White Nationalism and Jewish Nationalism

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Oh, and PS:

posting a link to this site on jtf forum is completely inappropriate, as the site is trashing all haredim

I don't see this site trashing Lubavitch Haredim. In fact, I almost never see cynical anti-religious Jews dissing the Chabadim.

Are you saying that all Jews other than Chabad should be condemned?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Oh, and PS:

posting a link to this site on jtf forum is completely inappropriate, as the site is trashing all haredim

I don't see this site trashing Lubavitch Haredim. In fact, I almost never see cynical anti-religious Jews dissing the Chabadim.

CF are you insane?   The site is anti-haredi.   That INCLUDES Lubavitch chassidim.   They consider themselves haredim.  Whether you can find a specific rant against Lubavitch or not.   ANd I'm not sure why you think that if you can't find anything specifically citing Lubavitch (although I'm sure he finds time in his day to rant against them too, but won't bother searching for it) why this excuses the anti ncsy anti aish and anti-all-other-orthodox propaganda on the site.   I'm not sure why you think it appropriate to link to on JTF.   Probably ignorance.

Did you listen to what Chaim told me on this week's Ask JTF?

He very clearly said that we shouldn't be looking to condemn fellow Jews who are mistaken, but should try to look for the good in them and show them the way. There is a big difference between this guy, who has very real beefs with the behavior of some who call themselves Orthodox Jews, and the Satmar, who outright declare that everybody who disagrees with their religious cult should die and go to hell. I don't see this fellow who you despise preaching the destruction of the state of Israel or defending Muslims.

I happen to think that this guy is right, in terms of the essence of what he believes and teaches, and simply hasn't had a lot of exposure to sincere, genuine Orthodox Jews. I doubt very much that he does attack Lubavitch, and I am sure that if he did meet them, he would be won over completely by their lifestyle and character witness regardless of whether he felt that the Lubavitch rebbe is the messiah. For you to just keep flaming him for no other reason than that he is critical of the hypocrisy of many Haredim is Lashon Hara. I feel bad for him and want to correct him, not condemn him.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Oh, and PS:

posting a link to this site on jtf forum is completely inappropriate, as the site is trashing all haredim

I don't see this site trashing Lubavitch Haredim. In fact, I almost never see cynical anti-religious Jews dissing the Chabadim.

CF are you insane?   The site is anti-haredi.   That INCLUDES Lubavitch chassidim.   They consider themselves haredim.  Whether you can find a specific rant against Lubavitch or not.   ANd I'm not sure why you think that if you can't find anything specifically citing Lubavitch (although I'm sure he finds time in his day to rant against them too, but won't bother searching for it) why this excuses the anti ncsy anti aish and anti-all-other-orthodox propaganda on the site.   I'm not sure why you think it appropriate to link to on JTF.   Probably ignorance.

Did you listen to what Chaim told me on this week's Ask JTF?

He very clearly said that we shouldn't be looking to condemn fellow Jews who are mistaken, but should try to look for the good in them and show them the way. There is a big difference between this guy, who has very real beefs with the behavior of some who call themselves Orthodox Jews, and the Satmar, who outright declare that everybody who disagrees with their religious cult should die and go to hell. I don't see this fellow who you despise preaching the destruction of the state of Israel or defending Muslims.

I happen to think that this guy is right, in terms of the essence of what he believes and teaches, and simply hasn't had a lot of exposure to sincere, genuine Orthodox Jews. I doubt very much that he does attack Lubavitch, and I am sure that if he did meet them, he would be won over completely by their lifestyle and character witness regardless of whether he felt that the Lubavitch rebbe is the messiah. For you to just keep flaming him for no other reason than that he is critical of the hypocrisy of many Haredim is Lashon Hara. I feel bad for him and want to correct him, not condemn him.

CF. what are you talking about?   Where do you get these ideas from?   You are shooting from the hip, it's enough already.  I'm not going to fight against speculation all day from someone (cf) who has no idea what he's talking about but has all sorts of preformed opinions on the subject.   

