Poll

Can I start dating Jewish man during my conversion?

Yes.
9 (50%)
No.
9 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Dating While Converting  (Read 7118 times)

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Offline Engel

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Dating While Converting
« on: June 26, 2008, 06:24:09 PM »
I have been converting already 3 years and I hope finish it soon.  I am not anymore 20- I am 30. I had Catholic fiance before but after I started to convert we couldn't marry anymore. So I am in bad situation, I cant marry Christian man anymore and Jewish also not yet. Can I at least start dating?
PS. I am coming from Estonia where converting is very hard as we have only one synagogue (Chabad) and they can only teach me and not convert. Right now I am living and working temporally in Iceland where I don't get any teaching at all.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 07:36:20 PM by Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim »

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 06:34:03 PM »
I voted yes for in your particular case you seem to be committed to Judaism and close to complete the conversion so there is no sense to date non-Jews in this situation.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 12:55:33 AM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Katie

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 02:43:50 AM »
sure why not.. i mean as long as you don't have sex
"Over the last 15 months, we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in 57 states? I think one left to go." - Barack Obama

haha




Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 08:41:33 AM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 08:47:16 AM »
Isn't Engel German for Angel?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2008, 09:22:50 AM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.

I don't think it's right.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 09:43:12 AM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.

I don't think it's right.

Nevertheless, the fact is that orthodox rabbi do allow such conversions to take place. And if conversion takes 3 years is it right to forbid dating at all the whole period ?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2008, 01:04:20 PM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.

I don't think it's right.

Nevertheless, the fact is that orthodox rabbi do allow such conversions to take place. And if conversion takes 3 years is it right to forbid dating at all the whole period ?

Don't know. Ask Tzvi or qq or Chaim...

I just would personally feel that not until a girl or guy are fully converted, she/he should not date a Jew.  maybe I'm wrong and the best person to ask is a rabbi or one of the three I mentioned above..it is a good question.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 02:03:14 PM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.

I don't think it's right.

Nevertheless, the fact is that orthodox rabbi do allow such conversions to take place. And if conversion takes 3 years is it right to forbid dating at all the whole period ?

Don't know. Ask Tzvi or qq or Chaim...

I just would personally feel that not until a girl or guy are fully converted, she/he should not date a Jew.  maybe I'm wrong and the best person to ask is a rabbi or one of the three I mentioned above..it is a good question.
I wouldn't ask Tzvi nor Chaim, I would find a less strict orthodox rabbis. I am sure not every rabbi would approve such dating.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 02:04:34 PM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.


Converting for marriage is not a valid reason to convert.
I suppose not all agree on that. As you must know in Israel most conversions are due to such cases.   

Offline nikmatdam

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 03:45:49 PM »
as if i had any credibility anymore on this topic... but the answer is as follows if you already have met someone you don't have to stop seeing him/her while you are in the conversion process... however if you are single you should wait until you are fully a jew since you might want to back off or bow out at a later date and thus should not be involved with a jewish prospective husband/wife when that occurs because that's just begging to lead to an intermarriage...

while we are on this topic... i wish to clarify something along the lines of this issue...

when ezra and nechemiah discovered that alot of the returning jewish men had been intermarried in bavel and had goyish children in tow... they pronounced a fast and instituted a religious ban called a cherem on anyone not willing to immediately divorce his non-jewish wife and send them and their non-jewish children back to their country of origin... and if they did not by a specific date they would all be rounded up and thrown out of eretz yisroel... and so as a result most jews thusly intermarried divorced their wives... and sent them all packing i'm sure with provisions and money for the journey and a life without their husbands and fathers back in bavel...

but all of this begs the question over there in the second temple era... why didn't they encourage proper conversion... for both the wives and the children...? why wasn't this even offered as an option...? the answer is as follows...

we only allow conversion for truth... love and belief in Hashem and His torah... or perhaps for love of and for the jewish people as a whole... but not for the love of a single jewish man or woman...

but if that's the case... why nowadays do we allow these kinds of conversions to begin from the point of the love for a jewish man or woman first and proceed to the rest of the things necessary for a sincere conversion later...?

the answer is because we are dealing with non-religious jews who may be influenced to become religious when their wife or husband-to-be is sincerely learning for conversion... to mekarev the jew(ess) in the equation we allow the process to begin and wait to see if both of them take to the torah-lifestyle which will be insisted upon for the eventual and prospective conversion to be considered and deemed halachically valid and legitimate... for this special consideration we make the concession and dispensation ezra and nechemiah were not allowed to make... since besides a little idolatry still in the mix among some of the returning jews... which led to intermarriage in many of their cases... they still were fully observant in other areas of torah law...

