Refuting the Khazar myth

[q_q_]

I have heard of letters between rabbis outside and jews inside khazaria. It was a jewish state of sorts there. And it's nothing to be ashamed of.

[muman613]

And there is documented physical evidence that a Jewish nation existed there.

[islamophobe]

It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.

Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.

[/quote]


And why should we leave Jewish law out of this?

Israel is the Jewish homeland and all Jews are entitled to live there. Why should we let anti-semites set the terms of the debate?
[/quote]

The reason that I believe that Jewish law, as in oral tradition as opposed to Biblical scripture does not have a place in this discussion is becuase, Jewish law is not the common denominator, even among Jews themselves. While both Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews believe in a common oral tradition, Ethiopian Jews who have been proven through genetic surveys not to be Semites, but descendants of conversts just like the Khazars, do not have the same oral traditions as the Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews. This is due to the fact that since their conversion by Jewish Red Sea merchants, they have remained isolated from every other Jewish community.

The issue here is if Jews descended from Khazars heavily outnumber the Jews descended from Israelites, then we may not have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. This is the case that anti-semitic groups are trying to make.

Suppose hypothetically that Hitler had succeeded in wiping out every Ashkenazi Jew, and his ally the Mufti had succeeded in wiping out every Sefardic Jew (as he had been planning to do once the British were driven from their Middle East colonies). All that were left now were Ethiopian Jews, whom they would regard as just another black cult. With no other Jews around, would they have a legitimate claim to Israel having not a single drop of Israelite blood in their veins?

According to the Bible, Israel is the only piece of real estate promised by G-d to only one people as an eternal inheritance. This people being the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. After our exodus from Egypt several times this promise along with obligations of fullfilling G-d's commandments were put upon the Israelites and the stranger/convert (singular) IN THEIR (plural) MIDST.

From this we see that a nation of converts alone, has no claim to Israel. But only as a minority accepted into an overwhelmingly Israelite majority. Similar to our laws of the Kosher diet (ie: nullified in the majority/bitul b'rov, in 60/bitul b'shishim, in 100/bitul b'meah).

And from what we've discussed thus far, from genetic, linguistic, and cultural evidence, the descendants of the Khazars represent a miniscule portion of the Jewish nation as a whole, if any at all, and since the fall of the Khazar kingdom at the turn of the 1st millenium, those few that survived and did not convert out of Judaism were absorbed into mainstream Jewish communities.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What exactly are the Khazars (ethnically, culturally, racially, etc.)?

[q_q_]

<snip>

I have no idea what any of your reasoning here is at all.. I am watching a video at the same time, but still..

Look..

you said that if most jews are khazars we have no claim to the land of israel.

Firstly, jews are not mostly of that descent. Neither Ashkenazim or of course Sefaradim, are not.

Secondly converts have the same claim to israel as any jew

Our claim to israel is -not- because out ancestors were there , I mean, (we were always there in small numbers at least) but, ruled there, 2000 years ago. That's not our claim to be there. Though some may feel that way, and rabbi kahane used that.

And  even when rabbi kahane made the argument about the 2000 years.. As he did on one morning show on youtube.  The host said, how can I justify that to myself. Rabbi Kahane said, "well, I don't care, whether you can  justify it to yourself or not" , to which the host laughed. And Rabbi Kahane said, many jews -do- feel that way, that it is their home. And so that is the issue that he is dealing with, and the arab problem in israel.

The real reason is the torah says it's our land.  And it doesn't matter if one is a convert or not.

[muman613]

In the 7th century C.E., the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea. Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists, many of them converted to Christianity, Islam, and other religions. During the eighth or ninth century the state religion became Judaism. At their height, the Khazar khaganate and its tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Caucasus (including Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya, and parts of Georgia), and the Crimea.

