Evangelicals and mesianic we must convert Jews

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

                                                                                                                    בס''ד

Tzvi, I respect your views but you are giving the Charedi opinion on matters like reincarnation.

The vast majority of Torah-observant Jews in the world are not Charedim. And the vast majority of rabbis are not Charedim. Most Torah-observant Jews and most rabbis come from the religious nationalist camp. So the views you are espousing represent the minority opinion.

In Eretz Yisrael for example, there are an estimated 1.5 million Torah-observant Jews. About two thirds of these Jews are from the religious nationalist camp of HaRav Tzvi Yehudah Kook ztv"l/Bnei Akiva/hakipot hasrugot etc. Only about one third of these Torah-observant Jews are Charedim.

The leading religious nationalist rabbis like HaRav Dov Lior shlita and HaRav Zalman Melamed shlita do not believe in reincarnation.

The vast majority of Chazal (the rabbinic sages of the Talmud) also did not believe in reincarnation. Very few of them even mentioned it when they spoke about death, the day of judgment, the next world, hell, reward and punishment. They never mentioned reincarnation because they did not consider it to be serious enough for discussion.

Even the distinct minority of Chazal who did believe in gilgul neshamot (reincarnation of the souls) certainly did not think that people become rocks or dogs. For example, HaRamban originally rejected the concept of reincarnation but later said that he believed it could exist for babies who die, little children who die, retarded people - in other words, those who never really had a chance to live in this world so that they could face the day of judgment to enable them to merit a place in the world to come.

The Rambam says that we do not really know what happens when we die except that we know with perfect faith that there is perfect justice with mercy on the day of judgment, that there is resurrection of the dead, that there is reward and punishment, that there is eternal life in the next world, that there is a hell, and that there is eternal punishment for the truly evil. (There are lesser periods of punishment for those whose lives are very sinful but who are not truly evil.)

I urge people who want to know more to read the Rambam's brilliant "Guide to the Perplexed". Or to study "Pirkei Avot" with the rabbinic commentary.

[Rubystars]

With all due respect I never liked the idea of reincarnation because it de-emphasizes the need to be good right now. If there's only one life then you have to do it right the first time.

[Shamgar]

I'm with you Rubystars but look at Americanhero. He came back as a nut.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

With all due respect I never liked the idea of reincarnation because it de-emphasizes the need to be good right now. If there's only one life then you have to do it right the first time.

 That is not true at all. If one knows even a little about it, and the different things that Talmidi Hachamim say, then they would understand completly differently- that it is a failure. Its like who wants to be left back in school a couple of times?

 Also Chaim, I disagree- both on the view, and what that you said that most leading Rabbis today dont believe in Reincarnations. Almost every Rabbi today accepts the Holy Zohar and the writings of the AriZL, which speaks about subjects like these. Most Nationalistic Rabbis also get their tradition from the Vilna Gaon ZTL, who himself writes about it, (not only as a belief but as Torah, and how, etc.

 "The leading religious nationalist rabbis like HaRav Dov Lior shlita and HaRav Zalman Melamed shlita do not believe in reincarnation."

 I would have to see them writing or speaking about it. If their is such writing, then okay, but if they never wrote for, or agains't it, then it doesn't prove either if they are for or agains't it.
 Also same with Rav Kook ZTL. He might not write about it, but he also might not have written about Shabb-t, or about Kashrut (but it doesn't mean he didn't believe it to be true).


  "I urge people who want to know more to read the Rambam's brilliant "Guide to the Perplexed". Or to study "Pirkei Avot" with the rabbinic commentary. "

 Pirki Avot is great. The other book, is controversial. The leading Rabbis of the time were agains't it. But to the defense of Rambam, it was explained that it is really what the title says a "guide to the Perplexed"  Which means those people who are allready influenced negativly by philosophy, it might be a medicine, but if one is healthy, medicine is bad for them.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Also Chaim even the non-Jews today (the Parasychologists) prove it through regressions. For example a person who is 20, they go back in their "memory" (which is the soul), for example now he's 20, they say go back 10 years, then the person says and acts how they were at that age, then they go back furthur, and furthur, and before his birth, and the person says (or does, or experiences) what they were before that- how can one do it if they were just created for example 20 years ago, and they regress 40 years back?

