part and agree in others...

PS: This is such an interesting debate, I had to send the exact question to a friend of mine who faught in Israel's struggles for his views.  I hold the belief that MOST of the world's problems would disappear as soon as Russia disappears...which should have been done in '45.   ;)

 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 01:24:44 PM by Marzutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2007, 10:36:07 AM »
Your exactly right Marzutra I was thinking exactly the samething when I was on earlier this morning. Israel is pound for pound a powerhouse however her small size would not allow her to take on an adversary the likes of Russia. The reports of the Russian bears declawing are very premature and over rated. As always your posts are excellent and informative.
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Offline Johnson Brown

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2007, 01:58:21 PM »
You all seem to be living in a fantasy world, first of all Israel could not ever beat the soviet union without the U.S. so that is ridiculous to say.
As far as Hitting Iran and Russia first, how about China, Saudi Arabia, The Philippines, etc they are all terrorist states that are allowing terrorist to train there.
I hate to say it but when Russia controlled most of these countries we never had the problems like we do now, Iraq, North Korean and these other countries were kept in line.
Let democracy ring, right?

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2007, 11:22:33 AM »
IT'S A RATHER SIMPLE EQUATION:

NEITHER THE U.S.A. NOR U.S.S.R HAVE EVER DESIRED A PEACE.

BOTH FUEL THEIR ECONOMIES BY SELLING ARMAMENTS.

AS LONG AS CONFLICT IS THE STATUS QUO, TREMENDOUS WEALTH FLOWS TO THE SUPERPOWERS.

OTHERWISE, THEIR "ECONOMIC MIRACLES" WHICH THEY SO PROUDLY HAIL AS THE PROOF THAT "THEIR SYSTEM" IS THE BEST, WOULD COMPLETELY COLLAPSE OVERNIGHT INTO ECONOMIC DEPRESSION AND FINANCIAL CHAOS.

DON'T BELIEVE IT?.....DO THE MATH!

"DEMOCRACY", "LIBERTY", "FREEDOM", "CLASSLESS SOCIETY", "EQUALITY", ETC. ...  THESE ARE THE PROPAGANDA TERMS THAT THE ELITISTS SELL TO THE MAJORITY.

PROPAGANDA HAVING BEEN DEFINED AS "the art of convincing others of that which you yourself do not believe to be true").

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2007, 12:01:40 PM »
Johnson, on paper Israel couldnt beat Russia and on paper Israel couldnt defeat the entire Arab and Muslim world. The simple truth is it is all in Hashem's hands obviously we are forbidden from depending on miracles and must do everything physically possible to defeat our enemies but the victory is only in the hands of Hashem.
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Offline MarZutra

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2007, 03:40:36 PM »
Johnson, on paper Israel couldnt beat Russia and on paper Israel couldnt defeat the entire Arab and Muslim world. The simple truth is it is all in Hashem's hands obviously we are forbidden from depending on miracles and must do everything physically possible to defeat our enemies but the victory is only in the hands of Hashem.
I agree with you 100%.  This is why I said above that, and expressed before, for any Israeli victory over a bear like Russia would have to come as a massive multi-facetted surprise nuclear attack with HaShem's finger on the red button.  Which, I personally, am in agreement. The question then is the response of Russia's allies; North Korea, China, Pakistan etc. :-\

Following is the opinion of my friend Larry who faught in Israel's wars so I do believe his input would be most applicable, appreciated and respected.  Enjoy: :)

 
The question of poor ol' Levi Eshkol and LBJ?   First Israel did not sweep all armies at the same time really they fought a two front war with two enemies at first, as I recall.
 
President Nasser, implemented a blockade of the Straits of Tiran, on May 24th, 1967.  This waterway's international character, was recognized by the Egyptians in diplomatic notes, as far back as Jan. 1950.  According to the UN Charter, the suspension of innocent passage by blockade, is an act of belligerency.  From May 24th to the 27th , Israel was urged by the Western World to use restraint, president Johnson called it an "illegal act potentially damaging to peace."
 
On May 27th, Nasser boldly announced to the world. "The meaning of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel, adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel."  Later on the same day he stated to Western journalists that this was not over a border adjustment but he stated "Our objective will be the destruction of Israel."
 
Israel dearly pressed, owing to the fact that 90% of her oil supplies (the Shah's Iran, and Indonesia) came through those straits, still tried through diplomatic channels to get Nasser to dismantle the blockade.  Further she appealed to the maritime powers, who had guaranteed innocent passage at the U.N. Law of the Sea convention of 1957, and was met with silence or secret and non committal commiseration.
 
