Refuting the Khazar myth

[islamophobe]

Along with holocaust denial, our enemies want to strip us of our Biblical heritage, in order to assert the claim that we have no legitimate claim over Israel. So for anyone, Jew and Gentile that casually wanders into this forum, I would like to us to compile a list of facts proving the falseness of the Khazar myth.

I'll start us off. Linguistics. The Khazars were Turko-Mongol nation. Yiddish, the day-to-day language of Ashkenazi Jews for the last millenia, is a Germanicized (Indo-European) version of Hebrew (Semitic). There is absolutely no hint of neither Turkic nor Mongol vocabulary or grammar in Yiddish. The Yiddish language reflects the culture and genetic make-up of Ashkenazi Jews. A Semitic people that since the Roman diaspora had to an extent mixed with the surrounding European population, whether through acceptance of converts in peaceful times, rapes during pogroms, and through mixed marriages.

Reply to this post with another fact.

[ape]

After a Jewish woman was raped, it must have been so difficult to raise the child knowing that the father was a rapist. Is there any way of knowing how many rapes occurred during a certain period and how many European converts to Judaism occurred?

[q_q_]

Genetic tests for Kohanim/priests

Many Jews have a record of what tribe they are from.
Specifically,
Yaakov had 12 sons. One was Levi
A descendent of Levi was Moshe and his brother aharon.   Aharon and his descendents are Kohanim.

Today, there are lots of jews who are kohanim or leviim.

Ashkenazi and Sephardi jews both have them.   A recent discovery, is that genetic testing can show those who are from the priestly tribe, kohanim. It goes down the paternal(father) line.

Also, genetics can trace ashkenazi jews back to ancient israel

Recently there was a program with a Lord Professor Winston (a not so religious, jewish scientist.  Lord is like Sir but probably far more)..

He is respected in the area of female fertility but he did a few programs on religion. At the same time as Dawkins. He was meant to be the religious version, against dawkins atheism, nevertheless he turned out to not be very religious.

But.. He got his DNA tested, and the scientist said to him  "are you jewish". He said yes  The scientist testing him, said,  His DNA shows roots from ancient israel..

He is an ashkenazi jew.


This genetic thing has really changed the minds of some anti-semites. Because they can't argue with science like that.

Another fact.
Of course, we have our oral torah tradition that has been passed down in a chain, that nationally at least, has not been broken.  It came down to us. From G-d to Moses to Joshua to Elders to Prophets to Men of the great assembly, to 5 pairs of rabbis ending in hillel and Shammai. The talmud was written based on it. And it has continuously been passed down and being taught till and including today.

[muman613]

And there was a country called Khazar which converted to Judaism in the 8th or 9th century. There is no denying this fact. But the fact that the nation of Khazar converted doesnt mean that the Ashkenazi Jews {of whom I am one} are not related to the original Israelites. As another poster here has written, genetic DNA testing proves the existence of the Kohen gene which goes back to the original Kohens of the Israelite nation.

I am reading an interesting book on the Khazars. They were a very noble people to put down their idols and follow the commandments of Hashem.

[muman613]

And there was a country called Khazar which converted to Judaism in the 8th or 9th century. There is no denying this fact. But the fact that the nation of Khazar converted doesnt mean that the Ashkenazi Jews {of whom I am one} are not related to the original Israelites. As another poster here has written, genetic DNA testing proves the existence of the Kohen gene which goes back to the original Kohens of the Israelite nation.

I am reading an interesting book on the Khazars. They were a very noble people to put down their idols and follow the commandments of Hashem.

A person born to a Jewish mother by a non-Jew has the satatus of Mamzer. A mamzer cannot marry a Jew.

muman613

PS: This information is not fully correct. A mamzer is the result of an adulterous relationship between Jews.

[islamophobe]

muman63 and qq, when I said facts, I meant solid universally accepted evidence. Jewish law that is sometimes followed, sometimes not, depending on the the individuals practicing and the community involved, do not constitute, solid and universally accepted evidence. Neither does the Oral Torah.

Here is another example of a solid fact. The studies on the Jewish Y-chromosome performed by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona. Proving that the majority of Jews, both Sephardi and Ashkenazi (excluding Ethiopians) are Semite and not Turks or East Asians. In fact the study also showed the close resemblance between Jewish and Arab DNA, confirming our Biblical origins going back to Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's 2 oldest sons.

Here is the article that discussess the study:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E0D71338F93AA35756C0A9669C8B63

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The people believing the Khazar lie are ghouls who are beyond all hope. These devils won't listen to the facts no matter how rationally you speak to them. They are a lost cause.

[muman613]

muman63 and qq, when I said facts, I meant solid universally accepted evidence. Jewish law that is sometimes followed, sometimes not, depending on the the individuals practicing and the community involved, do not constitute, solid and universally accepted evidence. Neither does the Oral Torah.

Here is another example of a solid fact. The studies on the Jewish Y-chromosome performed by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona. Proving that the majority of Jews, both Sefaradi and Ashkenazi (excluding Ethiopians) are Semite and not Turks or East Asians. In fact the study also showed the close resemblance between Jewish and Arab DNA, confirming our Biblical origins going back to Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's 2 oldest sons.

Here is the article that discussess the study:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E0D71338F93AA35756C0A9669C8B63

Yes Islamophobe, I agreed with you completely. My point was that according to our understanding and historic evidence there was a nation called Khazar. Those who use this to believe that all European Jews are Khazars are simply mistaken. There is much evidence to prove that Ashkenazi Judaism is directly related to the Israelites. We are in agreement.

muman613

PS: I am reading Rabbi Zelig Shachnowitz's book entitled "The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar" published by Feldheim Publishers.

[q_q_]

muman63 and qq, when I said facts, I meant solid universally accepted evidence. Jewish law that is sometimes followed, sometimes not, depending on the the individuals practicing and the community involved, do not constitute, solid and universally accepted evidence. Neither does the Oral Torah.

Here is another example of a solid fact. The studies on the Jewish Y-chromosome performed by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona. Proving that the majority of Jews, both Sefaradi and Ashkenazi (excluding Ethiopians) are Semite and not Turks or East Asians. In fact the study also showed the close resemblance between Jewish and Arab DNA, confirming our Biblical origins going back to Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham's 2 oldest sons.

Here is the article that discussess the study:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E0D71338F93AA35756C0A9669C8B63

I mentioned DNA and oral torah.

My point with the oral torah, is

The anti-semites don't claim that sephardim are descendents of khazars.  ashkenazim share the same oral tradition as sephardim going back taught down the generations.

It is an irrelevance though, for jews to prove to anti-semites that we are jews.

And , as i'm sure you know, jews don't need science to tell them that their ancestors going way back were jews.(it's rare for 2 converts to marry)

And jews don't have anything against khazars or whoever. If they converted to judaism , they are jews.

jewish law defines who a jew is.

do you think anti-semites are going to say "oh, we only hate jews who are descended from khazars. But we love the "real" jews?"   Anti-semites who live with european jews may say that, and maintain that those jews are khazars. But we know that they don't distinguish..

Here's another fact..
Some jewish kohanim, ashkenazim and sephardim have records of their ancesttal tribe going back generations, around 138 generations to Aharon the first kohen.

DNA is the only one anti-semites cannot put a "maybe" on.

They could claim jews manufactured this or that, that this is s forgery, and that is a forgery, just like holocaust deniers do With no evidence..  Like denying a huge event like a war, and claiming all evidence of it is forged.

If you have one proof, you don't need more. If you need more and more, then it suggests a problem with one of them.
Really the DNA proves it completely.

But it's an irrelevance, because
a)if jews need that to tell them they are jewish, then soemthing's wrong
b)jews don't need to prove to anti-semites that they are jews.

nevertheless, it's good to have an irrefutable proof to give them.  So as to know how to answer them. But what did jews do before this DNA thing? perhaps similar to what some would say now.

I think rabbi kahane was asked it once. he said
If they think we are going to argue about whether we are jews or not, they have the wrong jew.. It's debasing oneself to even have the discussion.   Sometimes they would give their argument, and rabbi kahane responded so ingeniously.   One guy on talk radio splattered out all this crazy theory, and rabbi kahane replied, "and did you know abraham was half chinese" . The guy said "no, I didn't know that, that's very interesting".  Rabbi kahane said,  "yeah, and his mother was half italian" .. The radio host said "ok, next caller"
There was another one on youtube.. Some black guy starts this long rant, and one of teh things he says was that jews are not jews, because mount sinai is in saudi arabia, and jews don't look very arabian.  The black guy went on and on, about other things too, and said "the truth hurts" . Kahane replied "Wait till you hear the answer".
He dealt with everything, and to the sinai in saudi arabia point, he replied "Actually, mount sinai is in the antarctica and jews look like penguins".  Brilliant! he also went into how a jew is a jew it doesn't matter what race he is.   I'm not suggesting rabbi kahane's answers would work for any situation, there were specific brilliant answers tailored for the particular people and format of event, and the things he was asked..  And they were the product of a very sharp mind. A man who could think on his feet like no one else.


  

[judeanoncapta]

After a Jewish woman was raped, it must have been so difficult to raise the child knowing that the father was a rapist. Is there any way of knowing how many rapes occurred during a certain period and how many European converts to Judaism occurred?

Since converts to Judaism were put to death, I doubt there were very many converts.

[Maimonides]

It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.

Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.

[islamophobe]

It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.

Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.

Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau. Present universally acceptablle evidence to refute the Khazar lie.
Another fact is that most Jew bashers, wether Christian Identity cultists, Black HeBros, or Islamofascists will cite The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. According to Koestler's own words, his motivation for writing the book was, to end the belief that Jews crucified Jesus, by rewriting the history of his own people. According to renowned Near East historian Bernard Lewis PhD, Koestler's theory is described as "supported by no evidence whatsoever".
Here is the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Tribe#cite_note-0

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Who is Arthur Koestler? 

[Maimonides]

It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.

Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.

Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau. Present universally acceptablle evidence to refute the Khazar lie.
Another fact is that most Jew bashers, wether Christian Identity cultists, Black HeBros, or Islamofascists will cite The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler. According to Koestler's own words, his motivation for writing the book was, to end the belief that Jews crucified Jesus, by rewriting the history of his own people. According to renowned Near East historian Bernard Lewis PhD, Koestler's theory is described as "supported by no evidence whatsoever".
Here is the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Tribe#cite_note-0

Another fact is that anti-semites will have endless amounts of theories and ideas to discredit Jews, and we can spend all of eternity trying to prove them wrong and for WHAT?

People who believe this obviously are not going to be convinced otherwise.

And why should we leave Jewish law out of this?

Israel is the Jewish homeland and all Jews are entitled to leave their. Why should we let anti-semites set the terms of the debate?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree, nothing will convince these zombies. They are in love with hatred.

[islamophobe]

This is not about convincing our enemies of anything. Most of them know that they are maliciously lying anyway. Do you think that any of the professional holocasut revisionists like David Duke or Ahmedinejad really believe it never happened. This is about how well do you understand your enemies' tactics. And do you know your own history well enough to present a valid defense to keep regular people from believing your enemies' propaganda. The anti-Semitic propganda machine is stronger than you think when it comes to swaying the borderline braindead MTV generation. How else do you think there are so many college kids taking up the Destroy Israel cause. International Solidarity Movement, Rachel Corrie come to mind?

Who is Arthur Koestler? 

I left a link to wikipedia about the guy. Or use a search engine... you are sitting at a computer, right? Come on people, act like you can conduct on intelligent discussion. Don't make StørmFrønt look more intelligent by comparison.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You would be wise to search the numbers of that supposed khazar tribe.  It is impossible practically speaking that ALL of the various european Jewish communities, from troyes, to worms, to mainz, etc etc descended from a single khazar tribe.  The conversion was not so huge, and it is believed that only the upper class elites actually converted.  They were the ones slaughtered when the khazars were defeated, and the commoners retained their own religions through all that.   So how did those other Jewish communities magically appear in Europe?    And if they were insincere converts or forced converts by the king, as the khazar theory often says, why would they have persisted with their beliefs and remained Jewish after the khazar kingdom was destroyed?

It is documented that there were Jews in areas of Western Europe around 5th century towards the end of the Roman empire.  Jews lived in present-day france in the 500's.   What happened to them?  Magically disappeared?  Doubtful.   The King of the Franks expelled Jews from a territory in 629.  They settled somewhere else in Europe most likely.   Charlemagne granted Jews freedoms after his conquests, so what Jews were these if there weren't any in Europe?   The whole idea is absurd.