 Also I only heard the rejection of this only by 2 serious people (by serious I mean worthy of listining to, and someone who keeps Shabb-t, not just some random bum). Chaim and this person who is technically a Rabbi (I think has Smicha, and learns, but does not do it for work- does something else). And even him, its very controversal, becuase first I hear rejecting Lubavitch- I say okay, fine it might be acceptable, then I hear rejection of these type of things, then rejection of Kabbalah and Zohar, even that I say okay maybe can still argue, but then on subjects like the Arab issue and even killing Amalik, it was clear to me that this person is not a serious person to listin to, becuase after convincing him that it is a mitzva sometimes to fight the enemies of Israel, then he brings morality, and starts defining what is right and wrong (based on feelings and not Law), and saying things that it might be a mitzva, maybe, but he wont do it (again based on feelings).  So besides him, I dont know Rabbi's (or people who call themselves as such) who speak agains't it.

[Rubystars]

I'm with you Rubystars but look at Americanhero. He came back as a nut.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Chaim, please explain to me how Judaism teaches that a Jew achieves salvation, and also how Gentiles are "saved" (or whatever the equivalent word in Judaism is) as well.

[muman613]

Chaim, please explain to me how Judaism teaches that a Jew achieves salvation, and also how Gentiles are "saved" (or whatever the equivalent word in Judaism is) as well.

CF,

As we said earlier, and I am sure Chaim will agree, Judaism has no concept of 'Salvation'. Either a Jew is righteous and lives by the word of Hashem, or he goes off the path and does aveirah {sin}. Every Jew is capable of making Teshuva {Repentence} and rectifying his sins.

The upcoming High Holidays are the Holidays of Teshuva. We are judged during this period and if we do honest and sincere Teshuva we are 'written into the book of life' and granted a good new year. If we are still guilty of our sins, and our teshuva is not true, then we are written for a bad year.

muman613

[muman613]

C.F.,

There some GREAT articles on the front page of Aish.com which explains the concept of Teshuva and its relationship to this time of year and the Holidays of Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/Pardon.asp
http://www.aish.com/holidays/the_high_holidays/default.asp

http://www.aish.com/hhElul/hhElulDefault/a_quick_overview_of_the_high_holidays.asp

The most important time of the Jewish year is often the most misunderstood. Here's all the basics you need to know.

The High Holiday period actually begins in Elul, the Hebrew month preceding Rosh Hashana. Elul is an important period of introspection, of clarifying life's goals, and of coming closer to G-d. Because when the big day of Rosh Hashana comes, and each individual stands before the Almighty to ask for another year, we'll want to know what we're asking for!

During Elul, many people perform a daily cheshbon - a spiritual accounting -- where we step back and look at ourselves critically and honestly, with the intention of improving.

In order to arouse us to this task, it is the Ashkenazi custom to blow the shofar every morning after prayers during the month of Elul.

Historically, this month has great significance, because it was on the first day of Elul that Moses -- following the sin of the Golden Calf -- ascended Mount Sinai to receive a new, second set of stone tablets. Forty days later -- on the seminal Yom Kippur -- Moses returned to the people with tablets in hand, signaling a repair of the breech between the Jewish people and G-d.

High Holiday preparations intensify on the Saturday night before Rosh Hashana, when we recite "Slichot," a special series of prayers that includes the powerful "13 Attributes of Mercy."

ROSH HASHANA

Rosh Hashana is the Jewish New Year, commemorating the creation of Adam and Eve, the first human beings. On Rosh Hashana, the Books of Life and Death are open on the heavenly desk. On this "Day of Judgment," we each stand before G-d and offer our best case for being "created anew" -- i.e. granted another year of life.

The morning before Rosh Hashana, we perform "Hatarat Nedarim" -- annulling all vows. This enables us to enter the new year with a clean slate.