On May 30th, Nasser boasted publicly . . . ."the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, are poised at the borders of Israel . . . . the critical hour has arrived. . . " On May 31st, Iraqi, Sudanese, Algerian, and even Kuwaiti forces were rushing in contingents to take up positions.
 
Up till the evening of June 4th, Israel tried through diplomatic measures to get innocent passage restored, despite the tightening noose of Nasser's Pan Arabian destiny.
 
Long after, when all those who have investigated the record of proven events, including the present reputed international jurists, will define. The closure of the international waterway was the casus belli of the June 1967 campaign.  The Israeli actions after were a defensive response to a premeditated strangulation.
 
A textbook example of an evolving Monash-Fuller plan of battle (Plan 1919, or the rolling front, also known as Blitzkrieg) are admirably demonstrated by the Gavish, Tal, Yoffe, and Sharon, 's operational dispatches recorded in Sinai, June 5th to 8th 1967.  The brilliance of both conception and execution of the plan almost defies belief of the most experienced of NATO officers.
 
We know now, with a 20/20 hindsight, that as of May 31st 1967, there was an Egyptian force of approximately 100,000 regulars and 1000 tanks in Sinai ALONE.  Their operational structure as 7 divisions and 1 brigade.  These were: 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 20th Infantry divisions. The 4th Armoured division, the Shazli force (a full Armoured division + 1 motorized infantry brigade, under a charismatic independent commander Gen. Shazli), and an Armoured brigade with 2 battalions of artillery. These EIGHT semi-independent armed units were deployed in a strong defensive position which also provided an excellent springboard for offensive action. 
 
This was only in the Sinai peninsula, the other Arab armies, especially in Syria and Jordan were being deployed by the Egyptian general staff at the same time.  It was at this military machine that Israel struck on the morning of June 5th.  Despite efforts to get King Hussein to keep Jordan out of that war, at 11 am on June 5, 1967 Jordanian artillery located in Ramallah started shelling downtown Tel Aviv and Ramat Gan, while other Jordanian units started an assault on Jerusalem.  Syria was suppose to join the fray but did not and instead bellicosely harassed the Galilee with artillery fire keeping safe in their bunkers on the heights.  So Israel fought a hard and painful two front war.  Vets I knew after told me that the Jordanians were tough and some places literally changed hands three times.  The Egyptians were delusional and poorly led and many ran when they hit any fighting (quite different in 1973).  But there is no such thing as " essentially no casualties  "  it is true that the nation was lucky but over 264 Israeli lads were killed and some 1250 were wounded, some are still maimed or blinded from those June 67 days. Over 60 % were lost on the Jordanian front.  That means by the way some 1500 families were ruptured and traumatized.  To put that in a Canadian context at the time it would mean over 16,000 Canadian households would have felt the consequences of such a "victorious" war.   But essentially Israel faced "ayin brere" (no choice) as the above demonstrates.  On day four the Zahal had effectively demolished the Egyptians and Jordanians and then we have since discovered the men of the Zahal ignored the politicians in the Kenneset and took action on the real culprits who had instigated that war Syria.  It was really over by the evening of the fifth day and day six was mopping up.
 
It was those indefensible borders of tiny Israel on June 4th 1967 that made the Arabs so confident of victory that they sang out their intolerant intent to the whole world.  In recognition of the truth the UN adopted resolution 242 with the careful wording that Israel not be forced to return to borders that encouraged aggression.  Therefore the wording was "from territories occupied in the recent conflict" it does not call for "all territories" and it further says that there must be termination of belligerency and a recognition of sovereignty before any said territories are relinquished. 
 
Its not true that the Israelis were with inferior training or with inferior equipment they understood the weapon systems they used and its maximum potential and even more important knew how to fix it and make it function to it's limitations.  The Arabs had no such option except the Jordanians.  But the Jordanians had a limitation, they had specialists who could repair a tank in the field but unlike the Israelis whom every crew could repair and improvise their own equipment the Jordanians had shop pools who moved with their armour or guns, the Egyptians were pathetic, over 60% of their soldiers could not read, if equipment broke it had to be towed to shop pools run by German and Russian specialists who were not allowed to go in the van of the army.  The Syrians were even worse off. 
 
