how an old earth does not contradict the torah, and even has some support

[q_q_]

you haven't quoted me once. But let this thread be your evidence.

Whatever, all I know is that I have defended Lubavitch all along so I have a clear conscious. You are the one that needs to worry about judgment day.

Good, so if you really believe that, then shut up then.

[DownwithIslam]

you haven't quoted me once. But let this thread be your evidence.

Whatever, all I know is that I have defended Lubavitch all along so I have a clear conscious. You are the one that needs to worry about judgment day.

Good, so if you really believe that, then shut up then.

I will shut up when the attacks on Lubavitch stop.
Your posts seem to be inline with what they have over at the hamas forums. Have you considered joining the Al-Kassam forum?

[q_q_]

So then be serious..

QUOTE me, if you're serious

Start up a new thread, and document the anti lubavitch senitements that you think I have.

[DownwithIslam]

So then be serious..

QUOTE me, if you're serious

Start up a new thread, and document the anti lubavitch senitements that you think I have.

But when I quoted you, you were unhappy about that as well. You are a waste of time and need to be ignored. I just hope you dont bash Lubavitch so I will be able to comfortably ignore you.

[q_q_]

QUOTE ME

you haven't done it once.

[Mifletzet]

the decrease in the speed of light

Please explain.

http://ldolphin.org/constc.shtml

[q_q_]

The old earth people mention a large number of totally different measurements from different disciplines, that give us an old earth, and thus they rubbish claims of a young earth.  [1 - natan aviezer FnF]

Yet you claim to do the same for the young earth.  i.e.  Providing different measurements from different disciplines to defend a young earth.
You said
Page3 of this thread (note- between that and this post, this wasn't discussed, so nobody missed anything)
"There is a solid body of scientific evidence for a young universe eg the rate of decrease of the earth and sun's magnetic fields, the rate of decrease in the size of the solar disc, the high residual warmth of the moon and mere half-inch of dust on its surface,the decrease in the speed of light, the paucity of helium and micro-meteoric dust in the atmosphere, the rate of mineral deposition into the oceans, the fallacious premises of radiometric dating, the still "unwrapped" state of the arms of the great spiral galaxies, the thickness of Saturn's rings, the continued existence of short-term comets, human population statistics, the dearth of human records and artifacts older than a few thousand years, polystrate fossils, the non-organic theory for the origin of oil, dendochronolgy, pleochroic haloes etc etc "


Perhaps you could create a young earth thread, describing the source for this.. Is it many many complex sources? do you have a really strong background in physics?
Or is your understanding from "popular books"(rather than scientific journals). Popular books are fine, and in that instance, it means that we could all study the sources.

I must point out though, my scientist friend has always said, that he isn't interested in any research unless it has passed the peer review process in a -good- scientific journal. He actually refuses to read "popular books" !  So that would probably be a big difference between the old earth research and the young earth research.

[1]
(I read this is natan aveizer's "Fossils and faith" - he accepts old earth and evolution and rejects the physics aspect of gerald shroeder's "Genesis and the big bang")

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The basis is either mad speculation, or chabad texts. But not the RAMBAM.

They might try to show that it doesn't contradict the RAMBAM..  Which is still ludricrous. But logically, this is no basis for them proving anything from the RAMBAM.  So  even if they could show, without being ludricous, that it didn't contradict the RAMBAM, then it's still really not irrelevant.

I see what you're saying.

[Lubab]

Really?   So where's the beis hamikdash?

There's two stages in the revelation of Moshiach according to the Rambam's Mishne Torah: Chezkat Moshiach (presumed messiah) and Vadai Moshiach (definite Messiah). Most lubavitchers maintain that the Rebbe fulfilled the criteria for Chezkas Moshiach which does not demand the building of of the Beis Hamikdosh but still does give the Messianic candidate a legal presumption that he's Moshiach, nonetheless.

I don't have a hilchot melachim near me right now.. I recall many conditions before presuming somebody is the messiah, one of which is fighting the wars of G-d. So you read in "spiritual wars" I suppose.

In which case, there a thousands of other rabbis that we can presume are the moshiach.
And by your definition, since they die naturally (or appear to), and are not killed, that doesn't disqualify them.

So you can have thousands of candidates.

The reality is, that the RAMBAM is not the basis for you saying he is the messiah.  It is (fringe perhaps) chabad literature/theology, that is your basis.

No, their are not thousands of candidates. Only the Lubavitcher rebbe fulfilled them all such as bringing jews closer to judaism. While other rabbeim fulfilled some of the req, none fulfilled as many as the lubavitcher rebbe.

The RAMBAM himself brought many jews back to judaism. And he wasn't killed. So you can presume he the messiah too.

Moshe Rabbeinu too.

We have alot of candidates here.

They've been dead way too long to still be candidates. The Rebbe's work is still very felt and active in this generation and that's why his cadidacy remains valid. The Rebbe explained this in regards to why David hamelech lost his candidacy in a sicha. The efforts they started must continue.

We also have a medresh which tells us that in each generation there is someone who is ready to be Moshiach and if that generation merits he'll be revealed as such. It's pretty clear that the messianic candidate must be someone who lived in that generation.

[Lubab]

well maybe somebody can type out the beginning of the relevant chapter from hilchot melachim for you.
or you can accept that it says about presuming, and knowing for sure.

Lulab gave a source - hilchot melachim.  It's not a big book. I would say , probably chapter 10 is where it is.

But to back up what he said any more than a book name, he'd have to quote a whole chapter. And it's not reasonable for you to just expect somebody to type out a whole chapter.

But since rabbi kahane referred to it a few times, it's worth buying. I have one published by moznaim, but for some reason I can't find it.. I looked earlier.

Anyhow, the fact about presuming and knowing for sure, do not change the demonstrated ridiculousness of this interpretation .  which is just wrong on so many levels. Firstly, that it's not even the basis of them saying the L rebbe is the messiah anyway. The basis is either mad speculation, or chabad texts. But not the RAMBAM.

They might try to show that it doesn't contradict the RAMBAM..  Which is still ludricrous. But logically, this is no basis for them proving anything from the RAMBAM.  So  even if they could show, without being ludricous, that it didn't contradict the RAMBAM, then it's still really not irrelevant.

I can wear underpants on my head, that doesn't contradict the RAMBAM. And it doesn't make a nonsense out of the RAMBAM either! Or make any ludricous interpretation. It just doesn't contradict him. So just having something that doesn't contradict, is not relevant.

There were over 100 Paskning Rabbonim (both chabad and non-chabad) who signed on to a docment which stated that the Rebbe actually did fulfill all the criteria for a presumed Moshiach. Those Rabbis know that Rambam a lot better than you do.

You can find this document online: http://www.psakdin.net/en/

This was classified as a Psak Din. A legal ruling. It cannot be overridden by q_q no matter how much he may disagree with it.

And DWI you should quote how q_q just called the teachings of the Rebbe (a gaon olam by all accounts) "fringe". Very disrespectful to a great talmid chacham 

[q_q_]

I am willing to say that

Lubavitchers that believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the messiah, are NOT a fringe group

That They are mainstream.

Of course, in the minds of most people, that would make me a -real- enemy of lubavitch.

The non moshichist lubavitchers are trying very hard to say that the moshichists are just a fringe group.

Fact is, since I am not in lubavitch, I cannot say whether the Moshichists are frindge. Or the Anti Moshichists are frindge.

I do know some VERY VERY ANTI chabad people, who say - as you do - that moshichists are mainstream.

Typically it's friends of lubavitch who play down the moshichist issue, and say it is a minority.

[q_q_]

Now, regarding the statement you linked to, I am glad it is in English


Although I do not have hilchot melachim in front of me.
I am fairly sure that nowhere did it say that moshiach should be a prophet.

Secondly.  If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had ruach hakodesh, as you say. Then that does not make him a prophet.
The RAMBAM himself, in "The Guide" puts Prophecy - a Navi - at Level 3.
It occurs in Visions and dreams.

Ruach HaKodesh is still available.  And many rabbis are said to have had it. That does not make the said rabbi a Navi.

Even King Solomon was not a Navi , though he wrote with Ruach HaKodesh.

The RAMBAM, in "The Guide" says that Shir HaShirim(Song of Songs by King Solomon) is in Writings and not Prophets, because it was written with ruach hakodesh, not prophecy.

Ruach HaKodesh, and  Navi level prophecy, are very different things.

A person with ruach hakodesh, is not a prophet.

So even he had it he is not a prophet.

And being a Prophet, to my recollection, is not a condition of the Presumed Messiah, or the actual messiah.

And if you want to talk about people that "know the RAMBAM better than me", then I can humbly add a thousand rabbis for every one you mention, and each of the thousand believes that the L Rebbe is not moshiach.  So this intellectually stifling, anti intellectual argument of yours doesn't work anyway.

And you have to think for yourself and not say "oh, he knows better than me and he says it is this way, so it must be".  Because as shown, it doesn't work.

Furthermore, people with good knowledge can be very illogical.. 
As an example. I heard that the Steipler Gaon said of ovadia yosef, that his sources , his breadth of knowledge, is fantastic, his responsa are interesting for his sources, but his conclusions are totally wrong.
 

[Lubab]

Now, regarding the statement you linked to, I am glad it is in English


Although I do not have hilchot melachim in front of me.
I am fairly sure that nowhere did it say that moshiach should be a prophet.

Secondly.  If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had ruach hakodesh, as you say. Then that does not make him a prophet.
The RAMBAM himself, in "The Guide" puts Prophecy - a Navi - at Level 3.
It occurs in Visions and dreams.

Ruach HaKodesh is still available.  And many rabbis are said to have had it. That does not make the said rabbi a Navi.

Even King Solomon was not a Navi , though he wrote with Ruach HaKodesh.

The RAMBAM, in "The Guide" says that Shir HaShirim(Song of Songs by King Solomon) is in Writings and not Prophets, because it was written with ruach hakodesh, not prophecy.

Ruach HaKodesh, and  Navi level prophecy, are very different things.

A person with ruach hakodesh, is not a prophet.

So even he had it he is not a prophet.

And being a Prophet, to my recollection, is not a condition of the Presumed Messiah, or the actual messiah.

And if you want to talk about people that "know the RAMBAM better than me", then I can humbly add a thousand rabbis for every one you mention, and each of the thousand believes that the L Rebbe is not moshiach.  So this intellectually stifling, anti intellectual argument of yours doesn't work anyway.

And you have to think for yourself and not say "oh, he knows better than me and he says it is this way, so it must be".  Because as shown, it doesn't work.

Furthermore, people with good knowledge can be very illogical.. 
As an example. I heard that the Steipler Gaon said of ovadia yosef, that his sources , his breadth of knowledge, is fantastic, his responsa are interesting for his sources, but his conclusions are totally wrong.
 

575

You need to learn the sicha from Parshas Shoftim 5751 where the Rebbe addresses the prophesy issue at length. I am certain you can find it at sichosinenglish.com

You also need to read the ruling of the psak din more carefully. They are not saying it's a precondition to Messianiship. It is clearly not.
They are using that to establish that his words must be heeded and thefore...just read it again and you'll see.

[q_q_]

It says
"in light of the Rebbe's encouragement of the proclamation "Yechi Adoneinu", it is incumbent on every single Jew to heed the Rebbe's words and believe that he is indeed King Moshiach, "

Now. Suppose they are right , and the Lubavitcher Rebbe believed himself to be moshiach
(I have heard that he encouraged people when they called him moshiach).


I am not really arguing that here.

My point is. That as that thing says. Their argument is not that from the RAMBAM it is clear thet the Lubavitcher Rebbe is moshiach.

They are saying - In light of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's words/teachings, it is clear that he is moshiach. Or the presumed moshiach.

Say that if you want..
I haven't studied both sides enough to say either way. On whether the lubavitcher rebbe believed he was the messiah or not.

But that was never what the discussion was about.  You brought up the RAMBAM. And it was purely on that. Whether from the RAMBAM, we can conclude that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the presumed moshiach, or moshiach.

I know you have a theological belief from shulchan aruch haRav, that every rabbi's statements are one, and do not disagree. But that is your belief, or a chabad specific belief.  And to an extent, the belief of some non chabad people too, but most jews believe that rabbis disagreed sometimes.

[q_q_]

this is really what I said originally, and maintained. Which is that the source of your belief in the L Rebbe's status, is derived from the chabad teaching. And not just from looking at the RAMBAM.

[Lubab]

Our belief IS based on the Rebbe's teachings, but anyone who knows the Rambam well would come to that conclusion without those teachings.

This psak din is just the tip of the iceburg. The books by Rabbi Shalom Ber Walpo is where you need to go for a line by line breakdown of how the Rebbe meets the Rambam's critera.

That psak din says according to the Rambam's criteria he's met the qualifications for a Navi, which means his words must be listened to.

So it's the Rebbe's words but it's completely within the framework of the Rambam.

The Rambam isn't here today to apply what he said to this situation, that's what the Rabbis are for.

So you can say it's based on the Rebbe's words and that's true, but they wouldn't have such authority if those words didn't carry with them to power of having being said by a prophet.

[q_q_]

even if he did predict the future with ruach hakodesh, that does not make him a prophet.

As the RAMBAM said. Prophecy is in visions and dreams.

