Unbelievable Self-Hatred: "Orthodox" Jews in Israel Use Muzzies as Shabbos Goyim

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Gruzinit, did you see Tzvi stating that there is nothing inherently wrong with what these so-called observant Jews did?

[muman613]

Seriously, if you will trust an Arab to take your pregnant wife to the hospital so you don't break shabbat, then maybe you shouldn't be a parent at all!!

When I was seven-years old, I came down with a 102 degree fever on a friday night. Before my mom could get the thermometer out of my mouth, my father was dressed and ready to take me to the ER.

These "Orthodox Jews" would probably not fight in a war for fear of breaking Shabbat by engaging in military battle.

Gruznit,

Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.

muman613

PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.

I'm not afraid of offending people if I'm standing up for something I believe in muman613. My criticisms was never against Orthodox Jews in general, but against those(Religous and Secular alike) who entrust the lives of their families with Arabs because they are afraid G-d will punish them for turning on the air conditioner, or worse driving your wife to the hospital to deliever your baby when you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself.

I was simply contrasting this behavior to that of my father. While not fully observant, we did try our best to keep Shabbat, but when my father saw my health in jeopardy, he would never get a gentile to take me to the hospital because I was his responsibility!!!

And if you want a good example of the danger this can lead to, look at the tragedies at Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva and the Arab who used a bulldozer to kill 4 Jews. both being Arab workers who used their accessibility to inflict maximum damage. So be offended, I care more about the Jews who are being killed because of this idiocy.

Gruzinit,

There are ways and there are ways. By inciting people to talk lashon hara you are doing a great sin. Do you think this kind of talk makes things better? Everyone knows that there are people who do things which are wrong. Also, there is no sin in driving your wife to the hospital when it is a matter of life and death. Do you think that Torah doesnt have the answer to these kinds of problems? Does Hashem ask us things to do which are too hard? I really dont think so.

So maybe you feel better by knocking these people. Also, according to this report it is the perspective of the arab. Who knows if he is lying or trying to make people look bad. Are there witnesses that this person actually does the things he says he does? In order for a Jew to condemn another it requires two witnesses and a rebuke before he does it. I am not willing in this case to come down on the side of severity.

muman613

PS: I may be in the minority decision here, but I have my reasons for judging favorably.

PPS: After re-reading it it seems some have come out to support him. Those should be taught that it is wrong to use people like this. I think a recent halachic ruling determined that Arabs should not be trusted for important work.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman, can you provide a Torah defense for what these so-called religious Jews did?

Do you honestly believe that Torah teaches that Jews should pay Amalek to drive family members to the hospital during emergencies?

Can you show me what Gruzinit said wrong?

[q_q_]

A shabbos goy is not needed for life and death situations. Nobody thinks of a shabbos goy for that.
you can "break shabbat" if a life is at risk .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_under_Jewish_law        "One is allowed to drive a woman to a hospital on Shabbat to give birth"

Things one cannot do on shabbat but kind of needs to, are little things, like turning off an alarm that probably shouldn't have gone off in the first place.  Infact most cases of a shabbos goy just involve walking in and pushing a button. and not for a whole community but pehaps for a jewish neighbour.  A rare occurrence, for when something goes wrong (alarm or light needs turning off).

i've never heard of a shabbos goy doing it as a paid job.. And because it involves rare little things, the idea of it being a paid job is a joke.  It's just something done by a nice non-jewish neighbour.  Though this is a bit different, it includes important jobs, and it's one guy that serves a large community.

they've obviously found some loophole to pay him..

I must say though, some jews would rather leave the alarm on or break shabbat and turn it off themselves than ask the gentile neighbour to turn the alarm off!!!!!!
Because of worry about what the gentile will think!

[muman613]

Muman, can you provide a Torah defense for what these so-called religious Jews did?

Do you honestly believe that Torah teaches that Jews should pay Amalek to drive family members to the hospital during emergencies?

Can you show me what Gruzinit said wrong?

CF,

I dont want to get into the issue about WHO IS AMALEK. It is a question which requires answering for me to answer your question. According to Jewish belief the Arabs are descended from Ishmael, not Amalek. The last known Amalekites were the Persians, as Haman was a descendant of Amalek. Check out this link: https://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=3254 or http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/1369/jewish/Haman.htm .

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_16_-_King_Saul.asp
IDEOLOGY OF AMALEK

To this day, history continues to struggle with the consequences of Saul's mistake.

The Amalekite nation survives and Agag lives long enough to father a child before he is killed by the Prophet Samuel.

Today, we have no way of identifying the descendants of Amalek -- his descendents a mixed in amongst the nations, but we do know that the Amalekite ideology lives on. There has been more than one occasion when people have arisen bent on exterminating the Jews. The Bible itself mentions that the battle with Amalek represents the ultimate struggle in history between good evil with total victory achieved only at the End of Days.

...I [G-d] shall surely erase the memory of Amalek from under the heavens...G-d maintains a war against Amalek from generation to generation." (Exodus 17:14-16)

One such example was Haman, the Persian minister who tried to annihilate the Jews in the time of Queen Esther (355 B.C.E.). And Hitler certainly espoused Amalekite ideology:

    Yes, we are barbarians! We want to be barbarians. It is an honorable title to us ... Providence has ordained that I should be the greatest liberator of humanity. I free man from ... the degrading self-mortification of a false vision called conscience and morality ... Conscience is a Jewish invention. (Hitler Speaks, pp. 87, 220-222.)

And looking at Hitler and the Holocaust we can understand that such intense hatred as the Bible ascribes to Amalek can exist in the world. The Nazis wanted to kill every Jew. A Jew could have been assimilated, intermarried with Christians for three generations but that didn't matter; the Nazis were bent on killing anyone with the slightest bit of Jewish heritage -- they were bent on wiping out any trace of the Jewish people and Jewish influence.

The only thing which I disagree with is talking lashon hara about people I dont know and I dont know the facts about. I think rebuke is good if done correctly. Actually, one of the lessons in this weeks Torah Portion is about giving rebuke to the children of Israel in a manner which is acceptable. Read Rashi on the Parasha of Devarim {which we read this Saturday}.

http://www.tachash.org/metsudah/d01r.html
RASHI ON DEVARIM
Verse 1: These are the words.

    Because these are words of admonishment,1 and [because] he [Moshe] intended to recount here2 all the places where they [the Israelites] angered the Almighty,3 he therefore said these words in an obscure manner and only intimated [that they sinned in these places] to uphold the honor of Israel.

    To all of Yisroel.

    Had he admonished [only] some of them,4 those that were in the market place could have said, "You heard what the son of Amram said [about us] and did not refute him about anything; had we been there we would have refuted [his charges]." Therefore, he gathered all of them, and said to them, "You are all present here, he who can refute [me], let him refute [me].5

    In the wilderness.

    They were not in the wilderness but in the plains of Moav. What then is the meaning of {Hebrew Ref} ? It is mentioned here because6 they had angered G-d in the wilderness when they said "If only we had died [by the hand of Ad-noy,] etc."7

    In the Arava plain.

    Because it was at Arava8 that they had sinned through Baal Peor at Shittim9 in the plains of Moav.

I do agree it is wrong to employ people who may kill us in order to avoid doing Shabbos Melachos.

muman613

[q_q_]

the arabs claim descent from yishmael(Semite), and canaan(the Chamite/hamite) behave like amalek, and the ones in israel call themselves palestinians after the philistines.

That makes them like a 4 fold enemy!!

note- going down the father line, you either hit shem cham or yafet, not a combination! yishmael was a shemite, Canaan was a hamite.  But spiritually.. In their minds, they are all these enemies rolled into one.

Maybe even 5 enemies.. maybe they are Magog too
(prophecy about Gog king of a nation, Magog, who attacks israel)..