Iraq had no common border with Israel,  though it sent half baked volunteers Israeli politicians could not have sold either the Zahal or the public on such a venture to a country 300 miles from home.  Also the logistics of supplying a force on such an expedition, the distances of it's supply lines were beyond the nation's means at that time.   Saudi Arabia's size and distances were even more daunting than Iraq besides that would have outraged the British and the Americans, Israel would have been seen as gone crazy.   As for Iran and Turkey?? sorry you go to war with dangerous active enemies that are effectively doing disabling deeds, not with potential enemies or blustering and ineffective enemies.  Indeed at the time of 1967 both Turkey and Iran were on friendly terms with Israel, Turkey is still on good terms with Israel and maintains both diplomatic, economic and military cooperation.  In 1967 Turkey provided both material stuffs and weapons and Iran sold Israel more than 80% of its oil. 

As for Russia, Israel understood Russia better than most, if you don't attack Russia they are not likely to attack you but if you do attack Russia they will hunt you down and destroy you.  Besides the logistics and supply lines are beyond the capabilities of all NATO let alone Israel.  No Israel even when they were able to do it as an air attack in June of 1982 knew better than to take on the Russian bear, in 1967 it would have been plain stupid, even today it would be insanity. 
 
Shavouah tov, 
 
Larry 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 03:45:32 PM by Marzutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2007, 01:37:05 AM »
Guys, the problem is that you are approaching this question from a rationalistic view, rather than belief in the intervention of G-d. There was physically no way for Israel to win in 1948, 1967, or 1973 (the last case featuring Israel being at one point a couple hours from being completely overrun by the Syrians and Egyptians). The Lord brought about these astonishing victories and he would have continued to bless Israel if she had wished to defy world anti-Semites and continue fighting in his name.

Your comments on Russia throughout history are only half-right in my estimation. Russia today is more threatening than it was in 1940 in the sense that Mexico today is more threatening than in Pancho Villa's day. The illegals and raiders back then had bolt-action rifles and six-shooters. The raiders and drugrunners today have AKs, (Russian-made) RPGs, silenced submachine guns, and in some cases even low-caliber antiarmor pieces and antiaircraft rockets. When you compare the Mexican economy of today--even if completely dependent on narcotics, remittances from illegals abroad, drunk college students, and outsourced Western factories--with that of 1910 (which was based on, basically, nothing), the difference is even more shocking. Yet would anybody seriously argue that Mexico today is a substantially more formidable opponent than a century ago? Mexico is a mortal threat and menace BECAUSE the United States refuses to lift a finger to stop it, not because it has the power to destroy our country in an all-out war.

Likewise Russia is not a whole lot more than a cold Mexico with nukes today. On paper it has an extremely well-trained and equipped military. In reality most Russian soldiers are aging vodkaholics and AIDS-infected drug addicts. Is a country run entirely by the mafia and street gangs, whose population shrinks by 1 or 2% a year and where women have seven abortions each in their lifetime, and is the world capital of child sex tourism one that really has its act together? I think not. If you doubt that Russia is far from a lean, mean, tiger of a foe, answer this--who has more to eat: the average modern American or the average modern Russian? Yeah, it's still a lot more dangerous than any Arab state because it's white and still has quite a bit of science, but in practice the demographic and moral problems that are gradually destroying America are amplified in the Bear about a hundredfold.

Yes, Russia is still a Marxist tyranny run by an extremely dangerous and fanatical Putin, but her prime means of sowing evil is by supplying other satanic states, not directly fighting other nations. The fact that he must be the unseen hand controlling Iran, Hezbollah, North Korea, etc. and has them fight his battles is proof that Putin knows Russia does not have the strength or desire to have a traditional war with the West, not that it does.

G-d does not want Israel to fear any entity but him.

Edit: Russia's income today is entirely dependent on oil/natural gas and sales of weapons to rogue nations and groups. If the U.S. got the balls to start using its enormous blessings in Alaska and off the California coast, the price of fossil fuels would nosedive and Russians would be starving all over again like in the late 80s/early 90s.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 01:44:54 AM by Chaimfan »

Offline MarZutra

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2007, 07:59:24 AM »
I'd like to add something to my agreement with your opinions.  Mexico, next to drugs, has America as its largest importer of oil.  Savage came up with the Oil for Illegals plan...lol

Russia may be what you say but the average Russian man is far more ruthless than the average Brit, Canadian or American.  Take a look at their Russian mafia here in the west.  Far more dangerous than the Italian, Black or Asian.  You are 100% correct about Russia always fighting wars by proxy.  They have been doing so since 1917 with the direct help of Cuba and Communist China.  The Cubans actually faught with the Arab occupiers, they trained and fought in the revolutions in Africa and south America.  All funded and organized by Russia.   This is ironic due to the fact that to this day, the only real thing other than arms and natural resources keeping Russia alive is massive injections from Canada, America, Britain and other Western nations that haven't yet become fully Socialist and totally bankrupted which is true for every Communist Nation.  China would collapse if America changed its foreign policy.  Russia the same when they end their financial injections and too North Korea.  Cuba is a little different because most of their support comes not only from Russia and China but countries like Spain, France and South America...