I did read something , probably the sichos that you  refer to, where the L Rebbe said something along the lines of, previous generations being a taste of the judges, and his or his father's being a taste of the prophets.  (and looking at early chassidic stories e.g. "not just stories" by rabbi Avraham J twersky, the early chassidim did seem judge like).

But the only reason one might think he is a prophet, is because he says so. That is not how one ascertains that one is a prophet.  And a Navi-prophecy, is not ruach hakodesh. those 2 things have to be distinguished too.

[Lubab]

even if he did predict the future with ruach hakodesh, that does not make him a prophet.

As the RAMBAM said. Prophecy is in visions and dreams.

I did read something , probably the sichos that you  refer to, where the L Rebbe said something along the lines of, previous generations being a taste of the judges, and his or his father's being a taste of the prophets.  (and looking at early chassidic stories e.g. "not just stories" by rabbi Avraham J twersky, the early chassidim did seem judge like).

But the only reason one might think he is a prophet, is because he says so. That is not how one ascertains that one is a prophet.  And a Navi-prophecy, is not ruach hakodesh. those 2 things have to be distinguished too.

You must learn what the Rambam says about establishing a prophet. He needs to predict accurately three major events. The Rebbe did much more than that.

Start reading: http://www.moshiach.net/blind/lwm-5763/353.htm#The%20Rebbe's%20Prophecy

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The problem that started this all is the attitude of "My Rebbe knows it all" this is an unfortunate attitude that only seperates the Jewish nation. The problem is that the people in this sect, have soo much emphasized their lives on the Rebbe and how perfect he is, how he is the "Tzaddik Yesod Olam" that they have crossed the actualy boundaries where anyone from an objective standpoint can see that this is even crossing Orthodox Judaism is becoming more and more like another world religion today.
 
 And Lubab- The signitures of the 100 Rabbis does not say much, forst of all when was this, before or after he died?  Also most if not all I would presume were his followers, and the last Lubavitch Rebbe believed in making all of his Talmidim into Rabbi's where we see many people (like yourself) with the title as Rabbi because he encouraged you to have the title, BUT one should not forget that most of the people who belive this and who probably signed were his followers to the point where whatever he said was and is like the word of G-d literally (even where some are even claiming he is G-d incarnate or whatever (G-d forbiddd).
 + If it is by quantity then I bet someone can bring more then 200 Rabbis who would say that this messianism is lunacy and is resembling another world religion that's preachig till today which also started similar to this.

 This is something from Israel613.com but makes a lot of sense.
  TO OUR GOOD FRIENDS OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH:
WHAT A GREAT WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF ALL JEWS. YOU ARE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN GREAT ACTS OF KINDNESS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE, BRINGING THEM CLOSER TO TORAH AND MITZVOT

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT DOES AS MUCH KINDNESS AS YOU DO, FOTUNATE IS YOUR LOT

NEVERTHELESS  BE WARNED ABOUT SOME TROUBLING DEVELOPMENTS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT

YOU ARE MAKING THE REBBE INTO A FALSE MESSIAH AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL THIS WILL LEAD TO?

PLEASE LEARN HOW TO LOOSE, IF THE REBBE IS JUST THE REBBE, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

LET HASHEM DECIDE WHO THE MOSHIACH IS, BE PATIENT, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS YET WHO THE MOSHIACH WILL BE

[Lubab]

He predicted with precision the end of two Arab Israeli wars and the fall of communist Russia when no one else dared say such things.

There were many more predictions but those three are the most publicized.

[Lubab]

The problem that started this all is the attitude of "My Rebbe knows it all" this is an unfortunate attitude that only seperates the Jewish nation. The problem is that the people in this sect, have soo much emphasized their lives on the Rebbe and how perfect he is, how he is the "Tzaddik Yesod Olam" that they have crossed the actualy boundaries where anyone from an objective standpoint can see that this is even crossing Orthodox Judaism is becoming more and more like another world religion today.
 
 And Lubab- The signitures of the 100 Rabbis does not say much, forst of all when was this, before or after he died?  Also most if not all I would presume were his followers, and the last Lubavitch Rebbe believed in making all of his Talmidim into Rabbi's where we see many people (like yourself) with the title as Rabbi because he encouraged you to have the title, BUT one should not forget that most of the people who belive this and who probably signed were his followers to the point where whatever he said was and is like the word of G-d literally (even where some are even claiming he is G-d incarnate or whatever (G-d forbiddd).
 + If it is by quantity then I bet someone can bring more then 200 Rabbis who would say that this messianism is lunacy and is resembling another world religion that's preachig till today which also started similar to this.