idolatry wasn't and either/or situation back in biblical days... it was rather more of a this and also that proposition for those who were fooled by the allures of paganism... they wanted the benefit of "living in both worlds"... like eliyahu hanavi had said earlier on in jewish history during the first temple times... "when will you cease to sit on both sides of the fence (to straddle the fence)...? if G-d be the true G-d worship Him... and if ba'al be G-d worship him..." (1kings:18:21)... "and eliyahu came unto all the people and said...'how long will you halt between two opinions...? if the L-rd be G-d, follow Him... but if ba'al, then follow him...' and the people answered him not a word..."

now since this was not the case by me... and i am like those of the second temple period... for  i have been an observant jew for over 30 years already... a case like kelly's would not apply... however if she had wanted to convert on her own for her own reasons... it would have been ok in the end for me to go out with her...but not beforehand... so i screwed up here bigtime and i am sincerely repentant for my grave error... G-d forgive me... i'm just sick and tired of being alone and unfortunately i have no prospects of this ending anytime soon on the immediate horizon... anyway... "yeshuat Hashem keheref ayin..." ("the salvation of the L-rd can come at the blink of an eye...") and this is what i'm holding out for here...

anyway this is the halacha as best as i understand it and can explain it... nik. out...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 03:49:46 PM by nikmatdam »
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 12:07:50 PM »
sorry..you have to be fully converted.

Many converts are already dating and engaged to be married when they start converting.

I don't think it's right.

Nevertheless, the fact is that orthodox rabbi do allow such conversions to take place. And if conversion takes 3 years is it right to forbid dating at all the whole period ?

Don't know. Ask Tzvi or qq or Chaim...

I just would personally feel that not until a girl or guy are fully converted, she/he should not date a Jew.  maybe I'm wrong and the best person to ask is a rabbi or one of the three I mentioned above..it is a good question.
I wouldn't ask Tzvi nor Chaim, I would find a less strict orthodox rabbis. I am sure not every rabbi would approve such dating.

The best rabbi to ask usually is the one that is part of your daily community if you have one...Shopping around too much for a rabbi that goes according to your views isn't the proper thing to do...but it's only natural to do a little bit of research on various opinions and decide what works best.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 12:12:42 PM »
as if i had any credibility anymore on this topic... but the answer is as follows if you already have met someone you don't have to stop seeing him/her while you are in the conversion process... however if you are single you should wait until you are fully a jew since you might want to back off or bow out at a later date and thus should not be involved with a jewish prospective husband/wife when that occurs because that's just begging to lead to an intermarriage...

while we are on this topic... i wish to clarify something along the lines of this issue...

when ezra and nechemiah discovered that alot of the returning jewish men had been intermarried in bavel and had goyish children in tow... they pronounced a fast and instituted a religious ban called a cherem on anyone not willing to immediately divorce his non-jewish wife and send them and their non-jewish children back to their country of origin... and if they did not by a specific date they would all be rounded up and thrown out of eretz yisroel... and so as a result most jews thusly intermarried divorced their wives... and sent them all packing i'm sure with provisions and money for the journey and a life without their husbands and fathers back in bavel...

but all of this begs the question over there in the second temple era... why didn't they encourage proper conversion... for both the wives and the children...? why wasn't this even offered as an option...? the answer is as follows...

we only allow conversion for truth... love and belief in Hashem and His torah... or perhaps for love of and for the jewish people as a whole... but not for the love of a single jewish man or woman...

but if that's the case... why nowadays do we allow these kinds of conversions to begin from the point of the love for a jewish man or woman first and proceed to the rest of the things necessary for a sincere conversion later...?

the answer is because we are dealing with non-religious jews who may be influenced to become religious when their wife or husband-to-be is sincerely learning for conversion... to mekarev the jew(ess) in the equation we allow the process to begin and wait to see if both of them take to the torah-lifestyle which will be insisted upon for the eventual and prospective conversion to be considered and deemed halachically valid and legitimate... for this special consideration we make the concession and dispensation ezra and nechemiah were not allowed to make... since besides a little idolatry still in the mix among some of the returning jews... which led to intermarriage in many of their cases... they still were fully observant in other areas of torah law...

idolatry wasn't and either/or situation back in biblical days... it was rather more of a this and also that proposition for those who were fooled by the allures of paganism... they wanted the benefit of "living in both worlds"... like eliyahu hanavi had said earlier on in jewish history during the first temple times... "when will you cease to sit on both sides of the fence (to straddle the fence)...? if G-d be the true G-d worship Him... and if ba'al be G-d worship him..." (1kings:18:21)... "and eliyahu came unto all the people and said...'how long will you halt between two opinions...? if the L-rd be G-d, follow Him... but if ba'al, then follow him...' and the people answered him not a word..."

now since this was not the case by me... and i am like those of the second temple period... for  i have been an observant jew for over 30 years already... a case like kelly's would not apply... however if she had wanted to convert on her own for her own reasons... it would have been ok in the end for me to go out with her...but not beforehand... so i screwed up here bigtime and i am sincerely repentant for my grave error... G-d forgive me... i'm just sick and tired of being alone and unfortunately i have no prospects of this ending anytime soon on the immediate horizon... anyway... "yeshuat Hashem keheref ayin..." ("the salvation of the L-rd can come at the blink of an eye...") and this is what i'm holding out for here...

anyway this is the halacha as best as i understand it and can explain it... nik. out...