But, the fact that Russia is one massive country, and with advanced weaponry and a socio-political brainwashing ideology which sees no G-d, no-morality, no-eternal truths and human beings like ants....the Russians if it was politically in their interests (and could do so) would attack another nation like Afghanistan if they knew America wouldn't step in.  This hypothetical question only is in need of hypothetical answers.  It isn't Israel's job to defend the West, but it is the West's job to defend the entire Free World....which was totally abandoned at Yalta, again in the Korean War, again in Vietnam and now has become a partner with Communism rather than an enemy.  If one doubts this one can either look at the tragic life of Barry Goldwater who was ruinded by the Liberal power elite who are very pro-Russia/Socialism and today with the totally fraudulant political systems in most Western "democracies"/"republics".  You have Tony Blair who is a member of the Fabian Society you have Ghorge Wahabbi Bush who is, in deed, more left than any of his previous Presidents.  The fact that it is a Black Muslim agaisnt a Communist Hag for the Dems show that both parties are really one big debased machine to socialize and VANQUISH America..

I've long held the belief that Russia was a cancer, like Islam, on the face of this Earth that must be obliterated not contained and most certainly not actively assisted as we see today.  For the last 100 years Fabian Socialism has infected all areas of Western society, gradually shifting us all into International Socialism.  As Golitsyn and Angleton stated, and I agree with, that most organizations in the Western nations have become so infested with KGB actives or Russian/Communist/Socialist sympathizers which is why our education never mentions socialism unless promoting it and its advancers, no mention of Communism but only Nazism, media which is abhorrently Liberal, social policies and political policies which are “progressing” every aspect of today’s defunct Russia.  Edward Mandel House, Alger Hiss, Owen Lattimore of the past and John Kerry, Nanci Palossi, Hillary Sodom Arafat, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton: CFR, Trilateral Commission, Fabian Society, Round Table Group, Pugwash Group and the Bilderberg Group etc. of today.

Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea etc. are all enemies of the free World with the former Republic of USA at its head but if one looks around today, since the fall of the Berlin Wall there are far more Marxist/Socialist nations today than Christian democracies of old which allows me to conclude that there had to be a deal with Kennedy and the Russians to keep Cuba alive and also with Regan to put on the show of “defeating” Communism when he actually unleashed it onto the sleeping and dumbed down World.

It is all one big sham and may East vs. West happen and the sooner the better.  We in the West need to WIPE OUT COMMUNISM/International Socialism and its Islamic imperialist friend.  But this will never happen because it is all part of this One World Government ruling the dumbed down ant hill: Socialist World Economic Community.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 08:05:31 AM by Marzutra »
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2007, 11:09:35 AM »
I hope they all do--all the self-hating Jews and all the Gentile anti-semites.  >:(

BTW you actually have started an interesting new topic. How much is one nation REALLY able to control the purse of another? At the risk of being called a Buchananite (and he can go to hell too) isolationist, I'd like to propose that in the case of developed nations not much. China suddenly seizing all of our holdings would be an economic hiccup, to say the least, but without the round-the-clock job and industry drain that that evil empire is sucking us dry with, we would be immensely more powerful in the long run.

I think the same would be even more true of Israel. Much of Israel's commerce is actually with Europe and Asia, not just America. I really doubt the Euronazis would ever fully cut off trade with Zion because it likes her products too much. Israel has a rather advanced First World economy that is primarily held back by excessive state involvment in industry and multimillion-dollar Arab welfare drains.

In short, the United States completely abandoning Israel would be an immensely good thing for the Jewish state if self-reliance for the latter is the desired objective.


But a lot of the people proposing that the US abandon any support for Israel, advocate for Israel to withdraw to 1948 borders. 

Offline cosmokramer

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2007, 12:42:53 PM »
Israel would have been rid of all Arabs and greatly increased in size had Moshe Dayan not gone after the Arab refugees.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2007, 02:59:18 PM »
Israel would have been rid of all Arabs and greatly increased in size had Moshe Dayan not gone after the Arab refugees.


Moshe Dayan brought Arabs back to Israel? 

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: What-if 1967...
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2007, 03:29:48 PM »
he kept them from leaving
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban