Author Topic: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar  (Read 1610 times)

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Offline Masha

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Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« on: August 25, 2008, 02:36:21 PM »
I think this is an issue of principle to the well-being of future righteous states in Israel, U.S., and Europe, and this is why I want to bring it up. Zelhar asked Chaim whether it would be better to curb capitalism in some areas, such as the pharmaceutical industry and have government subsidize our research of new drugs. Chaim disagreed.

I partly agree with Chaim and partly disagree. I agree that our knowledge of the human nature shows us that economic competition and a chance to enrich oneself should always exist, otherwise people would never be stimulated to take risks and open new companies. Who would ever dream up of opening a mundane business such as the production of toilet seats or office supplies if there weren't any economic rewards. So I agree, we do need capitalism and competition in order to ensure that our societies work. However, this is not how things work for people in the creative fileds, such as science. Scientists are motivated not by money, but by curiosity - the strongest human instinct after sex and life preservation. If you don't pay scientists anything, they will find ways to do their research for free (I am talking about a person with a calling, not a run-of-the-mill scientist). The second motivator for scientists is status. But this is not the kind of status afforded by money. It is a prestige among his colleagues or peers. Ask a scientist whether he would prefer to become a billioner or a number one authority in his field in the world, and 99% of scientists will choose the second. Guaranteed. Money is simply not a good motivator for creative people. Venture capital works well to get a new company off the ground that exploits a new discovery. But it doesn't help you to make a new discovery in the first place. The state of basic research in the U.S. and Europe is today in the abysmal state (and this is something I know about!) precisely because university research has been commodified and money comes from private sources earmarked for specific projects. But there is only so far you can coast on the basic reasearch that has not been carried out on the large scale for many years. ERventually, you will run out of steam because your paradigm is too old. One simply cannot rely on private money to make scientific breakthroughs, because private money is oriented towards immediate results and doesn't tolerate wastage, but some amount of wastage is necessary simply to play around and explore various venues and thought experiment. I simply cannot see how high level of research can be sustained without a significant injection of government money (and this is the proper destination for our taxes - taxes should bolster the viability and strength of a society as a whole). Another possible source of reasearch money is donor money. Here one could play on human vanity. Once people become rich and have done their share of eating caviar off golden plates, they start dreaming of fame and immortality. This is why rich people support the arts, for example. They should be encourage to give generous sums to basic research. As a reward, a rich person could become known as the person who discovered Einstein. Even though the money in this case is private, this is not a capitalist lever, because it's not oriented with a view toward immediate profit.

Specifically earmarked private money (such as to find a cure for cancer) to fund research is not a good idea. You might spend oodles of it and find out in the end that you cannot cure cancer because you are laboring under an old paradigm and taking baby steps, while the possibility to overturn the old paradigm and take a giant leap forward is not being pursued.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 03:57:11 PM »
I think I mixed in my question two different issues: 1. Scientific medical research, 2. Making medical treatment affordable to everyone.

On the research issue I think the government should be heavily involved, investing government budget on science gives a very high return on the money. Lots of the great inventions came from government research labs, mostly from the military.

And you are very right that scientists are not motivated by greed. Even in the private sector the executives are taking the greatest share of the profits even though the scientists and engineers are doing the most creative, and most crucial work.

On the second issue I believe that society should take care of the weak and especially the sick people. I can't stand the thought of a poor sick person condemned to death because he can't afford the excessively costly treatment.

Offline Masha

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 04:36:28 PM »
I think I mixed in my question two different issues: 1. Scientific medical research, 2. Making medical treatment affordable to everyone.

On the research issue I think the government should be heavily involved, investing government budget on science gives a very high return on the money. Lots of the great inventions came from government research labs, mostly from the military.

And you are very right that scientists are not motivated by greed. Even in the private sector the executives are taking the greatest share of the profits even though the scientists and engineers are doing the most creative, and most crucial work.

On the second issue I believe that society should take care of the weak and especially the sick people. I can't stand the thought of a poor sick person condemned to death because he can't afford the excessively costly treatment.

Regarding scientists and what motivates them. I am thinking back to the late days of the old Soviet Union. Nothing worked. Everything that had to do with economy and industry was in shambles. But science did really well. The scientific achivements - be that in space or defence industry - were at a high level. Maybe not as high as the U.S., but probably in the second place. the Soviet Union was the first country to send a satellite into space. That's because all scientists need is for someone to give them money to do their research, not to get rich. The usual laws of economics don't apply to them in the regular way.

I do agree with you about medical care. There should be equality in two things, I believe. Medical care and education. The rest should depend on merit.

Offline Manch

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 05:06:55 PM »
I think I mixed in my question two different issues: 1. Scientific medical research, 2. Making medical treatment affordable to everyone.

On the research issue I think the government should be heavily involved, investing government budget on science gives a very high return on the money. Lots of the great inventions came from government research labs, mostly from the military.

And you are very right that scientists are not motivated by greed. Even in the private sector the executives are taking the greatest share of the profits even though the scientists and engineers are doing the most creative, and most crucial work.

On the second issue I believe that society should take care of the weak and especially the sick people. I can't stand the thought of a poor sick person condemned to death because he can't afford the excessively costly treatment.

Regarding scientists and what motivates them. I am thinking back to the late days of the old Soviet Union. Nothing worked. Everything that had to do with economy and industry was in shambles. But science did really well. The scientific achivements - be that in space or defence industry - were at a high level. Maybe not as high as the U.S., but probably in the second place. the Soviet Union was the first country to send a satellite into space. That's because all scientists need is for someone to give them money to do their research, not to get rich. The usual laws of economics don't apply to them in the regular way.