 This is something from Israel613.com but makes a lot of sense.
  TO OUR GOOD FRIENDS OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH:
WHAT A GREAT WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF ALL JEWS. YOU ARE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN GREAT ACTS OF KINDNESS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE, BRINGING THEM CLOSER TO TORAH AND MITZVOT

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT DOES AS MUCH KINDNESS AS YOU DO, FOTUNATE IS YOUR LOT

NEVERTHELESS  BE WARNED ABOUT SOME TROUBLING DEVELOPMENTS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT

YOU ARE MAKING THE REBBE INTO A FALSE MESSIAH AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL THIS WILL LEAD TO?

PLEASE LEARN HOW TO LOOSE, IF THE REBBE IS JUST THE REBBE, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

LET HASHEM DECIDE WHO THE MOSHIACH IS, BE PATIENT, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS YET WHO THE MOSHIACH WILL BE

1. Tzaddik Yesod Olam comes from Tanach, Judaism, not any other religion.

2. Let Hashem decide is not an accurate statement. The Rabmam gives us criteria for pointing out who is Moshiach so WE can decide.

3. The 100 Rabbanim were NOT all lubavitchers as I stated previously. But we're always in a catch 22. Whenever someone supports this idea they will automatically be branded a Lubavitcher and therefore all their credibility is somehow lost in these people's eyes.

Lubavitchers views on this should be taken very seriously though as they are the group of Jews who study the laws of Moshiach more than any other group. It is a focul point of the yeshiva curriculum which is not so in any other yeshiva.

4.You can bring your 200 Rabbis and I welcome you to, but they must bring proof from Torah sources which most critics of Lubavitch rarely do. Even if  you did, we go by the yeshiva which has expertise in the topic as I said above.

5. That psak din was before the Rebbe passed away but that is irrelevant because the issue under discussion is whether he met the criteria for a presumed Moshiach. Whether he still maintains the position today is another matter that I'm happy to discuss.

[q_q_]

He predicted with precision the end of two Arab Israeli wars and the fall of communist Russia when no one else dared say such things.

There were many more predictions but those three are the most publicized.

Suppose that he had ruach hakodesh.. You said so yourself.

So he could have predicting things with divine help.

That does not make somebody a Navi.

And by the way.
The idea that a rabbi with ruach hakodesh saying that he is moshiach, makes it so.
That is not in the RAMBAM.

The RAMBAM lists requirements, that's it.

[Lubab]

He predicted with precision the end of two Arab Israeli wars and the fall of communist Russia when no one else dared say such things.

There were many more predictions but those three are the most publicized.

Suppose that he had ruach hakodesh.. You said so yourself.

So he could have predicting things with divine help.

That does not make somebody a Navi.

And by the way.
The idea that a rabbi with ruach hakodesh saying that he is moshiach, makes it so.
That is not in the RAMBAM.

The RAMBAM lists requirements, that's it.

FOR THE TENTH TIME. READ WHAT THE RAMBAM SAYS SOMEONE MUST DO TO BECOME A NAVI. THEN COME BACK TO ME AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT THE REBBE DID AND COMPARE. WE DON'T JUST MAKE THIS STUFF UP OURSELVES. YOU NEED TO LOOK IN THE BOOKS.

[q_q_]

And as mentioned.

I don't think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe faught the wars of G-d.
The RAMBAM didn't either, he met the requirements as much as the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

And I don't think anybody would be crazy enough to claim that the RAMBAM believed people should presume that he (The RAMBAM) is/was moshiach, along with a hundred other rabbis and Moses-Moshe Rabbainu.

If you say they were spiritual wars. Then accept thousands of presumed moshiachs.

Predicting the future has NOTHING to do with it.

[Lubab]

even if he did predict the future with ruach hakodesh, that does not make him a prophet.

As the RAMBAM said. Prophecy is in visions and dreams.

I did read something , probably the sichos that you  refer to, where the L Rebbe said something along the lines of, previous generations being a taste of the judges, and his or his father's being a taste of the prophets.  (and looking at early chassidic stories e.g. "not just stories" by rabbi Avraham J twersky, the early chassidim did seem judge like).


But the only reason one might think he is a prophet, is because he says so. That is not how one ascertains that one is a prophet.  And a Navi-prophecy, is not ruach hakodesh. those 2 things have to be distinguished too.

You need to follow  what it says in hilchos yesodei hatorah10:5. The Rambam gives two ways you can establish if someone was a navi.

Then go back and read that link and see what the Rebbe did and if it matches up.