 :'(

i have watery eyes from this wonderful wise post from you, nik...

Gd will forgive you for you teshuva...He is merciful and He loves you.  He knows we are feeble and make mistakes knowingly and unknowingly.

And you never have to be alone. Go out to the world see the world see people socialize...there are plenty out there that will match you with many options..

and all that is needed is confidence...be yourself and modify a little if you have to...the right one is out there waiting.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline nikmatdam

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 02:50:44 PM »
thank you dr. dan... nik.
"i am nikmatdam... humble and imperfect servant of Hashem... and i yearn for redemption but i absolutely ache for Divine justice and vengeance..."

Offline cjd

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2008, 06:38:20 AM »
as if i had any credibility anymore on this topic... but the answer is as follows if you already have met someone you don't have to stop seeing him/her while you are in the conversion process... however if you are single you should wait until you are fully a jew since you might want to back off or bow out at a later date and thus should not be involved with a jewish prospective husband/wife when that occurs because that's just begging to lead to an intermarriage...

while we are on this topic... i wish to clarify something along the lines of this issue...

when ezra and nechemiah discovered that alot of the returning jewish men had been intermarried in bavel and had goyish children in tow... they pronounced a fast and instituted a religious ban called a cherem on anyone not willing to immediately divorce his non-jewish wife and send them and their non-jewish children back to their country of origin... and if they did not by a specific date they would all be rounded up and thrown out of eretz yisroel... and so as a result most jews thusly intermarried divorced their wives... and sent them all packing i'm sure with provisions and money for the journey and a life without their husbands and fathers back in bavel...

but all of this begs the question over there in the second temple era... why didn't they encourage proper conversion... for both the wives and the children...? why wasn't this even offered as an option...? the answer is as follows...

we only allow conversion for truth... love and belief in Hashem and His torah... or perhaps for love of and for the jewish people as a whole... but not for the love of a single jewish man or woman...

but if that's the case... why nowadays do we allow these kinds of conversions to begin from the point of the love for a jewish man or woman first and proceed to the rest of the things necessary for a sincere conversion later...?

the answer is because we are dealing with non-religious jews who may be influenced to become religious when their wife or husband-to-be is sincerely learning for conversion... to mekarev the jew(ess) in the equation we allow the process to begin and wait to see if both of them take to the torah-lifestyle which will be insisted upon for the eventual and prospective conversion to be considered and deemed halachically valid and legitimate... for this special consideration we make the concession and dispensation ezra and nechemiah were not allowed to make... since besides a little idolatry still in the mix among some of the returning jews... which led to intermarriage in many of their cases... they still were fully observant in other areas of torah law...

idolatry wasn't and either/or situation back in biblical days... it was rather more of a this and also that proposition for those who were fooled by the allures of paganism... they wanted the benefit of "living in both worlds"... like eliyahu hanavi had said earlier on in jewish history during the first temple times... "when will you cease to sit on both sides of the fence (to straddle the fence)...? if G-d be the true G-d worship Him... and if ba'al be G-d worship him..." (1kings:18:21)... "and eliyahu came unto all the people and said...'how long will you halt between two opinions...? if the L-rd be G-d, follow Him... but if ba'al, then follow him...' and the people answered him not a word..."

now since this was not the case by me... and i am like those of the second temple period... for  i have been an observant jew for over 30 years already... a case like kelly's would not apply... however if she had wanted to convert on her own for her own reasons... it would have been ok in the end for me to go out with her...but not beforehand... so i screwed up here bigtime and i am sincerely repentant for my grave error... G-d forgive me... i'm just sick and tired of being alone and unfortunately i have no prospects of this ending anytime soon on the immediate horizon... anyway... "yeshuat Hashem keheref ayin..." ("the salvation of the L-rd can come at the blink of an eye...") and this is what i'm holding out for here...

anyway this is the halacha as best as i understand it and can explain it... nik. out...
Nic your credibility in this department is fine even more so when you write a great post like this. This is where your needed here on JTF to bring this sort wisdom to the young people here on our forum. As for the last part of your post chalk it up to a life experience. At times in our lives we come along people and situations that may look good on the surface however as time goes on or we look closer at things we see its the wrong path or situation. It's a test of sorts. The right situation will come your way G-d willing.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline AsheDina

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Re: Dating While Converting
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2008, 02:20:11 PM »
dating others? NO. Dating WITH others there WITH YOU? Yes. There is STRENGTH in #'s.
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