[q_q_]

if ethopians are not descendeed from israelites, and they follow a non orthodox (but serious unlike Reform e.t.c) form of judaism, and they believe that one cannot convert, then they have a problem.
For them. And would mean that maybe they have no basis for believing they have a claim to the land of israel. But whose business is that other than theirs.  That's entirely nonsensical speculation anyway.. And nothing whatsoever to do with khazars.

I have no idea what your reasoning is at all

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It does not matter whether there are Jews who are descendants of the Khazars or not.

Once someone converts to Judaism they are a Jew and have a right to live in in Eretz Israel.

And why should we leave Jewish law out of this?

Israel is the Jewish homeland and all Jews are entitled to live there. Why should we let anti-semites set the terms of the debate?

The reason that I believe that Jewish law, as in oral tradition as opposed to Biblical scripture does not have a place in this discussion is becuase, Jewish law is not the common denominator, even among Jews themselves. While both Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews believe in a common oral tradition, Ethiopian Jews who have been proven through genetic surveys not to be Semites, but descendants of conversts just like the Khazars, do not have the same oral traditions as the Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews. This is due to the fact that since their conversion by Jewish Red Sea merchants, they have remained isolated from every other Jewish community.

The issue here is if Jews descended from Khazars heavily outnumber the Jews descended from Israelites, then we may not have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. This is the case that anti-semitic groups are trying to make.

It sounds as though your beliefs about the Ethiopian Jews are incorrect.   Also, I'm not sure the basis of the statement "if Jews descended from Khazars heavily outnumber the Jews descended from Israelites, then we may not have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel."    You have no way of knowing what percentage of people are descendent from converts, what percentage from Israelites, what percentage of Khazars.   Aside from that, there is nowhere stated that if the population becomes to full of converts, suddenly our mandate on the land is lost.   The Torah says clearly we will be driven from the land if we sin, and if not we will stay and receive blessings.   It states clearly, not metaphor, several times that we are an eternal nation.   So if you think too high a percentage of converts makes us 'no longer the Jewish nation,' and no longer with a right to Israel, then this means that that will never happen (ie we're eternal nation so it will never become primarily converts to "disqualify us" so to speak in your strange hypothetical).   But in reality, I think such an idea is absurd (although I could be wrong) and so really it's saying that no matter what happens, always there will be a remnant that survives and keeps the nation going, even if it's small, or mostly converts, or all kohanim, or anything like that.   That's what the eternal nation means.   I'm not sure what you base this argument on about too many or too little converts.

Why do you on the one hand say Jewish law should be kept out of the discussion but then on the other hand, you cite the Torah and an explanation from jewish law as to why that should be the case!   You say jewish law shouldn't be considered.... because in Jewish law, the nation has to be primarily descended from such and such and in kosher law, a 60th of such and such.... lol, how is this an explanation for excluding Jewish law?  You are using Jewish law here!   In that case incorporate the whole body.   In that case, you have no argument.   A convert is fully Jewish.  And obviously so are his descendents.    Even if we WERE mostly khazarian, which I don't think is even remotely true or would be possible to prove even if it was true...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

<snip>

Our claim to israel is -not- because out ancestors were there , I mean, (we were always there in small numbers at least) but, ruled there, 2000 years ago. That's not our claim to be there. Though some may feel that way, and rabbi kahane used that.

I think he said in one talk that it's not ours because of 2000 years ago because then the arabs can say it's theirs because of 60 years ago.   He said it's not ours because 2000 yrs ago we ruled and lived here but because the Torah says it's ours and always will be.    As you said later in your post.   But the 2000 yrs ago argument I'm not so certain that was how Rabbi Kahane used it (the first way you describe, the second way in the morning show  yes).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The Kazars were a nation and Kingdom. According to the books their king was interested in finding out the truth and following which Religion. He summoned Christian and Muslim representatives (because they were growing their influence at the time) and asked them why he should follow their religion. (actualy he also called for representatives and teachers of certain Philosophy also). So as they were speaking expecially the Chritians and Muslims they kept proving that G-d is real and that He revealed himself in front of Million of people (the Children of Israel). So then the king sent for a representative of the children of Israel to come and talk.
 To make a long story short the King of Kuzaria had debates and talks between the different religions and philosophers and then choose Judaism out of all of them. So he converted, many of the nobility converted, and what happened to the rest of the population remains a mystery. BUT their was tolerence in the kingdom and also their were great Rabbis (for example from Spain) who wrote to the King (and the royal house who were Jewish) asking about the kingdom, and some went to visit, etc.  Eventually the Kingdom was conquered by outside fources and it was no more.

[q_q_]

<snip>

Our claim to israel is -not- because out ancestors were there , I mean, (we were always there in small numbers at least) but, ruled there, 2000 years ago. That's not our claim to be there. Though some may feel that way, and rabbi kahane used that.

I think he said in one talk that it's not ours because of 2000 years ago because then the arabs can say it's theirs because of 60 years ago.   He said it's not ours because 2000 yrs ago we ruled and lived here but because the Torah says it's ours and always will be.    As you said later in your post.   But the 2000 yrs ago argument I'm not so certain that was how Rabbi Kahane used it (the first way you describe, the second way in the morning show  yes).

I only described one way thta rabbi kahane used that argument, that was on the morning show.

He did often express the jewish connection to the land.. to win hearts I think. And it's good in the sense that nobody can argue with a feeling. And many jews do not believe in the torah but still love israel - for that feeling perhaps.

[Shlomo]

Kuzar is not a myth. It is part of Jewish history. Here is an excellent book I have on the subject. I have studied Kuzar and read the Kuzari. It is ridiculous to call it a myth. Why do you have a need to dismiss it as myth?

The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar
The Rise and Fall of the Legendary Country of Converts
Rabbi Zelig Schachnowitz
Feldheim Publishers
ISBN: 9781583309292
Pages: 208
Synopsis: Over one thousand years ago, did the population of an entire pagan country, nestled between the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas and secluded in the forests of the Crimea, really convert to Judaism? Or is it just the stuff of legend?

http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=978-1-58330-929-2

Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau.

That's absurd. You can't call yourself a Jew if you don't believe in Jewish law. Judaism is what makes a Jew a Jew to begin with. If there's no such thing as the Torah, G-d forbid, then what on earth defines you as being a "Jew"? What tells you that if a mother is Jewish and the father is not then the child is Jewish? What defines the rules for what makes a Jew? It's preposterous to say you are Jewish if you deny the very thing that defines you as Jewish.

Have you even read the Kuzari? It would do you good.

[islamophobe]

Kahane-was-right BT, we do have a way of knowing which Jews were descended entirely from Israelites, and which converted from from other nations such as the Khazars, and those are the genetic studies conducted by University of Arizona researchers which confirmed that the majority of Jews both Sephardic and Ashkenazic are Israelites. The example of Kashrut is just an analogy.

That study was done on the Y-Chromosome (paternal lineage). Here's a link to a study done on Mitochondrial DNA (maternal lineage) that shows the majority of Jews are descended from 4 women. Confirmation of another Biblical fact.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

Throughout the Bible, the land of Israel is repeatedly promised to the DESCENDANTS of Abraham, through his son Isaac, through his son Jacob. And that is to be taken literally as blood descendants. Only later is this promise extended to the stranger/convert (singular) that dwells among you (plural). It's not rocket science.

Shlomo, you missed about 3 pages worth of discussion, and then you jump down my throat. I never said it was a myth I know what their history is. Jewish law about conversions is not a valid argument here to disprove the false accusations about our our people, because many Jews can't even come to a consensus on Jewish law, let alone the rest of the world. Biblical scripture as a historical reference on the other hand is accepted throughout the entire civilized world. Results of genetic surveys don't lie. Neither do linguistic studies.

The whole point of this thread was to get you guys to do research on your own history and present facts to refute anti-Semitic myths.

QQ, either read the posts or watch videos, not both at the same time, then maybe you'll be able to follow my logic.

Am I using too many big words for you guys? Pee pee kaka poo poo?

[muman613]

Kuzar is not a myth. It is part of Jewish history. Here is an excellent book I have on the subject. I have studied Kuzar and read the Kuzari. It is ridiculous to call it a myth. Why do you have a need to dismiss it as myth?

The Jewish Kingdom of Kuzar
The Rise and Fall of the Legendary Country of Converts
Rabbi Zelig Schachnowitz
Feldheim Publishers
ISBN: 9781583309292
Pages: 208
Synopsis: Over one thousand years ago, did the population of an entire pagan country, nestled between the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas and secluded in the forests of the Crimea, really convert to Judaism? Or is it just the stuff of legend?

http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=978-1-58330-929-2

Once again, leave Jewish law and beliefs out of this discussion. Just because I believe in flipppity floppity floo, doesn't entitle me to be the King of Papua New Guineau.

That's absurd. You can't call yourself a Jew if you don't believe in Jewish law. Judaism is what makes a Jew a Jew to begin with. If there's no such thing as the Torah, G-d forbid, then what on earth defines you as being a "Jew"? What tells you that if a mother is Jewish and the father is not then the child is Jewish? What defines the rules for what makes a Jew? It's preposterous to say you are Jewish if you deny the very thing that defines you as Jewish.

Have you even read the Kuzari? It would do you good.

Shlomo,

I am reading this book too. I have quoted it twice in this thread... Some people just dont want to believe the facts...

muman613

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Kahane-was-right BT, we do have a way of knowing which Jews were descended entirely from Israelites, and which converted from from other nations such as the Khazars,

NO, we don't.   These methods are very indirect and VERY speculative.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Throughout the Bible, the land of Israel is repeatedly promised to the DESCENDANTS of Abraham, through his son Isaac, through his son Jacob. And that is to be taken literally as blood descendants. Only later is this promise extended to the stranger/convert (singular) that dwells among you (plural). It's not rocket science.

So what if it's later?   If you challenge the authority of what comes 'later,' then why not challenge the authority of the earlier pronouncements too?    You have a bizarre line of reasoning here.   Once they join the Jewish nation (ie convert), they are part of the nation.  The nation has a promise to the land regardless of what percentage of people join in.


Either you accept the biblical account and Jewish law or you don't.   If you do, then you accept it all.  Then there's no argument.   If you don't accept the biblical account, that's another story entirely, and it's not really for us to argue it since that is where the whole concept comes from and I don't have to "justify" it.   If one doesn't believe it, too bad.   I don't believe koran, communist manifesto and lots of other stuff.   But you can't use half a Jewish concept to prove your case and then say the Jewish concepts taken to their completion somehow "don't count" and should be excluded from discussion.

[q_q_]

He's a theory.

The thing at issue here, is that islamophobe is not jewish, and his religious beliefs define a jew in a certain way, whatever that is, but not allowing converts.

And he expects jews here to buy into his beliefs.   And he's not willing to -admit- that what he is presenting or pretending, is reasoning, is actually just his own beliefs. That is why he has refused to address the refutations presented to him.

[islamophobe]

He's a theory.

The thing at issue here, is that islamophobe is not jewish, and his religious beliefs define a jew in a certain way, whatever that is, but not allowing converts.

And he expects jews here to buy into his beliefs.   And he's not willing to -admit- that what he is presenting or pretending, is reasoning, is actually just his own beliefs. That is why he has refused to address the refutations presented to him.

Wrong again QQ. I am Jewish, and the only beliefs I expect other Jews and anyone else reading the thread to buy into are that we ARE the blood descendants of the Israelites of the Bible. How about you go on youtube and run a search on the word "Khazar" and see how many malicious anti-semitic videos you'll pull up.