Note- In islam, they have Gog and(not of) Magog, one muslim told me they are 2 giants in another dimension who are battling to get out and one day , muslims think, will!
“But when Gog and Magog are let loose and they rush headlong down every height (or advantage). Then will the True Promise draw near - (Qur'an 21:96-97) „
googling picked up some interpretation about alexander the great. Who by the way, many muslims seriously believe was a muslim prophet!!!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I dont see why anyone would be upset for the fact that he or she is used, and Jews do not break the Shabbat. (Its not like, if they are not asked, that will magically make all the arabs disappear).

Please tell me that you are not defending using Muslim Nazis as Shabbat flunkies.

"shabbat flunkies" lol

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Gruznit,

Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.

muman613

PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.

Muman, Gruzinit is right on this. Hiring Muslim Nazis to take care of your wives and children is absolutely indefensible under any circumstances. The kind of Jews who do this aren't doing so because they care about following G-d's laws--these are the kinds of Jews who enjoy "cheap" Arab labor and doing business with these animals and pigs. These are kapos and traitors, pure and simple, and there is nothing that can undo that.

So CF, are you calling all Ultra-Orthodox who live in Jerusalem ...traitors? I hope not...

First off, it's not being a "traitor" or those other horrible terms CF used to do what these Jews are doing, but it is really STUPID and I think all of us here can agree on that, but let's be clear - NOT ALL ULTRA ORTHODOX JEWS in Jerusalem or anywhere, would TRUST A MUSLIM WITH DRIVING THEIR PREGNANT WIFE!!!  The ones who do, I would have to say, are insane!  But this does not mean all "ultra orthodox" do or are!

And as far as I know, you are allowed to break Shabbat to bring a pregnant woman to the hospital.   Am I wrong?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

First off, it's not being a "traitor" or those other horrible terms CF used to do what these Jews are doing,

Excuse me? This goes WAY beyond stupid. These are not ignorant people--indeed, they are some of the most educated on the planet. My epithets for the individuals engaging in this behavior were COMPLETELY appropriate.

but it is really STUPID and I think all of us here can agree on that

No. "Stupid" is picking up some bum off the street to do your yard or giving your phone number out to some sleazeball in a bar. This is just morally perverse. Kahanist or not, you can't tell me that there are sincere religious Jews who are honestly not aware that Arabs aren't nice people.

NOT ALL ULTRA ORTHODOX JEWS in Jerusalem or anywhere, would TRUST A MUSLIM WITH DRIVING THEIR PREGNANT WIFE!!!

Agreed 100%. In fact, I actually said that all genuine religious Jews would consider that an abomination.

The ones who do, I would have to say, are insane!

They're more than insane, they're evil, and the blood the Jews that their workers murder is on their hands.

But this does not mean all "ultra orthodox" do or are!

Nobody here ever said that most Orthodox Israelis hire Arabs to do Shabbat work for them.

And as far as I know, you are allowed to break Shabbat to bring a pregnant woman to the hospital.   Am I wrong?

I would have assumed this, and thought about saying it here, but figured that it wouldn't be appropriate for me to admonish this as a Gentile.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Beyond stupid or not, the terms you used have actual definitions.   When you call everyone and his brother the term that doesn't really apply to the situation, it ceases to have meaning at all....

[Rubystars]

Just because they're being stupid doesn't make them traitors. They might not realize that by hiring this Muslim that they may be indirectly harming their own community. I'm sure this Muzzy puts himself off as a real upstanding guy. I don't think it's good to judge them, C.F., but I do think what we should do in this situation is try to help people see the nature of the Muslim for what he is, a dangerous element they're letting amongst their most vulnerable.

[muman613]

Just because they're being stupid doesn't make them traitors. They might not realize that by hiring this Muslim that they may be indirectly harming their own community. I'm sure this Muzzy puts himself off as a real upstanding guy. I don't think it's good to judge them, C.F., but I do think what we should do in this situation is try to help people see the nature of the Muslim for what he is, a dangerous element they're letting amongst their most vulnerable.