I doubt very much that he does attack Lubavitch, and I am sure that if he did meet them, he would be won over completely by their lifestyle and character

What are you this guy's brother?  His long-lost best friend from second grade?  Where do you get these theories from?  Why do you jump to defend this propagandist who you know nothing about, on a subject you know nothing about?    I'm sick of your slander of religious Jews . It's enough already.   You can't hide behind "But Lubavitch I don't condemn" and then use that as a cover for attacking everyone else that either isn't a secular Jew or isn't lubavitch.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I'm sick of your slander of religious Jews . It's enough already.   You can't hide behind "But Lubavitch I don't condemn" and then use that as a cover for attacking everyone else that either isn't a secular Jew or isn't lubavitch.

I am equally sick of your slander of that webmaster, who happens to be 100% right about the Satmar. You don't know any more about him than I do. What I can discern is that this guy is a Zionist and doesn't tolerate hypocrisy. I said that it is sad that he assumes that all religious Jews are like Satmar and needs to be corrected. He most certainly is never going to see the error of that with the example of condemnations such as yours.

You speak Lashon Hara of mistaken Jews, such as the above, but refuse to criticize the Satmar, who teach that you are a goy who is going to hell because you believe in the state of Israel--what is up with that?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

How many times am I going to repeat this, ncsy is not satmar.  Or sameach is not satmar.  Aish is not satmar.   And you didn't even quote the webmaster.  You quoted an anonymous commenter to his blog.

You're not going to "tolerate" my "Slander" of a guy who is an anti circumcision lobbyist?  I could give to ____'s about what you think you can tolerate or not.

You don't know any more about him than I do.

   Because you found this site tonight and you thought it was the end-all and be-all of Jewish opinion, that means I know nothing about it?   

What I can discern is that

   Anyone has an ability to discern by reading.   Why are you the monopoly on truth by what you read and discerned in the past couple of hours?   or if you frequent that site habitually, why do you have a monopoly on what can be discerned from it?  The previous sentence you said I don't know more than you do- what kind of statement is that?    Absurd.

Don't accuse me of lashon hara because you have no idea what it is.

I'm sick of you trying to hijack Judaism and spin it against other members here.  Enough with these guilt trips.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There is a tiny fringe minority of Jews, probably less then .005% (one-half of one percent), i.e. the two main splinter organizations (Voice of Judea and Revava) and some of the lunatic cults of Judaism (i.e. Satmarism) who are supremacist schmucks. They hate all Gentiles and all Jews who do not subscribe to their own elitist, exclusivist mentalities. If I am not mistaken, the Satmar and their offshoots the NK actually define all non-Satmar/NK Jews as goyim.

I even understand that a few Satmar have been known to indulge in immorality with shiksas and then justify it by claiming that since the women were goy, their indiscretions do not count since they were not actually involved with a human being.

Like all so-called "supremacists", such as the "white nationalists" who are voting for Obama in order to stick it to Jews (who, by and large, are white), these fools are complete hypocrites. They love to rattle the saber and beat their chests with idle talk of saving Israel, but they are really only out to try to destroy real Jewish nationalists they are jealous of (i.e. HaYamin HaAmiti). They hate JTF and Chaim more than they hate Arabs and Nazis, and as we all know, one of their organizations actually befriended and worked with known Nazis for a while. 

I just read the story of Gitty Grunwald  in the July 21 issue of New York Magazine who escaped from life as a Satmar wife
and lost her daughter in the process. That story horrified me as do many of the practices of Hasidic Jews. But this one
in particular made me feel ashamed to share a religion with these people.

Frankly, reading about the Satmar Jews didn't seem all that much different from the Muslim fundamentalists.

There's more to that story than meets the eye.

I also find it troubling that the knee-jerk reaction nowadays is automatically to assume the father is a criminal and the mother deserves custody any time parents split up.  T his is atrocious.

Fact:  The woman was getting high with hasidic rebels in the woods.  (and I won't suggest about her other behaviors.  But the getting stoned part was documented fact, in the article, And in the drug test!!!).    How can you possibly think the woman deserves custody?   SHe is not fit to be a mother if she is running off to the woods to get high and act out against her upbringing!  That is childish and irresponsible.   The author of the article sympathizes on her because 1 he probably has a crush on her and 2 he is anti orthodoxy and another knee jerk liberal who automatically assumes the mother is just in every case, so the article takes that form and you get only her side of the story, which seems disturbing and twisted even when its biased towards her!

How do you know she was getting high with rebels in the woods? You got proof?

  IT'S IN THE ARTICLE.  SHE ADMITTED THIS.  ARE YOU BLIND?