Another angle is the following.   If there really were "real Jews" and "fake Jews," why would the supposed "real Jews "  just have summarily accepted a group of phonies?   Why wouldn't a single rabbi have written a document or letter or text warning against the fake Jews in Europe 'hijacking the faith?'  Do you notice how stringent we are today about conversions and about people posing as Jews when really believing in idiocy (example black hebrews)?   Rashi (a great rabbi of France) was universally recognized among Ashkenaz and Sephardim as an authority.   If he was a faker, this couldn't be.   There are others as well.  The Rosh if I'm not mistaken, was a halachic authority for both askenaz and sephardim.     There actually was a time of "phony Jews" in our history.  It's documented in the Talmud.  This would be the Samaritans.  They had improper conversions and were insincere, for a long time actually acting as the enemy of the Jews despite declaring themselves Jews.   They are written against strongly by 'real Jews.' in our writings.   Sephardim never took issue with Ashkenazi Jews of Europe, so you must wonder why today Muslims and Israel-haters attempt to take issue with them.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't buy the Khazar story any more than I buy the Liberty Ship hoax. The only people who ever talk about either one are Nazis. I would not be surprised if the Khazars never even existed.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't buy the Khazar story any more than I buy the Liberty Ship hoax. The only people who ever talk about either one are Nazis. I would not be surprised if the Khazars never even existed.

Well then you would be surprised by reality because they are a documented people who did exist.  It was a kingdom, and the king converted to judaism after hosting a theological debate.  He was convinced by the rabbi's arguments.   But their relevance is really what is in question.  There isn't much relevance.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Is there a source for this besides what Nazi sites say?

[muman613]

C.F.

Yes there is both physical evidence that the Kuzars existed and there is the story which was passed down through the generations. I am reading a good book on the subject called "The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar" by Rabbi Zelig Schachnowitz published by Feldheim books.

I dont think there is any dispute as to whether there was a nation of Kuzar.

According to wikipedia {and I know their reputation but I will provide further sources}

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

In the 7th century CE, the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea. Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists, many of them converted to Christianity, Islam, and other religions. During the eighth or ninth century the state religion became Judaism. At their height, the Khazar khaganate and its tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Caucasus (including Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya, and parts of Georgia), and the Crimea.

A letter in Hebrew dated AM 4746 (985–986) refers to "our lord David, the Khazar prince" who lived in Taman. The letter said that this David was visited by envoys from Kievan Rus to ask about religious matters — this could be connected to the Vladimir conversion which took place during the same time period. Taman was a principality of Kievan Rus around 988, so this successor state (if that is what it was) may have been conquered altogether. The authenticity of this letter, the Mandgelis Document, has however been questioned by such scholars as D. M. Dunlop.

Abraham ibn Daud, a twelfth-century Spanish rabbi, reported meeting Khazar rabbinical students in Toledo, and that they informed him that the "remnant of them is of the rabbinic faith." This reference indicates that some Khazars maintained ethnic, if not political, autonomy at least two centuries after the sack of Atil.

Petachiah of Ratisbon, a thirteenth-century rabbi and traveler, reported traveling through "Khazaria", though he gave few details of its inhabitants except to say that they lived amidst desolation in perpetual mourning.

CF, this would seem to confirm your belief that whites are Jews as caucasians are often thought of as being white.

Here is an honest link for Khazarian Jewish information including the ancient artifacts which prove a Jewish nation existed.

http://www.khazaria.com/

This site is a good explanation of what you are talking about, how antisemites are using the myth that all Ashkenaki Jews are descended from Khazars who are not racially connected to the Israelites. We know this is not true, as KWRBT pointed out through genetic testing and the Kohen gene. But this site definately says that the Khazars were a nation who converted to Judaism.

http://www.jewishpress.com/displayContent_new.cfm?mode=a&sectionid=61&contentid=21499&contentName=The%20Khazar%20Myth%20and%20the%20New%20Anti-Semitism

I hope that this sheds some light on the issue....