Thank you for your understanding. It is ok to make personal judgement, I have no issue with that. But openly discussing such things only makes all Orthodox Jews look bad. At least in my opinion.

Thanks again,
muman613

[Lisa]

Here's how I see it.

My parents are fairly observant Jews, even though they drive, and turn lights on and off on Shabbat. 

Now when I go to visit them some weekends, they'll use a hot plate to keep food made the previous day heated.  My mother plugs the plate in on Friday night, leaves it plugged in all day Saturday, then turns it off Saturday night. 

As for turning the lights on and off, that's still no excuse to employ a Shabbos Goy.  During Yom Kippur, my parents would always tape certain lights on, and others off, so us kids knew not to touch them.  So I don't understand why these people in Jerusalem couldn't do the same thing every Friday night for Shabbat. 

And finally, using an Arab Shabbos Goy to drive your pregnant wife to the hospital to deliver a baby is ridiculous.  You are allowed to break Shabbat if it's a matter of a life being at stake.  So I'm going to have to agree with Gruzinit and C.F. on this one. 

Personally, I think this Shabbos Goy business is just a way for some people to show off, and indirectly say "Ooh look how much more religious I am than everyone else!"

[Ulli]

I agree with Lisa. This light issue is really no good reason for it.

I am not fearful but I like it if the light burns during the night in the stairway, the entrance room and in the kitchen. I have bought for this special light bulbs.

This is totally enough to find the way in the house. And if you go in one room you can let the door open, so you see in it too.

For the sleeping room I have a small night light, that is only dimly lit, but always on too.

[DownwithIslam]

Their is no need to have a shabbos goy to begin with. If someone has a medical emergency, a jew can take care of it during shabbos. This whole idea of a shabbos goy was concocted by chasidim in Boro Park and Williamsburg. They did it to enjoy yet another of the pleasures of living in America. As far as the using the muzzy as a shabbos goy, it's better to go with no light on shabbos than to bring a large arab turd into a home.

[Gruzinit]

Personally, I think this Shabbos Goy business is just a way for some people to show off, and indirectly say "Ooh look how much more religious I am than everyone else!"

Thank you Lisa. I couldn't have made a better point.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I do not know of many situations where a goy was used on shabb-t, BUT I have seen one, and I see NO problem with it, no matter if it is an idolater, muslim or whoever else. For example the lights are turned off in shul (the only situation I have seen this happen) So the congregation needs a goy to turn on the lights for the services, soo one of the guys goes to the street, picks someone up and hints (or asks) that the light be turned on. What is the problem in this? Now if this would be in Israel, what would geniuses like C.F. say- no the congregation should not pray, just soo that a muslim doesn't turn on the lights for Jews? Or even worse, what would someone suggest that a Jew violate Shabb-t (G-d forbid), and not ask any goy to turn on the lights? (and it doesn't matter is it is a Noahide, an idolater or a Muslim). If they happen to be there, and are needed their is NO problem in using them for the moment, and its not like by doing soo anyone is promoting them being in Israel, so yess at the moment have them turn on the lights for the congregation, and then when the time is right and can be done kick them out of the Land.
 This whole thread is rediculous, (just another one  ) BUT in the case of life and death yes a Jew can violate Shabb-t , ONLY if it is life and death risk.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I have to agree with Gruzinit, Lisa, Pheasant, DownwithIslam, etc.

This is unconscionable. While I doubt that most Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem support this practice in any way, those Jews who do use Muslim Nazis to take care of their wives and children on the Sabbath (or to do any household chores at all) are diseased and sick people who deserve to be insulted.

