Judaism as a Civilization?

[Boeregeneraal]

Judaism as a Civilization.

So basically, does anyone know where i can find content that could support a thesis that Judaism is a Civilization in itself?
Are there any specific people or organizations supporting this idea? Do Jews want to belong to their own civilization, or just remain with the west?


TODA, and please help, i think this can be a really interesting discussion.

[Boeregeneraal]

well, see im doing an assignment on Samuel Huntington

Now, Jews have their own: religion (very important), language(Hebrew and Yiddish), culture, land (Eretz Yisrael), history, and perhaps somewhat ethnic (mainly cuacasian and semitic-but i would not use this)

[Ultra Requete]

Judaism is religion and Jewishness is culture, ethnicity and nationality But still Israel is western like Russia or Japan are or even China is becoming. Today only Islam can be called alternative civilization. Israel should not be pawn of globalism because it's a new form of old British or Roman Imperialism.

[Dr. Dan]

Jews are part of Western Civilization because Israel is a Western country. But Israel should be its own country and not reliant on alliances with Western countries.

You say "Judaism as a Civilization". There was actually a self-hating Jew who said that. He founded The Reconstructionist Movement. He said Judaism is no longer a religion but a civilization because his movement was nationalist but no longer believed that much in G-d but wanted to hold on to religion for tradition only. They are similar to Herzl Zionists.

Reform Jews on the otherhand said Judaism is only a religion and not a people and were opposed to Zionism because they wanted to blend in to Gentile countries and assimilate. But their brand of religion was not real Judaism.

what about conservative and orthodox movements?

[Dexter]

Judaism is not a civilization on itself.

[Zelhar]

Jews are a remnant of the extinct ancient Semitic civilization. Nowadays I think Jews think almost unanimously that they are part of Western civilization however not so long ago a big portion of the Jewish people lived in the Islamic world and was part of the Muslim civilization.

[JTFFan]

Jews are part of Western Civilization because Israel is a Western country. But Israel should be its own country and not reliant on alliances with Western countries.

You say "Judaism as a Civilization". There was actually a self-hating Jew who said that. He founded The Reconstructionist Movement. He said Judaism is no longer a religion but a civilization because his movement was nationalist but no longer believed that much in G-d but wanted to hold on to religion for tradition only. They are similar to Herzl Zionists.

Reform Jews on the otherhand said Judaism is only a religion and not a people and were opposed to Zionism because they wanted to blend in to Gentile countries and assimilate. But their brand of religion was not real Judaism.

Well said, agreed.

[q_q_]

Yes.

You have to define civilization first. But yes based on these definitions.

We have our own schools, and charedim are a very separate society.  A completely separate culture.

In a sense, different parts of america are different civilizations.  But all part of american civilizations.

definitions

dictionary.cambridge.org
1  [C or U] human society with its highly developed social organizations, or the culture and way of life of a society or country at a particular period in time

askoxford.com
 noun 1 an advanced stage or system of human social development.

[Zelhar]

Yes If you consider it as part of the western civilization. I think the Mesopotamian civilization is distinct from the Western civilization. If anything the Persian and the Arab civilizations inherited the Babylonian civilization.  

What about the Jews from Moorish Spain, they wrote in Arabic and Hebrew, I don't think they were westerners. And more recently- Jews in Iraq spoke Arabic as their first language. And
the Yemenite Jews- clearly they didn't belong to the western civilization when they lived in Yemen.

[q_q_]

iraqi jews have their culture,

morrocan jews their culture,

their own shuls.

european jews are not really split by geographic origin into different cultures. 

Of course the cultures reflect the surrounding gentile culture, in similarities and even differences, but they are still separate.

those definitions put culture to civilization.

Maybe you should define civilization before you start asking people..

Either that or ask what the definition of civilization is.

[Boeregeneraal]

well, based on Samuel Huntington's thesis, Jews really are their own civilization.

If orthodox and Catholic is such a difference that each become their own civilization, then Judaism definintely is its own civilization.


So is it basically just the reconstructionist movement(they sound like a bunch of whackos!)? Are there any books on this subject?
TODA

[q_q_]

well, based on Samuel Huntington's thesis, Jews really are their own civilization.

If orthodox and Catholic is such a difference that each become their own civilization, then Judaism definintely is its own civilization.


So is it basically just the reconstructionist movement(they sound like a bunch of whackos!)? Are there any books on this subject?
TODA

similar to reform, but probably worse. I think they reconstruct the bible or something.

actually, there is a british reform minister("rabbi") - Dr Jonathan Romain - that is trying to write his own bible with the "horrid" bits removed.   He thinks muslims shoudl do the same with their quran!