The essential mitzvah of Rosh Hashana is to hear the sounding of the shofar.The shofar blasts represent three distinct themes of the day:

   1. It is the sound of the King's coronation
   2. It is the sobbing cry of a Jewish heart
   3. It is an alarm clock, arousing us from our spiritual slumber

Click here to listen to the shofar sounds

The shofar is also mindful of the biblical story of Abraham binding his son Isaac, when a ram was caught in the thicket and sacrificed in Isaac's stead. We blow a ram's horn to recall the great act of faith in G-d performed by Abraham and Isaac; tradition records that this event occurred on the day of Rosh Hashana.

The shofar is not blown when Rosh Hashana falls on Shabbat.

A central part of Rosh Hashana is the festive meal. During the High Holidays, a round challah is used -- symbolizing fullness and completion. We dip the bread into honey, and also an apple into honey, symbolizing our prayer for a sweet new year. On Rosh Hashana, we also eat a series of foods that symbolize good things we hope for in the coming year.

It is customary to greet others with the words: "L'shana Tova -- Ketivah vi-chatima Tova." This means: "For a good year -- You should be written and sealed in the good (Book of Life)."

The "Tashlich" prayer is said on the first afternoon of Rosh Hashana by a pool of water that preferably has fish in it. These prayers are symbolic of the casting away of our mistakes. When the first day of Rosh Hashana falls on Shabbat, it is said on the afternoon of the second day.

While the decision for "another year of life" is handed down on Rosh Hashana, the verdict is not "sealed" unto Yom Kippur. Therefore, the 10 days from Rosh Hashana to Yom Kippur are a crucial period when most peoples' judgment "hangs in the balance." During these "Ten Days of Repentance," we engage in intense introspection, and are particularly careful with our speech, actions, and mitzvah observance.

YOM KIPPUR

Following the Golden Calf, Moses pleaded with G-d to forgive the Jewish people. Finally, on Yom Kippur, atonement was achieved and Moses brought the second set of Tablets down from Mount Sinai. From that day forward, every Yom Kippur has carried with it a special power to cleanse the mistakes of Jews (both individually and collectively) and to wipe the slate clean.

Yom Kippur is thus the holiest day of the Jewish year. In order to help us achieve a high spiritual level, there are five areas of physical involvement which we remove ourselves from on Yom Kippur:

   1. eating and drinking
   2. washing
   3. applying oils or lotions to the skin
   4. marital relations
   5. wearing leather shoes

The Yom Kippur fast begins at sundown, and extends 25 hours until the following nightfall.

Though Yom Kippur atones for transgressions against G-d, this does not include wrongs committed against our fellow human beings. It is therefore the universal Jewish custom -- sometime before Yom Kippur -- to apologize and seek forgiveness from any friends, relative, or acquaintances whom we may have harmed or insulted over the past year.

The High Holidays are followed five days later by Sukkot, a holiday of immense joy, where we express our complete trust in G-d, and celebrate our confidence in having received a "good judgment" for the coming year.

I hope this quick explanation satisfies your inquiry...

muman613

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I can understand the "either a Jew is obeying Torah or he isn't" argument, but what are the eternal ramifications of that? Do obedient Jews all go to heaven if they die and do nonobservant or disobedient Jews go to Gehenom?

[Rubystars]

I've always heard that the Jewish view is that this life is the important one and all the focus is put on doing right here... since nobody really knows what will happen afterward exactly. I believe we've had at least one religious Jewish member here who doesn't believe in an afterlife at all. I'd like to know more about this concept if muman or someone else would like to help us learn about it.

[muman613]

I've always heard that the Jewish view is that this life is the important one and all the focus is put on doing right here... since nobody really knows what will happen afterward exactly. I believe we've had at least one religious Jewish member here who doesn't believe in an afterlife at all. I'd like to know more about this concept if muman or someone else would like to help us learn about it.

Hello Rubystars,

I am generally in agreement with Tzvi on most of this topic. I have listened to several Rabbis, from several different streams of Judaism, including Chabad Rabbis, Orthodox, and other Chassidic Rabbis {including Breslov & Satmar}.

There is a concept called Gilgul { http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgul } which means reincarnation. I will quote from this Wiki article, but I will also provide other sources since many people don't trust Wikipedia.

Gilgul, Gilgul neshamot or Gilgulei Ha Neshamot (Heb. גלגול הנשמות) refers to the concept of reincarnation, emanating from the Kabbalistic framework within Judaism. In Hebrew, the word gilgul means "cycle" and neshamot is the plural for "souls." Souls are seen to "cycle" through "lives" or "incarnations", being attached to different human bodies over time. Which body they associate with depends on their particular task in the physical world, spiritual levels of the bodies of predecessors and so on.

Gilgul

In Kabbalah the most basic component of the soul is called the nefesh and is always part of the gilgul process, as it must leave at the cessation of blood production (a stage of death). It moves to another body, where life has begun. There are four other soul components and different nations of the world possess different forms of souls with different purposes.

The essential Kabbalistic text in regards to gilgul is called Sha'ar Ha'Gilgulim[1] (The Gate of Reincarnations)[1], based on the work of Rabbi Isaac Luria (and compiled by his disciple, Rabbi Chaim Vital). It describes the deep, complex laws of reincarnation. One concept that arises from Sha'ar Ha'gilgulim is the idea that gilgul is paralleled physically by pregnancy.

Now Aish.com, a site which I support and recommend to many Jews and Gentiles alike, answers a question about the concept of Gilgul of the Aish Rabbi. This is his reply:

http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse.asp?s=reincarnation&f=tqak&offset=1

There are many Jewish sources dealing with what is popularly called "reincarnation." In Hebrew, it is called "gilgul ha'ne'shamot," literally the recycling or transmigration of souls.

This concept can be compared to a flame of one candle lighting another candle. While the essence of the second flame comes from the first one, the second flame is an independent entity.

Still, the new flame contains imperfections inherited from the initial flame, and it is these imperfections that are to be corrected.

Most of the written material is very esoteric, often written in Aramaic. Some of the prominent works dealing with this subject are the "Zohar" (1st century) and the Arizal's "Shaar HaGilgulim" (16th century). In the Bible itself, the idea is intimated in Deut. 25:5-10.

Many sources say that a soul has a maximum of three chances in this world. One example given is that the great Talmudic sage Hillel was a reincarnation of the Biblical figure Aaron.

The soul only comes into this world in the first place in order to make a spiritual repair. If that is not fulfilled by the end of one's lifetime, then the soul will be sent down once again. The return trip may only be needed for a short time or in a limited way. This in part explains why people are born with handicaps or may live a brief life.

It is not necessary that there be a conscious awareness in order for the correction to take place. Conscious awareness is only one level of understanding.

This idea is explored in an interesting book called "Psychic Phenomena," by Dorothy Bemar Bradley, M.D., and Robert A. Bradley M.D.:

"Mentally retarded children have been known to burst out with unexpected abilities under altered awareness, manifesting the contents of the undamaged and theoretically undamageable unconscious mind."

In other words, there are levels of understanding that transcend the conscious level, even in children.

Re: your second question. Why does this have to involve the body in the first place?

Truly, some "corrections" do not have to take place through the body, but rather take place in the soul world, in the afterlife.

However, sometimes the correction must occur in the physical world. For example, it may involve a certain challenge of choosing the "right thing" over choosing the "comfortable thing." Or other people may have to be involved. And the soul cannot interact with the physical world in any other way expect through a body.

The bottom line in all this is that a person's life situation provides everything necessary to achieve ideal growth. Our task is simply to employ our free will -- i.e. to properly and effectively use the opportunities that we have.

All the best to you in this and future lives.

Now Chabad provides several good insights into the concept of Gilgul. Doing a search for reincanation turns up 14 results @ http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/scope/6198/kid/6569 .

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/474456/jewish/Where-is-reincarnation-found-in-Gds-word.htm

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/456599/jewish/Reincarnation-A-Jewish-Belief.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/289430/jewish/The-Wheel-of-Life.htm

Though, as Chiam points out, the concept of Gilgul is not universally accepted amongst the Chachamim {Scholars} . From an ask the rabbi @ http://www.yeshiva.org.il the following was answered:

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=2385

Question:
I understand that it’s a very big and difficult topic however I was wondering whether or not all Mefarshim and Rabbanim hold of the opinion that people can come back as other people in another life or as animals. I even heard that big Reshaim can come back as things such as a rock. I was under the impression that a soul isn’t sent back rather elements of the soul are present in a completely new Neshama. What truth is there in this and are there any sources from the Torah to support such beliefs?


Answer:
As you said it is a big topic or more than that - an esoteric one.
I have not enough knowledge to share with you and I have read the same things you mentioned in different books.
It is also true that the Gilgul concept is not fully agreed among all authentic Jewish authorities, though the Ar"i z"l has a whole chapter on the topic, and on these issues it is almost impossible to dispute the Ar"i, as who can say he is as great as the Ar"i was?

Since I am inclined to believe in this concept I will conclude with another pro-Gilgul source. From the esteemed website http://www.torah.org , which I use regularly to brush up on the upcoming Parasha drash, I find the following:

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5767/matos.html

Parshios Matos & Masei
Just Passing Through

FRIDAY NIGHT:

"These are the journeys of the Children of Israel, who left Egypt as a na­tion under the leadership of Moshe and Aharon. (Bamidbar 33:1)

This week’s parshah about “journeys” happens to coincide with the publishing of my next book, Just Passing Through: The Impact of Reincarnation on Everyday Life, which can be ordered through my site, www.thirtysix.org. It is the third in a series of books, after The Physics of Kabbalah: Accessing The Energy of Creation, and Be Positive: Is Not Just a Blood-Type, It Is The Way of Life.

After spending a fair bit of time learning the Arizal’s work on gilgulim, (reincarnations), “Sha’ar HaGilgulim”, one thing I came to appreciate more than anything else is how each individual soul is on its on personal journey. Aside from the remarkable information it provides about life in this world, it was fascinating to see how certain key figures kept returning as part of a process of personal rectification.

One example is Aharon HaKohen. We all know that at Mt. Sinai, while Moshe Rabbeinu was on top of the mountain receiving Torah, Aharon HaKohen, as a stall tactic to keep the Erev Rav at bay, was forced into being involved with the building of the golden calf. According to the Midrash, he had seen how they had killed Chur, his nephew, and in order to avoid being killed as well, he faked compliance.

The Talmud explains why. It was not that he had been a coward in any way. Rather, because he was the Kohen Gadol, and Mt. Sinai had the status of the Temple, the killing of the Kohen Gadol in the Temple is a sin that can only be atoned for through death. To save the generation, he saved his own life, even though he knew that his involvement could still be held against him, and indeed it was: he lost two sons because of it, and would have lost all four had Moshe Rabbeinu not prayed on his behalf. However, says the Arizal:

Nachor (the brother of Avraham) reincarnated into Chur, the son of Miriam, while Haran reincarnated into Aharon HaKohen. Chur (Chet-Vav-Raish) took the three letters of Nachor (Nun-Chet-Vav-Raish), while the “Nun” from Nachor remained for the root of Achav king of Israel, as we will explain. However, Aharon (Aleph-Heh-Raish-Nun) has the three letters of Haran (Heh- Raish-Nun), and an additional “Aleph” ... Now, Haran himself had come to rectify the sin of Adam HaRishon who had performed idol-worship. However, not only did he not rectify it, but he even didn’t believe in G-d until after Avraham came out of the fiery furnace, as Chazal say. Therefore, Haran burned in Ur Kasdim. After that, he reincarnated into Aharon to rectify the sin but in the end, he did just the opposite by making the calf. Really, he should have sacrificed himself when the Erev Rav came to him and said, “Arise and make a G-d for us” (Shemot 32:1). However, he erred, thinking that it was enough that they had already killed Chur, who was also from the root of Hevel. This is the sod of, “And he built an altar before him” (Shemot 32:5), which Chazal interpret to mean: he built an altar from the slaughtered before him, that is, Chur. Thus, he didn’t stop them and instead sacrificed himself, and sinned as a result. This was not rectified until Uriah HaKohen... (Sha’ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 33)

Apparently, Aharon had not known this, otherwise he would have known to sacrifice himself rather than build the calf. All we tend to know is who we are in the present, and even that is not always so clear. In quiet moments, we might consider the fact that we have been in this world several times before, and in different eras, or we might consider the possibility when things happen in our lives that disturb us and for which we can find no logical reason.

However, beyond that, the only journey we tend to relate to is the one from birth to death, which may not be enough.

