Author Topic: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration  (Read 46186 times)

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Offline q_q_

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2008, 03:26:19 PM »
q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference?  Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled? 

Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.

OK.. Although this is in a thread. I write this for you, or for those I have had intelligent discussions with. Ad not for those whome I know this is too deep for.

If somebody says that neturei karta want to kill jews.  Then I would defend them against that criticism.

They are very straight forward and honest, and they have explained what they do , one can listen to them in their own words on youtube or google video. And Rabbi Mayer Schiller has a good analysis of them as well.

They believe that we must not rise up against the nations -ever,  and that we should not be ruling over them, and that we are guests in whatever country we are in, and must be on our best behaviour.  (not like the american view of being a citizen and knowing your rights).

They don't believe that living as dhimmi, being treated like donkeys even, is bad. They are fine with that.  They just purely want to keep the torah. Shabbat, Kashrut, as long as they can do that, they are happy. And they will honour whoever is ruling over them. As they pray for moshiach to come.

I aspoke to a neturei karta guy, and in a very honest conversation he came up with a statement that he wouldn't have said to most people, because he they wouldn't get it. But he could see that I got it.  And I understood.   When he was telling me how great things were living under the arabs, he said "We were their donkeys, they needed us, they would not have hurt us".

It is incredible how it is the inverse of kahanism.. Rabbi Kahane taught based on Ezekiel chapter 36, that jewish strength is a kiddush hashem, and jewish weakness is a chillul hashem.  

Rabbi Kahane did criticise neturei kartar for standing with the enemy. But that is something else.

Lisa, are you jewish?  It is relevant because jews should not teach torah to non-jews.

There is a torah shiur Rav Kahane gave at YU. Where he said. Take a torah position,  And if you say we cannot rise up against the nations. Then say so, But that means we can -never- rise up against them.   And don't play games, he said.  Neturei Karta, and probably satmar too, do take this torah position , infact neturei karta have an article on their site praising a rabbi for telling jews not to rfight a regime, and to die in honour of G-d's name.  They believed they were, since they believe they are forbidden to fight back.

Sure, some aspects of neturei karta as very bad. But don't misundestand them. They go to people that they think might have animousity towards jews, and they are good to them and honour them and they actually help the jews living in those countries, they check up on their welfare.  They submit to bullies or anybody, asking only that they be allowed to keep the torah, that's all they care about, to keep the torah is their dignity, not civil rights.

Of course this is misunderstood. This concept is totally alien to people.  They have an ideology, and most people don't have the capacity to understand it anymore than the left can understand muslims. It's totally alien to them, they cannot relate to it. And they see them standing with enemies and assume that it is just like joe westerner standing with them.  They live in a different world.

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2008, 03:27:38 PM »
DownwithIslam, listen to what I said earlier. We do not need to say another word to him. Indeed, we shouldn't. We need to let his own words stand out loud and clear.

I understand what you are saying Chaimfan but I need to make sure people see whats going on. I don't want anymore generalized statement like "Both CF and QQ should calm down" when their is only one perpetrator and Neturei Kart UK supporter on this forum.
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2008, 03:29:58 PM »
q_q, what is there to defend when a group of so-called Jews places flowers on Arafat's grave, or when they go to Iran for Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial conference?  Or how about when they say that Israel should be dismantled? 

Also, although you and DownwithIslam don't see eye to eye, he is no lemming whatsoever.

OK.. Although this is in a thread. I write this for you, or for those I have had intelligent discussions with. Ad not for those whome I know this is too deep for.

If somebody says that neturei karta want to kill jews.  Then I would defend them against that criticism.

They are very straight forward and honest, and they have explained what they do , one can listen to them in their own words on youtube or google video. And Rabbi Mayer Schiller has a good analysis of them as well.

They believe that we must not rise up against the nations -ever,  and that we should not be ruling over them, and that we are guests in whatever country we are in, and must be on our best behaviour.  (not like the american view of being a citizen and knowing your rights).

They don't believe that living as dhimmi, being treated like donkeys even, is bad. They are fine with that.  They just purely want to keep the torah. Shabbat, Kashrut, as long as they can do that, they are happy. And they will honour whoever is ruling over them. As they pray for moshiach to come.

I aspoke to a neturei karta guy, and in a very honest conversation he came up with a statement that he wouldn't have said to most people, because he they wouldn't get it. But he could see that I got it.  And I understood.   When he was telling me how great things were living under the arabs, he said "We were their donkeys, they needed us, they would not have hurt us".

It is incredible how it is the inverse of kahanism.. Rabbi Kahane taught based on Ezekiel chapter 36, that jewish strength is a kiddush hashem, and jewish weakness is a chillul hashem.  

Rabbi Kahane did criticise neturei kartar for standing with the enemy. But that is something else.

Lisa, are you jewish?  It is relevant because jews should not teach torah to non-jews.

There is a torah shiur Rav Kahane gave at YU. Where he said. Take a torah position,  And if you say we cannot rise up against the nations. Then say so, But that means we can -never- rise up against them.   And don't play games, he said.  Neturei Karta, and probably satmar too, do take this torah position , infact neturei karta have an article on their site praising a rabbi for telling jews not to rfight a regime, and to die in honour of G-d's name.  They believed they were, since they believe they are forbidden to fight back.

Sure, some aspects of neturei karta as very bad. But don't misundestand them. They go to people that they think might have animousity towards jews, and they are good to them and honour them and they actually help the jews living in those countries, they check up on their welfare.  They submit to bullies or anybody, asking only that they be allowed to keep the torah, that's all they care about, to keep the torah is their dignity, not civil rights.

Of course this is misunderstood. This concept is totally alien to people.  They have an ideology, and most people don't have the capacity to understand it anymore than the left can understand muslims. It's totally alien to them, they cannot relate to it. And they see them standing with enemies and assume that it is just like joe westerner standing with them.  They live in a different world.



let me get this correct: NK are pacifists on one extreme and Kahanists are the opposite sort of on the opposite extreme...  Just to simplify what you wrote...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2008, 03:31:23 PM »
Ok, all I can say is that if he is allowed to continue to post, I won't be able to  tell the difference between this forum and the penguins forum. We literally have an in house sheik here.
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Offline Ulli

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2008, 03:35:06 PM »
at least neturei karta are honest.

And they don't want to kill jews. 

If you had any real criticism for them, then fine. I do too. But all I see is you taking the piss.
Or as we also say in britain , "taking the mickey". I see you have neither of these expressions in america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss





This Neturei Karta group makes promotion in German language on German forums and on their own homepage. They work together with real Nazis and with Achmadinedschad and Prof. Dr. Rahmin.

This is dangerous and gives this beasts moral legitimation.

If they would speak to Jews only I would agree with you. But this allie-policy of them is too much for me. :(
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline q_q_

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2008, 03:35:14 PM »
<snip>
let me get this correct: NK are pacifists on one extreme and Kahanists are the opposite sort of on the opposite extreme...  Just to simplify what you wrote...

No. There is good violence and bad violence, and kahanism uses good violence.

Rabbi Kahane said that about good violence and bad violence over and over again, and I agree 100% with almost everything he ever said.  The bits that I don't agree 100%, I wish he was here to discuss.

NK are pacifists while living in exile, and we are in exile - no temple(rabbi kahane himself said we are in exile).  And I don't agree with their pacifism, but  it is a torah position just like satmar is, neturei karta are not out to kill jews.

So please, don't simplify what I wrote, you just make a mess of it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 03:37:04 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2008, 03:40:55 PM »
We literally have an in house sheik here.
You are right, but people are seeing that by his own words.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2008, 03:42:10 PM »
<snip>
let me get this correct: NK are pacifists on one extreme and Kahanists are the opposite sort of on the opposite extreme...  Just to simplify what you wrote...

No. There is good violence and bad violence, and kahanism uses good violence.

Rabbi Kahane said that about good violence and bad violence over and over again, and I agree 100% with almost everything he ever said.  The bits that I don't agree 100%, I wish he was here to discuss.

NK are pacifists while living in exile, and we are in exile - no temple(rabbi kahane himself said we are in exile).  And I don't agree with their pacifism, but  it is a torah position just like satmar is, neturei karta are not out to kill jews.

So please, don't simplify what I wrote, you just make a mess of it.

just wanted clarification..but since it annoys you that i do this, I will continue to do it because you annoy me.  That last sentence was a complete unnecessary snotty put down.  You might be smart and intellectually, but you really need to work on that heart of yours.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2008, 03:43:02 PM »
NK are pacifists while living in exile, and we are in exile - no temple(rabbi kahane himself said we are in exile).  And I don't agree with their pacifism
You would prefer that they actually shoot and blow up fellow Jews?

Quote
but  it is a torah position just like satmar is, neturei karta are not out to kill jews.
It's a Torah position to march with Nazis, deny the Holocaust, and demand the destruction of Israel?

Really?

Offline q_q_

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2008, 03:59:56 PM »
It's a Torah position to march with Nazis, deny the Holocaust, and demand the destruction of Israel?

Really?

OUT OF CONTEXT

You didn't quote what I refered to by "It's"

I will not put the sentence of context in there for you. People can see what I wrote and see the surrounding sentences. Or better, read the whole thing.

Whether you did it intentionally or not I do not care. You are unsuited to any discussion.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2008, 04:05:05 PM »
Another thing you snipped. I was very particular in what I wrote, at the top of it,  I said it is not addressed to those I have said are not deep thinkers and will not grasp it.  One can debate a collection of all the people I refer to in that set, it's good if it puts off silly people from responding. But it certainly refers you(CF) and DWI, as has been clear from my recent posts, which you have read.

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2008, 05:31:09 PM »
Gat zal der helfen
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2008, 05:35:29 PM »
You are unsuited to any discussion.
If we have such little minds over here, why do you post at this idiot forum in the first place?

I'm sure that there are many NK forums around the internet that would be glad to have you.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2008, 05:44:06 PM »
Gat zal der helfen
Why do you keep going back to this? If this forum were MLB, q_q would be

Offline Lisa

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2008, 08:38:08 PM »
q_q, of course I'm Jewish.  All the JTF admins are Jewish. 

So just  to make sure I understand you, the Neturei Karta believe in extreme pacifism, extreme dhimmi status of Jews, not fighting back, and sucking up to enemies of the Jewish people in the misguided belief that it will keep Jews safe.  Frankly, it sounds to me like the direct opposite of Kahane's philosophy. 

In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament.  Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth.   Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?

Finally, I just want to share a story with everyone. 

A few years ago, I worked for a fledgling dot com.  I had several managers, who came and left.  The smartest one was also the most humble, whereas the dumbest one, would respond to questions by saying to me "If you can't understand it, it's not something I can explain to you."  Suffice it to say this manager was FIRED for incompetence. 

On the other hand the humble manager had an undergraduate and an MBA from Harvard.  Never ONCE, did he say to me "If you can't understand this, it's not something I can explain to you."  He would patiently and clearly explain whatever it was I asked him about.  One time, doing some work on a Sunday, and decided to email him with a question.  I assumed he would get back to me the next day.  But I was wrong.  He responded to my email in 20 minutes.

Make of my story whatever you will.

But getting back to the N.K. people, defending them here would be like me going to Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and posting about how badly I feel when they bash Gloria Steinem. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 08:40:57 PM by Lisa »

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2008, 08:48:39 PM »

In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament.  Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth.   Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?


I would bet $20 with you that Rambam did not say that, ever. I will give you 1 month, and if you provide the source I will give you $20, and if not then you will give me, fine?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 09:10:20 PM by Tzvi Ben Roshel »
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2008, 09:09:07 PM »
q_q, of course I'm Jewish.  All the JTF admins are Jewish. 

So just  to make sure I understand you, the Neturei Karta believe in extreme pacifism, extreme dhimmi status of Jews, not fighting back, and sucking up to enemies of the Jewish people in the misguided belief that it will keep Jews safe.  Frankly, it sounds to me like the direct opposite of Kahane's philosophy. 

In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament.  Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth.   Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?

Finally, I just want to share a story with everyone. 

A few years ago, I worked for a fledgling dot com.  I had several managers, who came and left.  The smartest one was also the most humble, whereas the dumbest one, would respond to questions by saying to me "If you can't understand it, it's not something I can explain to you."  Suffice it to say this manager was FIRED for incompetence. 

On the other hand the humble manager had an undergraduate and an MBA from Harvard.  Never ONCE, did he say to me "If you can't understand this, it's not something I can explain to you."  He would patiently and clearly explain whatever it was I asked him about.  One time, doing some work on a Sunday, and decided to email him with a question.  I assumed he would get back to me the next day.  But I was wrong.  He responded to my email in 20 minutes.

Make of my story whatever you will.

But getting back to the N.K. people, defending them here would be like me going to Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and posting about how badly I feel when they bash Gloria Steinem. 


Bravo post! O0
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2008, 09:09:46 PM »

In terms of teaching the Torah to non-Jews, I believe it was Maimonides who said that it was acceptable to teach the Torah to Christians since they view it as a sort of valid precursor to their New Testament.  Maimonidies actually opposed teaching the Torah to Muslims, since they believe the O.T. and N.T. were corrupted by Christians and Jews, and that their Koran is the uncorrupted truth.   Are you implying, q_q, that Maimonides was wrong?


 I would bet $20 with you that Rambam did not say that, ever. I will give you 1 month, and if you provide the source I will give you $20, and if not then you will give me, fine?

if you have $20 to give, donate it to a tzedaka and not make silly bets.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lisa

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2008, 09:10:50 PM »
Teshuvot ha-Rambam 1, ed. J. Blau (Jerusalem, 1960), no. 149, pp. 284f.
Quote
It is permitted (muttar) to teach the com-mandments to Christians (notsrim) and draw them to our law (datenu). But it is not permitted to teach anything from it to Muslims (yisma’elim) because it is known to you about their belief that this Torah [of ours] is not from God ... and if one can convince the Christians of the correct interpretation [of Scripture], it is possible (efshar) that they might return to what is good (she-yahzoru la-mutav).15

Offline q_q_

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2008, 09:10:57 PM »
I do recall there being something about an opinion that it's OK to teach tenach to christians. But not to muslims. Because at least they believe in the bible.

That's tenach. Not Oral Torah. Not talmud.

And that's a very lenient opinion. I don't know whether that is of  Maimonides or not (note the spelling of Maimonides)

Maimonides did refer to people of certain mindsets or opinions as fools and ignoramouses.
And further, regarding your story. It's not such a good  analogy, since I am explaining things to you.  Not refusing at all.  The problem here is not lack of explanation, believe me. I can explain anything I understand, to anybody. The problem is, as I described.

when I was talking about rabbi kahane's YU shiur, and neturei karta, it touches on talmud.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 09:12:34 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Lisa

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2008, 10:08:56 PM »
True. You did explain it to me politely enough.  But you haven't always been that way with Dr. Dan, DownwithIslam and C.F. 

Now I realize you might find DownwithIslam's language off-putting and that's your prerogative.  But none of them are stupid.  You could say, "I don't appreciate your language," and ask them to rephrase their posts.  I always tell people here to focus on facts, rather than using epithets, when discussing R.O.Y.  I guess it's obvious that no-one listens to me. 

Otherwise, you said in your earlier post that it is forbidden to teach Torah to gentiles.  You didn't specify that you meant the Oral Law. 

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2008, 10:16:17 PM »
Lisa, I did not ever diss ROY.

ALL that I said, that set q_q off, was that I had a whole lot that I could say about Shas but would not for the sake of appropriateness, in response to Mord's OP.

He kind of went crazy after that--this unfortunately not being the first time.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2008, 10:25:01 PM »
Teshuvot ha-Rambam 1, ed. J. Blau (Jerusalem, 1960), no. 149, pp. 284f.
Quote
It is permitted (muttar) to teach the com-mandments to Christians (notsrim) and draw them to our law (datenu). But it is not permitted to teach anything from it to Muslims (yisma’elim) because it is known to you about their belief that this Torah [of ours] is not from G-d ... and if one can convince the Christians of the correct interpretation [of Scripture], it is possible (efshar) that they might return to what is good (she-yahzoru la-mutav).15
Ouch. Looks like someone (or a couple somebodys in this case) got told  ;)...

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2008, 10:41:54 PM »
Lisa I was thinking of the whole Torah (which is both Oral and Written together, as our sages say that the Written Torah cant be understood and learned without the Oral Torah), but whatever, if you want the $20, I have no problem giving it. If you want come to this event http://torahanytime.com/event.php?p=1  on Monday, and I will give it to you their.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

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Re: Idiot from Shas please don't show Beirut celebration
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2008, 10:44:22 PM »
Lisa I was thinking of the whole Torah (which is both Oral and Written together, as our sages say that the Written Torah cant be understood and learned without the Oral Torah), but whatever, if you want the $20, I have no problem giving it. If you want come to this event http://torahanytime.com/event.php?p=1  on Monday, and I will give it to you their.
I don't think she is holding her breath that you will be making good on it anytime soon.