Anyway my point in this story was to show how sick and insane some people are, and not in the least to imply that most Jews do that. My apologies if it came off that way--that was certainly not at all my intent.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What is the problem in this? Now if this would be in Israel, what would geniuses like C.F. say- no the congregation should not pray, just soo that a muslim doesn't turn on the lights for Jews? Or even worse, what would someone suggest that a Jew violate Shabbat (G-d forbid), and not ask any goy to turn on the lights? (and it doesn't matter is it is a Noahide, an idolater or a Muslim).

Your beliefs need no comment, but please answer a question you have avoided for weeks--what happened to your wings, dude?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabb-t, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabb-t, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow     

[muman613]

Shalom,

There has been occasions where a Shabbos Goy has been very helpful for me in order not to violate Shabbat. For instance about a month ago on Shabbat my plumbing in the house backed up. Since I have a room-mate who is my Shabbat goy, I didnt even have to ask him to fix the plumbing. There are several other times he has been able to turn on/off lights when needed.

My purpose here was just to say that the use of Shabbat Goyim is not WRONG. I am only sticking up for two principles here. The first is to avoid Lashon Hara against possibly righteous people who have done aveirahs/chets and bring the aveirah into our court. The second is to say that I see nothing wrong with having a helper to assist in keeping the many laws of Shabbat.

Also DownWithIslam, the Shabbat Goy was NOT invented in Boro Park. The job of the Shabbas Goy goes way back as they were responsible for lighting the stoves of Jews throughout history. I have found several links which explain just what a Shabbat goy is.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=518&letter=S


The Gentile employed in a Jewish household on the Sabbath-day to perform services which are religiously forbidden to Jews on that day. The Shabbat goy's duty is to extinguish the lighted candles or lamps on Friday night, and make a fire in the oven or stove on Sabbath mornings during the cold weather. A poor woman ("Shabbat goyah") often discharges these offices. The hire in olden times was a piece of ḥallah; in modern times, about 10 cents.

According to strict Jewish law, a Jew is not allowed to employ a non-Jew to do work on the Sabbath which is forbidden to a Jew. The rule of the Rabbis is "amirah le-goy shebut" (i.e., "to bid a Gentile to perform work on the Sabbath is still a breach of the Sabbath law," though not so flagrant as performing the work oneself); but under certain circumstances the Rabbis allowed the employment of non-Jews, especially to heat the oven on winter days in northern countries.

Legendary literature contains many instances in which the Shabbat goy was replaced by a Golem. The latest story in which the Shabbat goy plays a rôle is that of K. L. Silman Franco, in Hebrew, in "Aḥiasaf," 5665 (1904-5). Maxim Gorki, the Russian novelist, was once employed as a Shabbat goy by the Jewish colonists in the governments of Kherson and Yekaterinoslav.

I want to add that it is wrong via a torah mitzvah to ASK verbally a Shabbat Goy to do anything. Because he/she doesnt have the obligation to observe, there is no aveirah on either persons part. I do not ask my roommate do do anything on Shabbat, he is free to come and go as he wishes. But he knows if there is something wrong and just does what is best in the situation.

I have seen this done by my Orthodox role models too. While attending Shabbatons with my Rabbi there are times when lights need to be adjusted and a local non-Jew is responsible for taking care of it.

Once more I will say it is wrong to employ anyone who may have a propensity to kill you. But there are things which we are doing wrong too and all aveirah needs to be rectified.

muman613

More links:

Talmudic Responsa on Shabbos Goy : http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/shabbasgoy.html
How-To be a Shabbat Goy : http://www.ehow.com/how_2172569_be-shabbos-goy.html

PS: We cannot force non-Jew to observe Shabbat as there is a Talmud tractate which expressly forbids a non-Jew from observing the Shabbat. I have asked my room-mate to refrain from certain work in order to avoid the appearance that I am violating.

[Shamgar]

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d. (+)

But it depends. Because Allah is imo the ancien Moon idol al-illah. But there are different oppinions with good argumentations.