The whole point of this thread was to bring evidence against those claims. Because the braindead MTV generation that loves a good conspiracy theory believes the lies in those videos.

And I never said that Judaism does not allow converts. Once again you are twisting my words without bothering to read them.

And Muman613 I know who the medieval Khazars were, thank you very much. I read the wikipedia article whose introduction you copied, pasted, and posted word for word.

And what facts are you guys trying presenting that I refused to address?

[Shlomo]

This entire thing about genetics equates to materialism. Our true identities are not our physical bodies.

Also, it is a grave sin to exclude true converts because they are completely Jewish. There are four types of people the Torah tells us to be extra careful with... Torah scholars, orphans, widows, and converts.

You either except the Torah or you do not.

[islamophobe]

Schlomo, maybe genetics is meaningless to you, but to the entire gentile world, our physical bodies as you say ARE our identities. And the again the reason I want to leave Jewish law (Torah she'b'aal peh/oral tradition) out of this discussion is because it is not accepted as a legitmate source outside the Jewish religion. This is not the same as Biblical scripture (Torah she'b'ktav) which is accepted not only by Jews, but also by Christians, and even by athiests and agnostics who see historical fact in it.

This would be like a Muslim trying to make the case to the civilized world that because the Koran says any peice of land once Muslim is forever Muslim, and the Koran does not allow a Muslim to sell land to an infidel, so any contracts made between the Yishuv and the Ottoman Turks are null and void. And the Koran also says that infidels living in Muslim lands like Spain (once Muslim, always Muslim) must accept the status of Dhimmis (second class citizens) and pay the jizya (extortion money). Well the civilized world doesn't believe in the Koran, so that whole argument falls flat on it's face.

Likewise, when making a case about our claim to Israel, to not only Jews but gentiles as well, oral tradition is NOT a common denominator.

I know what the Bible says about converts, thank you very much.
The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were strangers in Egypt. I am the L-RD your G-d.
Leviticus 19:34

if ethopians are not descendeed from israelites, and they follow a non orthodox (but serious unlike Reform e.t.c) form of judaism, and they believe that one cannot convert, then they have a problem.
For them. And would mean that maybe they have no basis for believing they have a claim to the land of israel. But whose business is that other than theirs.  That's entirely nonsensical speculation anyway.. And nothing whatsoever to do with khazars.

I have no idea what your reasoning is at all

The reason the case of Ethiopian Jews is relevant, is because like the Khazars, an Asian nation foreign to the blood line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, accepted upon themselves the obligations of Judaism, the Ethiopians are a nation that is just as foreign to that blood line, did the same. I never said that neither Ethiopians, nor Khazars weren't Jews if their conversions were authentic. Don't twist my words. If you can't see the obvious comparison, then I am using too many big words for you.

Not only is genetics relevant for this discussion, it is relevant throughout the Bible. Some good examples are:
1. A bastard can only marry another bastard to legitmize the next generation.
2. Egyptian converts can only marry into the general population, after 3 generations.
3. Moabites can never be accepted as converts, no matter how long after the Exodus.
4. Amalekites are to be exterminated entirely, no matter how many genrations after the incident at Rephidim.
5. G-d's promise to redeem the Jewish people not on our own merit but on His promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

[muman613]

.
.
.

Not only is genetics relevant for this discussion, it is relevant throughout the Bible. Some good examples are:
1. A bastard can only marry another bastard to legitmize the next generation.
2. Egyptian converts can only marry into the general population, after 3 generations.
3. Moabites can never be accepted as converts, no matter how long after the Exodus.
4. Amalekites are to be exterminated entirely, no matter how many genrations after the incident at Rephidim.
5. G-d's promise to redeem the Jewish people not on our own merit but on His promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

Well, the law about marrying Moabites was modified... Remember the story of Ruth:

1 And it came to pass in the days when the judges judged, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Beth-lehem in Judah went to sojourn in the field of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.  2 And the name of the man was Elimelech, and the name of his wife Naomi, and the name of his two sons Mahlon and Chilion, Ephrathites of Beth-lehem in Judah. And they came into the field of Moab, and continued there.  3 And Elimelech Naomi's husband died; and she was left, and her two sons.  4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab: the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth; and they dwelt there about ten years.  5 And Mahlon and Chilion died both of them; and the woman was left of her two children and of her husband.  6 Then she arose with her daughters-in-law, that she might return from the field of Moab; for she had heard in the field of Moab how that the LORD had remembered His people in giving them bread.

muman613

Ruth of biblical fame was originally a Moabite princess. She later converted to Judaism and was the ancestress of King David, and ultimately, the Messiah.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/644180/jewish/What-was-Ruths-ancestry.htm

[Shlomo]

islamophobe, I disagree that our bodies are our identities. Do you know why we wear clothes? Because deep down in our subconscious, it's our way of saying "I am not my body. Look at my soul - not at my flesh. I'm in here."

Also, I did not say that genetics weren't important. Without the body, we'd have no vehicle to accomplish anything in this physical world. But do not make the mistake to think that you are your body. You body is more like the horse for your soul.

Genetics may play an important role sometimes and might even define certain physical attributes... but the body dies and the soul continues on. The body is only a tool and too many materialistic people make the moronic assumption that they are their bodies. It doesn't even take a rocket scientist to know that our thoughts, desires, motivations, ethics, culture, memories, communication and all of our emotions [in their entirety from love to hate] have no DNA. The list goes on.

And trying to convince an antisemitic peace of garbage that he is wrong is a lesson in futility. There isn't any logic you can provide them to change their minds. They live in fantasy because the fantasy they concocted is completely based on an end result they want. Logic can't get past the emotions of insane people. We try to reach those who are reachable.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

And trying to convince an antisemitic peace of garbage that he is wrong is a lesson in futility. There isn't any logic you can provide them to change their minds. They live in fantasy because the fantasy they concocted is completely based on an end result they want. Logic can't get past the emotions of insane people. We try to reach those who are reachable.

That's exactly what I said, Jeffguy. The goblins who persist in believing in the Khazar lie, in the Liberty Ship hoax, the blood-matzo libel, or any of the other infinite Nazi fairytales that flow through the world's sewage systems are beyond hope. They are like Pharaoh--G-d has hardened their hearts so they are incapable of leaving their demonic deception. Their only purpose on this earth is to be fuel for the eternal fire.

[islamophobe]

Muman613 Ruth's conversion was controversial at the time and is the exception to the rule. Someone more knowledgeable on the issue than myself can elaborate on why.

Shlomo, in terms of desires, motivations, and emotions genetics plays a very big part. It's been proven that some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism and other addictions, as well as depression and other psychological problems. It does not change the fact that we still have free choice, so if you blow a months paycheck on booze and leave your family to do without, or you go postal and hurt yourself or those around you, you are still responsible. These predispositions can looked at as G-d's way of testing us individually. We all have free choice, but your genetics for better or for worse influences the decisions you make.

Again I have to reiterrate that I did not start this thread to convince anti-Semites of anything. Duke, Ahmedinejad, Christian identity cultists, and black hebros themselves do not believe a word of their own lies. They do not need to be convinced. But if you do a google or youtube search on the word 'Khazar', you will find countless articles about the ZOG, the protocols, Talmudic racism, the zionist usurpation of pal-estine, the 'holohoax', Muhamad Al-Dura, USS Liberty, Mossad involvement in ABu Ghraib, etc. The lies about us are being spread by the bucket loads and we need to counter those lies with facts. The crowd we need to reach are the college kids that are currently being indoctrinated by marxist professors. The lies spread about us are not only dangerous to us but also to these naive young kids. Just run a google search on Rachel Corrie and you'll see what I'm talking about.