I do agree with you about medical care. There should be equality in two things, I believe. Medical care and education. The rest should depend on merit.

Yet the scientific elite of the former USSR lived rarefied priviliged lives of the very few.
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Offline Masha

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2008, 02:50:02 AM »
Yet the scientific elite of the former USSR lived rarefied privileged lives of the very few.

Only the very top-top elite. My father was a very talented man that I would count among the scientific elite judged by his achievements and publications. But we were very poor. He got a regular salary.

But it is true that there were several scientific satellite towns, such as Dubna, that enjoyed a very high standard of living by Soviet standards. People live in Western-style houses, as opposed to small apartments, and could buy very good food, including delicacies, cheaply, while everywhere else there was a shortage of food, very poor quality and selection, and people had to stand in line every day just to buy basic items. But there science cities were very well supplied. However, Manch, this is not why people worked there - it was just an extra perk. My father is an example that it's not about money. I'll just repeat myself: scientists become scientists because 1) these are people naturally born with hyperactive curiosity (you know, how there are people with hyperactive sexuality, for example) and they must find an outlet for it, otherwise they'll explode; 2) because there are periods when science is prestigious in a particular society, which doesn't mean that scientists earn a lot of money, but rather they are treated by everyone as the most respected and valuable members of the society; people tip their hats when they see a scientist, as opposed to Bill Gates, for example. Today science is not prestigious, and this is why it's going to the pits. Science will never be prestigious in a truly democratic society because of human nature - human tendency to envy and resentment. An average can swallow that the highest honors will be given to people like Bill Gates because he can hope to become like Bill Gates himself one day, if only he gets one good business idea. But an average person can never hope to become a great scientist or artist because, to develop into one, you need not only to work very hard for very many years but you also need to be born with a special and rare talent. This is why those who are plebeians at heart will never stand for an elitist system. This is why a democracy never works in the long term - the standards in school education, science, art eventually collapse. (Yesterday I helped my son, who is in the 9th grade, with math. The problems they were solving were the ones I was doing in the fourth grade - elementary algebra. Talking about school education! No wonder the Chinese are taking over  >:( :'().

All in all (to return to the original comment), I think it is important not to fall in, what I call, a free market fallacy. Free market is absolutely indispensable to a well functioning economic system. It is what allows it to stay flexible and gives an outlet to natural human competitiveness and desire to stay at the top. But it needs to be supplemented with other mechanisms, because free market is a strictly short term solution. It will not solve a problem of an alternative fuel while the oil is still flowing. Somebody with a vision and ability for long-term thinking and planning must make an executive decision to allocate money to a long-term research. The same is true for basic research. My support for free market stems from my knowledge of the human nature. But my support for alternative, non free-market, mechanisms to stimulate the robust development of basic science (and art and philosophy, I might add), also comes from my understanding of human nature. There are different categories of people and they need to be stimulated differently.

Offline muman613

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2008, 03:01:39 AM »
What is science? Some scientists believe some very flimsy theories. I dont want to elaborate on some of the theories which have not been proven. I dont believe in the Global Warming theory. Yet a good number of politically correct scientists believe it like gospel. And even the theory of evolution is not fully proven by facts. A leap of faith is required to believe some of their conclusions. I believe scientists are not always motivated by the best interests of society. Money corrupts, and a lot of money corrupts a lot.

It would be nice if we could find the cure for cancer {my step dad and uncle are suffering with it}. It would be nice to find a cure for heart disease {which my father is suffering with}. It would be nice to find a cure for vasculitis {which I am suffering with}. Science has not really answered the questions which would prevent so much suffering.

This is why my faith is in Hashem alone. I truely cannot have faith in science.

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Offline Masha

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2008, 03:19:08 AM »
What is science? Some scientists believe some very flimsy theories. I dont want to elaborate on some of the theories which have not been proven. I dont believe in the Global Warming theory. Yet a good number of politically correct scientists believe it like gospel. And even the theory of evolution is not fully proven by facts. A leap of faith is required to believe some of their conclusions. I believe scientists are not always motivated by the best interests of society. Money corrupts, and a lot of money corrupts a lot.

It would be nice if we could find the cure for cancer {my step dad and uncle are suffering with it}. It would be nice to find a cure for heart disease {which my father is suffering with}. It would be nice to find a cure for vasculitis {which I am suffering with}. Science has not really answered the questions which would prevent so much suffering.

This is why my faith is in Hashem alone. I truely cannot have faith in science.

muman613


Science cannot find cure for cancer because it needs a new paradigm that embraces systemic thinking and non-local phenomena. The ruling scientific paradigm we have now is very old and mechanistic. It is based on a reductive picture of the universe. Clearly, this is not how the human body works.

We should not abandon science, however, because we need powerful weapons that science can design us. Otherwise, we have lost the war with the muslim world. Several years ago the Iranian team of students got the first place in the so-called "Science Olympics." Iran is really investing in science education and research today. This is something that we should be doing. And remember, Iranians are not Arabs. Unlike the latter, they are intelligent. They should be conquered as soon as possible and forcibly converted back to Zoroastrianism (or Noahadism, or Christianity).

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 12:52:55 PM »
I agree in the sense that there is an extra incentive for cures when one makes a prophet.  That might also include marketing drugs in TV commercials. 

However...while that might be in the right, MEDICAL ETHICS is very very very important.  And I feel that many big corporations and drug companies like these ethics. It's not just about money, you know.
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Offline Shamgar

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Re: Partly disagree with Chaim's answer to Zelhar
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 01:22:11 PM »
Free enterprise is best serving when left free.
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