2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) (-)

Obviously not


3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. (-)

They are stealing like the ravens and it is allowed to them by Islam (if the victim of their crime is a non-muslim)


4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery. (-)

Muslims are often involved in prostitution business. Even in Israel. Rabbi Kahane speaks about this. And they are committing the vast majority of rapes in Europe. I have heard about cases in Israel too.


5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name. (-)

If you justify the offence of other laws from the bible with G-d's will, like raping, stealing and murdering. imo this is a violation of this rule.


6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)

(+) Althrough if you assault sexually animals it is a violation.


7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly. (-)

Obviously not

Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.

muman613

Muman, does your statement imply that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion?

[q_q_]

Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow     

It's one thing insulting CF, it's another insulting all christians.

Regarding CF.  I wouldn't take very seriously a comment (maybe said by CF) that only a traitor would allow a muslim to be a shabbos goy. A shabbos goy's purpose is so that a jew doesn't break shabbat.

As far as driving his pregnant wife to hospital. An action that -is- allowed on shabbat.   I think if one can drive well and has a good sense of direction, and can get there fine, then he should do it himself.
I wouldn't call it traitorous to allow a muslim to do it, if the muslim has a record of being trustworthy in this.
I still don't like it though. . It's a muslim that doesn't live with these jews, he is just doing a job, he isn't close to them .  Maybe one day he isn't paid so much or is angry.. it's not a good situation. But i'm sure they pay him quite well and he seems content. I don't like that situation.  One doesn't need a muslim or even any shabbos goy for that. You can break shabbat when a life is in danger.

It's silly to call them traitors..  
But I wouldn't take it too seriously.

It's not like people here are lapping up / poring over anti charedi press.  Most of it is anti religious, and people here are generally religious and pro religious

[muman613]

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d. (+)

But it depends. Because Allah is imo the ancien Moon idol al-illah. But there are different oppinions with good argumentations.


2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) (-)

Obviously not


3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. (-)

They are stealing like the ravens and it is allowed to them by Islam (if the victim of their crime is a non-muslim)


4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery. (-)

Muslims are often involved in prostitution business. Even in Israel. Rabbi Kahane speaks about this. And they are committing the vast majority of rapes in Europe. I have heard about cases in Israel too.


5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name. (-)

If you justify the offence of other laws from the bible with G-d's will, like raping, stealing and murdering. imo this is a violation of this rule.


6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)

(+) Althrough if you assault sexually animals it is a violation.


7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly. (-)

Obviously not

Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.

muman613

Muman, does your statement imply that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion?

I am not one to make a comment on this topic. In most cases I believe it is. In all truth, my Shabbos Goy is a lapsed Irish Catholic. As others here have stated all that is essential is that he/she not be of the Jewish faith. I have a great love for people of all faiths and will try not to say things to hurt others.

The issue can be answered by researching what the leading Poskims { Decider of religious issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poskim } of the Jewish people think about this issue. I am not a Poskim but I try to understand what they are saying.

I am sorry if there was an implication in what I said. It is of primary importance to a Jew who holds the unity of Hashem as the cornerstone of his faith to avoid any and all forms of imagery lest it appear he has violated the 2nd commandment.

I hope that explains my position satisfactorily.

muman613

[q_q_]

Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.

muman613

Muman, does your statement imply that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion?

There is a rabbinical opinion, of RAMBAM, that christianity is idolatry , and another  from Rashi, that it is not idolatry. They are both very big rabbis.  From hundreds of years ago - almost a thousand years ago actually. But still extremely highly regarded today , and "authoritative" in the sense of trusting their judgement.

note- Most would say you cannot teach torah to gentiles.. this is relevant to the next thing..
Interestingly, Lisa posted a quote from the RAMBAM, written later I think, a letter he wrote, about teaching torah to christians being ok, but not to muslims.   I think anybody would say it's forbidden to teach it to idolators. So that does suggest that the RAMBAM thought that christianity isn't idolatry..  One site suggested that maybe the RAMBAM changed his opinion on the issue - to saying it isn't.