Why is she an unfit mother

BECAUSE SHE'S SMOKING DOPE.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Dude, why are you going so crazy here? What is the deal, really?

Tell me what your beef is and also why you are screaming at Horselady, equally for no reason. (And I think that drug abuse, as wrongful and self-destructive as it is, does not compare to calling down hideous curses on your brothers and sisters and treating them as goyim because they don't believe what you do and don't accept your own "rebbe" as messiah.)

Where did I say that David Kelsey (owner of Kvetcher.net) has it all right or is a voice for all of Judaism? As you always do, you imagine that I say whatever you want me to! I used ONE excerpt from ONE poster to his blog in order to illustrate what is really common knowledge amongst NYC Jews as to what the Satmar believe. I do not know Yiddish and don't have any translations of what the Satmar rebbe himself wrote and taught offhand, but everybody knows what these guys are all about. They even live in a compound and cut themselves off from the rest of society because they don't want to be defiled by other Jews.

I don't know David Kelsey. From what I skimmed of Kvetcher, he strikes me as a guy who has seen a lot of stuff that has made him jaded and cynical, and because of that he sadly has the belief that all religious Jews are hypocritical and no-damn-good. Chaim said, in response to my post on Ask JTF, that when a fellow Jew is mistaken, our duty is to go out of our way to look for the good in him or her and correct him--indeed, that that is one of the hallmarks of Judaic philosophy that differentiates it from Christian theology. That is what we should be doing--acknowledging that he has seen stuff that has made him jaded and cynical, but telling him why he is wrong and why the things he attributes to all religious Jews are false. But with you it's just hate, hate, hate and condemn, condemn, condemn. That is Lashon Hara. You are speaking evil things of Kelsey, period. End of story.

Unless you can show me where I said that Kelsey is right to attack all religious Jews, I really am not interested in having this debate anymore, whatsoever. If, though, the only way you can win arguments is by putting words in your opponents' mouths, then I am having nothing more to do with this.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Dude, why are you going so crazy here? What is the deal, really?

(And I think that drug abuse, as wrongful and self-destructive as it is, does not compare to calling down hideous curses on your brothers and sisters and treating them as goyim because they don't believe what you do and don't accept your own "rebbe" as messiah.)

Did I compare this to drug abuse?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You called Gitty Gershwin (or whatever her name is) an unfit mother because of her drug use.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't know David Kelsey. From what I skimmed of Kvetcher, he strikes me as a guy who has seen a lot of stuff that has made him jaded and cynical, and because of that he sadly has the belief that all religious Jews are hypocritical and no-damn-good.

And this is relevant how?

But with you it's just hate, hate, hate and condemn, condemn, condemn. 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.   Only I don't hate hate hate despite what you say here.  This is just a lie.  Do I need to repeat that I am sick of your baseless slander? 

  That is Lashon Hara.

  Can you stop pretending you are an expert of Judaism?   really, can you stop? 

You are speaking evil things of Kelsey, period.

I am?  Quote me.   I have not spoken evil things.  QUOTE ME.

If, though, the only way you can win arguments is by putting words in your opponents' mouths, then I am having nothing more to do with this.

  But that's your expertise and that is how this started.  You stated that Satmar believe zionists are non Jews.   I asked you to prove it.   You failed miserably.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You called Gitty Gershwin (or whatever her name is) an unfit mother because of her drug use.

This wasn't a conversation with you, it was with someone else.  And mostly it has to do with me being tired of feminism and liberal leftism which says the man is always at fault.   I merely called out the hypocrisy.

Also, if the man is religious, forget about it.  Then he's doubly at fault.

[muman613]

I dont think this kind of squabbling is good for any of the parties involved. I happen to come down on KWRBTs side on this because as a Jew he is more knowledgeable about what Satmar is compared to CF whose opinion is valued, but only as opinion. Personally I dont defend the Satmar sect and believe it is completely wrong about its understanding of Moshiach.

But it seems that KWRBT is more forgiving of this sects ability to turn its back on its Jewish bretheren who struggle to make aliyah to the holy land. Not wanting to start a war but wanting to reveal my true feelings, in some ways I understand what they are saying. As I quoted from Torah in a recent posting, Hashem can vomit the Jewish people from the promised land if they dont keep the commandments. When I look at the current Israeli government I wonder if this is really what Hashem wanted. I too get so depressed when the gays march on the Holy City in defiance of Hashems will. The corrupt Olmert government raking in the bucks on the backs of the settlers who sacrificed everything to make Israel strong. Sometimes it is disgusting and makes me cry in my bed.

We have just begun the period in Judaism known as "The Three Weeks". From Sunday, June 20 through Sunday, August 10 are a period of national mourning, during which we focus on disasters that befell the Jewish people throughout history. One particularly significant tragedy is that on Tish B'Av {Ninth of the month Av} Moses broke the 1st tablets he brought down from Sinai when he saw the people dancing around the idol of the golden calf. On this day the 1st temple was destroyed by the Babylonians.

It is believed much of this tragedy was caused because of baseless hatred and evil speech. I would truely love it if all of us can make an example of our ability to come together on issues and not be divisive. This is a very tough challenge, and I myself am challenged.

May Hashem bless us with the strength to resist battle which is not necessary and strength to enter battle which is required.

muman613

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Chaim said, in response to my post on Ask JTF, that when a fellow Jew is mistaken, our duty is to go out of our way to look for the good in him or her and correct him--indeed, that that is one of the hallmarks of Judaic philosophy that differentiates it from Christian theology.

Unlike you, I an NOT ignorant of Judaism, so what Chaim said was nothing new to me.   What's incredibly funny about all this though is that you refuse to take this approach with Jewish groups that YOU disagree with.   You seem to think it only applies to Lubavitch and secular Jews, all of whom get a free pass with you while all other Jews are considered evil, like you consider Satmar.    I got news for you CF, I'm not Lubavitch, and I'm not secular, I'm a religious Jew, so why don't you call me "satmar" now or slander me to my face again?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, I disagree very strongly with Satmar beliefs and think they're wrong about a lot of stuff.  The difference is, I don't automatically hate them.   And they are not all the same either.     I also happen to disagree with some Chabad ideas, but according to cf that will probably label me as a "chabad-hater" which couldn't be further from the truth.  I'm not Lubavitch but I LOVE Chabad, and have had only positive experience with Chabadniks.

[muman613]

My experience with Chabad is awesome. I love my Chabad Rabbi and he loves me. You should see some of the pictures from last Purim party. I have nothing against Chabad except for the issue of Messianic Chabad. My good friend Yosef grew up in a Chabad family {of 12 brothers} and he tells me that only some Chabad rabbis really believe the Rebbe was Moshiach. But it is clear to any level headed Jew that Moshiachs mission must be complete in his lifetime.

The problem with Satmars view of Moshiach is that they believe that the Jews cannot enter the Holy Land until the other nations allow them to do so. Then Moshiach will come and the 3rd Temple will descend from heaven. I completely disagree with this understanding of the Moshiach.

Keep up the good work KWRBT but please lets keep the namecalling and animosity down as we move toward Tish B'Av.

Shalom Alechem,

muman613

[Ulli]

There is a tiny fringe minority of Jews, probably less then .005% (one-half of one percent), i.e. the two main splinter organizations (Voice of Judea and Revava) and some of the lunatic cults of Judaism (i.e. Satmarism) who are supremacist schmucks. They hate all Gentiles and all Jews who do not subscribe to their own elitist, exclusivist mentalities. If I am not mistaken, the Satmar and their offshoots the NK actually define all non-Satmar/NK Jews as goyim.

I even understand that a few Satmar have been known to indulge in immorality with shiksas and then justify it by claiming that since the women were goy, their indiscretions do not count since they were not actually involved with a human being.

Like all so-called "supremacists", such as the "white nationalists" who are voting for Obama in order to stick it to Jews (who, by and large, are white), these fools are complete hypocrites. They love to rattle the saber and beat their chests with idle talk of saving Israel, but they are really only out to try to destroy real Jewish nationalists they are jealous of (i.e. HaYamin HaAmiti). They hate JTF and Chaim more than they hate Arabs and Nazis, and as we all know, one of their organizations actually befriended and worked with known Nazis for a while. 

I just read the story of Gitty Grunwald  in the July 21 issue of New York Magazine who escaped from life as a Satmar wife
and lost her daughter in the process. That story horrified me as do many of the practices of Hasidic Jews. But this one
in particular made me feel ashamed to share a religion with these people.

Frankly, reading about the Satmar Jews didn't seem all that much different from the Muslim fundamentalists.