[White Israelite]

Jews are part of Western Civilization because Israel is a Western country. But Israel should be its own country and not reliant on alliances with Western countries.

You say "Judaism as a Civilization". There was actually a self-hating Jew who said that. He founded The Reconstructionist Movement. He said Judaism is no longer a religion but a civilization because his movement was nationalist but no longer believed that much in G-d but wanted to hold on to religion for tradition only. They are similar to Herzl Zionists.

Reform Jews on the otherhand said Judaism is only a religion and not a people and were opposed to Zionism because they wanted to blend in to Gentile countries and assimilate. But their brand of religion was not real Judaism.

What about conservative Judaism? Wasn't conservative Judaism pretty similar to Orthodox at one point? I think they even had the Beth Din and were quite respected compared to reform, but as of recent, I've heard conservative Judaism is not doing so well.

[Dr. Dan]

My only understanding of Conservative is that it is an American movement went to help Jews remain Jews but to be somewhat assimilated as well...There are some conservative Jews who are Shomer Shabbat and Shomer Kashrut etc etc...but that's few and far between.

I feel that the only philosophy to look towards is Torah Judaism and most Orthodox Rabbis pursue Judaism in that manner. Very few if any of the other movements seem to do that. The liberal of these groups try to change things and omit other things...We should know from history that when we add and omit things from the Torah we create a religion that may end up being as perverted as Islam.

[White Israelite]

My only understanding of Conservative is that it is an American movement went to help Jews remain Jews but to be somewhat assimilated as well...There are some conservative Jews who are Shomer Shabbat and Shomer Kashrut etc etc...but that's few and far between.

I feel that the only philosophy to look towards is Torah Judaism and most Orthodox Rabbis pursue Judaism in that manner. Very few if any of the other movements seem to do that. The liberal of these groups try to change things and omit other things...We should know from history that when we add and omit things from the Torah we create a religion that may end up being as perverted as Islam.

Oh, because one of my uncles married a woman who converted Conservative and she sad she had to go for a few years to study Judaism and had to have Mikvah something and the beth din, very similar to orthodox, so I figured at time time it must have been a bit more serious, think that was in the 70's.

[Zelhar]

My only understanding of Conservative is that it is an American movement went to help Jews remain Jews but to be somewhat assimilated as well...There are some conservative Jews who are Shomer Shabbat and Shomer Kashrut etc etc...but that's few and far between.

I feel that the only philosophy to look towards is Torah Judaism and most Orthodox Rabbis pursue Judaism in that manner. Very few if any of the other movements seem to do that. The liberal of these groups try to change things and omit other things...We should know from history that when we add and omit things from the Torah we create a religion that may end up being as perverted as Islam.

Oh, because one of my uncles married a woman who converted Conservative and she sad she had to go for a few years to study Judaism and had to have Mikvah something and the beth din, very similar to orthodox, so I figured at time time it must have been a bit more serious, think that was in the 70's.

From what I know they continually drift towards the Reformity. I think they don't unanimously accept the two Torahs as the immutable word of God, and moreover they allow their rabbis to rule 'Chidushim' to make novel halachic rules which according to the orthodox are not possible since the days of the Tanaim.
So, according  the conservatives everything is open to revision and interpretation.

[q_q_]

Reform and Conservative and Reconstructionist and whatever

THey move left religiously all the time.


so one time they start off against gay marriage, then they support it

The bottom line is that these movements do not believe that the Torah is from Sinai.

Many of their ministers"Rabbis" do not believe in G-d at all. And those that do think of him as just a force like in star wars. Not a G-d that took us out of egypt or helped us fight the arabs in 1967.

None of them believe the Torah is from sinai. THey believe it is just human wisdom  Or contains human wisdom.

And so they make up their positions according to the values of the culture that they live in.

In ascending order of religious liberalism, it probably goes  Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist. Meaning


All of them are fictional, their rituals have 0 validity.

An RRC(reform/reconstr/conservative) marriage  has no legal bearing in jewish law. It is like nothing happened.

They make up their own things, they ignore the requirements of jewish law.  Not suprising at all, since they don't even believe it comes from G-d.

Arguing about differences between these heterodox movements is irrelevant.

Their whole existance is to break jewish law, they just differ on how blatantly to do it.  So reform go off the deep end. And Conservative put on a facade of being a bit more religious by pretending to be abiding by halacha.