SHABBAT DAY:

"In the end, after all has been heard, fear G-d and keep His commandments, for that is all of man." (Kohelet 12:13)

We are all alike and yet we are all very different. One person’s love of life can often be the disdain of someone else’s. We all have preferences, and the amazing thing is how, even within one family, those preferences can change from family member to family member. What’s driving us all? Physical appearances and similarities are certainly a function of genetics, but what about likes and dislikes?

How one relates to the world is a function of consciousness, and consciousness is a function of the soul. And souls can come from all kinds of different places, which means that in a single family it is possible for there to be many souls from different soul roots, from different families of souls. So, physically family members are related, but on the level of the soul, they may not be. Thus, the vast differences from person to person.

It could be that a family of people are all from the same root and reincarnate together, or it could be that they are not, and that a family in a particular lifetime is like a “station” along the way. Just like a bus station, for example, unites everyone in it with a common purpose, that is, everyone there is waiting to catch a bus to their next destination. Likewise, a family unites all the souls in it, who have come together for the sake of personal tikun, which occurs because each one will get from the interactions what he or she needs.

Family members do not need to be soul-mates, like husbands and wives ought to be.

Another very interesting gilgul revealed by the Arizal is that of Rav Sheshet (c. 250 C.E.). The Arizal taught:

The Talmud says that Rav Sheshet was blind, and how when he learned Torah he was joyous and would say, “Rejoice my Nefesh! Rejoice my Nefesh! For you have I read …for you have I learned!” (Pesachim 68b). However, this is difficult to comprehend because it was for his own benefit (that he learned Torah), and not for that of another, as it says, “If one becomes wise, it is for himself that he becomes wise” (Avodah Zarah 18b).

Furthermore, why did he specifically say “my Nefesh”? And, why is all of this recorded regarding Rav Sheshet and no one else? To answer these questions, we require an introduction regarding his gilgul. Baba ben Buta the Pious was a student of the elder Shammai. All of his life he brought an “Asham Sufek” — Doubtful Transgression-Offering (Kritot 26a; this is brought when one is unsure if he committed a transgression or not, and Baba ben Buta, just to be safe, assumed that he was always in need of such atonement and brought the offering continuously though, in reality, he probably never sinned in any significant way). It was Baba ben Buta who returned as the gilgul of Rav Sheshet, to complete his tikun. Now, since Herod had blinded him (Bava Batra 4a), Rav Sheshet also ended up being blind. Thus, in “At-bash” (a type of gematria in which the last letter of the Aleph-Bait corresponds to the first — Tav-Aleph, the second-last to the second — Shin-Bait, and so on), the letters of Bait-Bait-Aleph — Baba, are the same as “Sheshet” (Shin-Shin-Tav). For, a person who does not complete his tikun in his first gilgul, even if just by a small amount, must come back to complete it in a second gilgul. However, when he does reincarnate the second time, all the reward for the Torah and mitzvot performed at that time in the second gilgul are for the sake of the Nefesh that came to complete its tikun. At the time of Techiyat HaMeitim (Resurrection of the Dead), the Nefesh will return to the first body within which the majority of Torah and mitzvot was performed. Rav Sheshet knew that his Nefesh had first been in the body of Baba ben Buta, a man of great learning and well-known for his piety. Therefore, he could only have reincarnated a second time to rectify only a small amount which had been left incomplete. This made his body sad, because it meant that all of his efforts were for the sake of that Nefesh, which in the end would return to the first body in Techiyat HaMeitim. For, learning Torah and performing mitzvot only helps the Nefesh, and not the body. Therefore, it is the Nefesh which rejoices and not the body. Thus, he (Rav Sheshet) would say, “Rejoice my Nefesh! etc.,” and not me; for you I read, and not for myself; for your purpose I learn, and not for my own purpose. (Sha’ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 4)

SEUDAT SHLISHIT:

“(Behold, G-d does these things) three times with a man…” (Iyov 33:29)

One of the questions that often comes up with respect to the concept of gilgulim is, how many times can we reincarnate? The Arizal taught:

Sometimes, we see that a person only reincarnates three times, b’sod “(Behold, G-d does these things) three times with a man” (Iyov 33:29), b’sod “For three sinners of Israel, and for four I will not return…” (Amos 2:6), and b’sod, “Visit the sins of the fathers on the children for three and four (generations)” (Shemot 20:5), and yet it says in Sefer HaTikunim (69) that a righteous person reincarnates up to one thousand generations, or something like this. In truth, the posuk itself answers this because the “four generations” refers to evil people, as it says, “Visits the sins of the father, etc., to those who hate Me” but, “doing kindness to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.” The explanation is: when a person’s Nefesh comes into the world for the first time and sins, becoming blemished and forcing it to reincarnate to become rectified, it is considered the first gilgul.