Shalom,
muman613

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Is there a source for this besides what Nazi sites say?

I wouldn't have said that if there wasn't.   I don't hold by the propaganda of nazi sites. 

This is really a sick thing to ask.   If nazi sites were the only source that khazars even existed, why would I be expressing certainty that they existed?   

[muman613]

I find the information on Wiki concerning the history of Jews in Ukraine interesting as this is my heritage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ukraine

I find the following most interesting:

The traditional measures of keeping Imperial Russia free of Jews failed when the main territory of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was annexed during the partitions of Poland. During the second (1793) and the third (1795) partitions, large populations of Jews were taken over by Russia, and Catherine II of Russia established the Pale of Settlement that included Congress Poland and Crimea.

During the 1821 anti-Jewish riots in Odessa after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople, 14 Jews were killed. Some sources claim this episode as the first pogrom, [2] while according to others (such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, 1911 ed.) say the first pogrom was the 1859 riots in Odessa. The term became common after a large-scale wave of anti-Jewish violence swept southern Imperial Russia, including Ukraine, in 1881-1884, after Jews were wrongly blamed for the assassination of Tsar Alexander II.

In May 1882, Alexander III of Russia introduced temporary regulations called May Laws that stayed in effect for more than thirty years, until 1917. Systematic policies of discrimination, strict quotas on the number of Jews allowed to obtain education and professions caused widespread poverty and mass emigration. In 1886, an Edict of Expulsion was applied to Jews of Kiev. In 1893-1894, some areas of the Crimean peninsula were cut out of the Pale.

When Alexander III died in Crimea on October 20, 1894, according to Simon Dubnow: "as the body of the deceased was carried by railway to St. Petersburg, the same rails were carrying the Jewish exiles from Yalta to the Pale. The reign of Alexander III ended symbolically. It began with pogroms and concluded with expulsions."[3]

My fathers family {Uman} moved to America in the year 1907 which seems to be years of pogroms in the Ukraine. My mothers family was from Poland, which united with Ukraine to form the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in the 10th century through the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1569, Poland was one of the most tolerant countries in Europe. It became home to one of the world's largest and most vibrant Jewish communities. The Jewish community in the territory of Ukraine during the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was one of the largest and most important ethnic groups in Ukraine.

Here is wikis page on Uman : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uman

The Massacre of Uman : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Uman

The Masscre of Uman was the 1768 massacre of the Jews and Poles at Uman, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the Ukrainian Haidamak rebel army.
.
.
.
Most historians give an estimate of number of Poles and Jews who were killed in the “massacre of Uman” as to be between 12,000 and 20,000 (it includes Polish army units and private militia). The most conservative estimate is given by Gonta during his trial (2,000) while some of the Jewish historians put the number close to 50,000. The anniversary of the commencement of the massacre, Tammuz 5, henceforth known as the “Evil Decree of Uman,” was observed as a fast and by a special prayer. Nachman of Breslov settled in Uman, and before his death there, he said, “the souls of the martyrs (slaughtered by Gonta) await me”. After his death in 1811, the Hasidim of Breslov used to come to Uman in large numbers to prostrate themselves at his grave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachman_of_Breslov

muman613

[SavetheWest]

Tell me if I'm wrong but it sounded like the Jews of that time were warning about a Cosack invasion and treachery by local leaders but there wasn't enough evidence.  The Coasacks then invaded with the help of a 5th column and started killing Poles and Jews.  Is this correct?

[islamophobe]

Muman613 and NorthwestJTF. Please stay on topic. Cossack era Poland is not what is being discussed.

I don't buy the Khazar story any more than I buy the Liberty Ship hoax. The only people who ever talk about either one are Nazis. I would not be surprised if the Khazars never even existed.

Rabbi Yehuda Halevi, who lived in Muslim occupied Spain during the 11th century wrote a work titled the Kuzari. At this time, Khazaria was seeing it's last days as a sovereign kingdom. Himself never having visited the kingdom or met any actual Khazars, hypothesized on why of all the major world religions (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc.) would a people closer to Attila the Hun than King David take upon themselves the obligations of the world's least popular religion.
His work served more as an explanation of what Judaism is and what it offers that other faiths do not, rather than a historical documentary on the Khazars.