There's more to that story than meets the eye.

I also find it troubling that the knee-jerk reaction nowadays is automatically to assume the father is a criminal and the mother deserves custody any time parents split up.  T his is atrocious.

Fact:  The woman was getting high with hasidic rebels in the woods.  (and I won't suggest about her other behaviors.  But the getting stoned part was documented fact, in the article, And in the drug test!!!).    How can you possibly think the woman deserves custody?   SHe is not fit to be a mother if she is running off to the woods to get high and act out against her upbringing!  That is childish and irresponsible.   The author of the article sympathizes on her because 1 he probably has a crush on her and 2 he is anti orthodoxy and another knee jerk liberal who automatically assumes the mother is just in every case, so the article takes that form and you get only her side of the story, which seems disturbing and twisted even when its biased towards her!

How do you know she was getting high with rebels in the woods? You got proof? A drug test that wouldn't pass muster in any court of law? Why is she an unfit mother
just because she chose to reject the Satmar life where she is nothing more than a baby making machine with little freedom to do what she wants. Most US courts do grant custody to the mother as they should. She has a job, an apartment, and is not a junkie. She should get custody. To say the writer had the hots for her is childish.

I thought I've read a lot of criticism from time to time on this site re: the Satmars. Aren't they the ones who reject Israel as the Jewish state? Aren't they just like
the Muslims (minus the killing) in this opinion?

Look here is a story about her (of course from a leftist point of view):

http://nymag.com/news/features/48532/

I have read a part of the story and have seen the pictures of Gitty.

This woman is totally nuts. She uses her daughter to get attention from the media. The private life of righteous people doesn't belong to the public.

And she looks for me  like a prostitute and I am not so Victorian 

In my oppinion the little girl should be educated by the religious Jews and not by such a raven-mother. Perhaps she has to renounce some things, but in a long term she will be very lucky about this fact.

[Lisa]

I also read that NY Magazine article.  That Gitty did not help her case by allowing herself to be photographed in those immodest poses. 

[Ulli]

I also read that NY Magazine article.  That Gitty did not help her case by allowing herself to be photographed in those immodest poses. 

Wow it was very long. I just finished it.

Sorry - Gitty is a total mentalcase.

She lost custody, because she was smoking  cannabis. How stupid can somebody be?

And I don't believe, that the Rabbis watches the underwear of every women after the end of her cycle. This is so overstated. If this would be the case they would have no time for other tasks.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think we can agree to agree that Gitty has many problems, and is messed-up, and is no example that any Jew should follow in the least. That being said, I am sure that the cultic environment of the Satmar didn't do anything whatsoever for her mental health. Both she and her Satmar family are utterly unfit to care for as much as a frog. However, that being said, in my opinion, I think G-d will judge someone who deliberately chooses hatred of fellow Jews, and who sides with the Muslims against Israel, over a garden-variety drug-addled nutcase.

I still do not agree with this wanton hatred of David Kelsey, who as far as I can see is just really misguided and ignorant and not a kapo. I am quite sure that if he met genuine, true religious Jews such as Chaim Ben Pesach, that he would change his tune, or at least stop and think about his worldview. The reason why I judge Satmar much more harshly than him is because although he is deeply critical of religious Judaism, he is not supporting Islam or arguing that Israel should not exist. There is a difference in the magnitude of what they are doing.

[horselady]

And she looks for me  like a prostitute and I am not so Victorian 

Good grief. 

[horselady]

I think G-d will judge someone who deliberately chooses hatred of fellow Jews, and who sides with the Muslims against Israel, over a garden-variety drug-addled nutcase.

The reason why I judge Satmar much more harshly than him is because although he is deeply critical of religious Judaism, he is not supporting Islam or arguing that Israel should not exist. There is a difference in the magnitude of what they are doing.

I agree.

[Shamgar]

She looks to me like a young girl that did not and does not have the strong and healthy influence and support of a mother and father.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Whatever according to cf's view next time a mexican rapes and kills somebody we then should have a right to blame him for it because he is mexican. Or the next time a white guy does a crime all whities should be concidered criminals.  This guy hates Jews and is a sicko. If I meet him on the street and he would say something like that I would punch him in the face and call him an anti-semite.

 P.S. to Jews, we need unity and to love eachother, we shouldn't let some sickos try to divide us, even if they claim they support Jews  .