If he doesn’t become rectified, then he has to return in a second gilgul; if he again fails to become rectified, then he requires a third gilgul. From that point onward, he will not be able to reincarnate again, and this is the sod of “the Nefesh will be cut off from his people,” completely (Bereishit 17:14). However, this is only when the person failed to accomplish any rectification over the course of the first three gilgulim. If, on the other hand, at some point during the three he began the process of tikun, even a little, then he will not be cut off, but will be allowed to continue the process over the course of even one thousand generations, if necessary. Hence, one who does not rectify at all is called “evil,” and one who rectifies even a little is called “righteous”. All subsequent gilgulim will complete the rectification process. (Sha’ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 4)

Well, at least “righteous” as far as continuing the process of reincarnation. It is hard to fathom how someone could live a lifetime and not undergo some kind of tikun along the way, but obviously it is possible. If that in fact is the case for three gilgulim, then that Nefesh will not come back again, and more than likely will go to Gehenom instead to complete its tikun of its Nefesh, Ruach, and Neshamah. That’s a lot of Gehenom.

On the other hand, the “righteous person” who is at least moving in the right direction can have been here already many times. Until today, 5,767 years have passed, and if the average generation is about 30 years long, that could amount to 192 gilgulim, providing that the person lived only 30 years each time, and reincarnated immediately upon death, an unlikely scenario.

Then again, this calculation does not take into account the concept of iburim, when a soul comes, even temporarily, into the body of a person already living, to help the host person, or the soul itself. That could happen several times in one lifetime, and several times into different bodies during a very short period of time, as the Arizal explained:

Gilgulim which occur during the lifetime of a person the rabbis call, “Sod Ibur” — the Mystery of Impregnation; this is the basic difference between a regular gilgul and an ibur. Sometimes, it is even possible for the Ruach of a righteous person to come as an ibur, even from the Forefathers, even at this late stage in history. It will all depend upon the level of the mitzvah being performed by the person. Some mitzvot have the power to draw down the Nefesh of a righteous person whereas others can even draw down the Ruach …Ibur occurs for two reasons. To begin with, through the ibur of the righteous, the Nefesh of a person can become rectified to the level of the Nefesh of a righteous person. In the World-to-Come he will ascend to that level since the righteous person will have helped him to add mitzvot and holiness to his life. This reason serves the person himself. The second reason is for the sake of the righteous person who was the ibur. For, by helping with mitzvot and rectification, he has a portion in them. This is the sod of what Chazal wrote: “Great are righteous people, for even in death they merit children” (Sanhedrin 47a). In other words, when they cause the person to increase his merit they become like “fathers” who guide and help. This is to their merit. (Sha’ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 2)

I know that I reproduced a ton of material in this post. But I am sure someone will find this concept fascinating. I know that I do...

muman613

PS: There is also a famous Midrash about how Pinchas was reincarnated as Eliyahu Hanavi.

[Rubystars]

It makes it sound though as if one life isn't enough for God to judge you on. Also if you come back as something else, like an animal, it's almost like saying that God made a mistake in what He created you as the first time, and this new form would be better or promote better behavior in you. I don't believe God can make mistakes.

[muman613]

It makes it sound though as if one life isn't enough for G-d to judge you on. Also if you come back as something else, like an animal, it's almost like saying that G-d made a mistake in what He created you as the first time, and this new form would be better or promote better behavior in you. I don't believe G-d can make mistakes.

No, it is like a mission we are on. When we accomplish the goal we achieve the rewards we have accrued. When we fail we are sent back to try again { which in some ways is almost worse than Gehinom }. I think it should promote the best behavior in a Jew because we should all do the Teshuva and make the rectification we are here to make. Every life is a mission, each having a spark of holiness. We are here to find these lost sparks and reunite them with the Holy Father who loves us and wants us to return to his castle. This is the metaphor which I understand, and I just read it on the Chabad site also.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/102694/jewish/The-Reincarnated-Prince.htm
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/57211/jewish/The-Cry-of-the-Holy-Sparks.htm
muman613

[muman613]

It makes it sound though as if one life isn't enough for G-d to judge you on. Also if you come back as something else, like an animal, it's almost like saying that G-d made a mistake in what He created you as the first time, and this new form would be better or promote better behavior in you. I don't believe G-d can make mistakes.

So nothing which happens is a mistake, remember that Eve was influenced by the Enosh and ate the apple which Hashem forbid. Of course Hashem knew it was going to happen, but he still had to punish Adam and Eve... What is your point?

muman613

PS: Hashem even knew that the people would make a golden calf, but they still were allowed to make it. And he knew the spies would give an evil report, yet he allowed it to happen, and the people died in the desert. Hashem knows everything which will happen, but he allows free will.

[muman613]

Why Adam Did It!

http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_kraft_rosh_hashana_why_adam_did_it_8-19-07.html

A call for Teshuva!

muman613

[SavetheWest]

Those are not good Christians.  They are either

1. Ignorant of Jewish history and relgion

2.  Have no respect for other people

3.  Are anti-Semitic

I think it's mostly the first two

[DALMACIJA]

I've always heard that the Jewish view is that this life is the important one and all the focus is put on doing right here... since nobody really knows what will happen afterward exactly. I believe we've had at least one religious Jewish member here who doesn't believe in an afterlife at all. I'd like to know more about this concept if muman or someone else would like to help us learn about it.

Everybody who is born after Adam will die. 
This life on earth is just temperately.

[Rubystars]

Everybody who is born after Adam will die. 
This life on earth is just temperately.

Yes true but I don't believe in multiple lives for each person. I think one is enough for God to judge people on.

[DALMACIJA]

Yes true but I don't believe in multiple lives for each person. I think one is enough for G-d to judge people on.

multiple lives is that something like reincarnation?

That is a false theory.
Every person is totally unique created in Gods image.
That’s why every individual is special and unique. There won’t be and there can not be an individual who is able to replace, for example,  me or you or somebody else.
If somebody is gone than he is gone for ever.

The people who are not physically alive anymore can not return to the material world. They are separated from the material world. No human who does not live anymore can across that divide, which separates the spiritual world from the material world.

That’s why it is also naïve to believe that somebody can have "contact" with those who are death, for example.

[Dr. Dan]

absolutely terrible..to do such things to target Gd's chosen people is equally as bad as what the Muslims try to do.

[DALMACIJA]

absolutely terrible..to do such things to target Gd's chosen people is equally as bad as what the Muslims try to do.

How can we solve these problems?

Putin has forbidden missionarian activities in public in Russia. I hope that he respects that law.

In Serbia we have the same problems!

[mord]

From Tovia Singer show English Christian tries to convert Tovia singer over the radio        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/115     

[DALMACIJA]

From Tovia Singer show English Christian tries to convert Tovia singer over the radio        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/115     

You must see me speaking to those kind of people when they try to convert me on the streets.

Once two women on the street asked to me: "excuse us young man do believe in G-d?
I did not said anything in the beginning and kept walking. They went after me and asked to me: "what is your religion, please answer?" I answered to them "the official religion of SERBIA" and as long as we live ORTHODOXISM will stay Serbia’s main religion
After that our conversation was fast over.

[mord]

You must see my speaking to those kind of people when they try to convert me on the streets.

Once two women on the street asked to me: "excuse us young man do believe in G-d?
I did not said anything in the beginning and kept walking. They went after me and asked to me: "what is your religion, please answer?" I answered to them "the official religion of SERBIA" and as long as we live ORTHODOXISM will stay Serbia’s main religion
After that our conversation was fast over.

This guy from England is not an Evangelical he sounds like he really doe'nt know the Bible most American Evangelicals would be embarrased by him .According to him Thessalonians doesn't belong in his bible