remembering Amona

[q_q_]

i'm sorry to remind people about Amona.. Please skip this whole post if it is already firmly etched in your mind..

Somebody suggested that releasing terrorists for a dead body was worse than Amona.
I disagreed.. Though I don't want to get into a silly discussion about what is worse.. I want to really portray the affect Amona had on many thinking people

by the way, the releasing 1 terrorist for 2 dead bodies is just more crazy news out of israel
Ariel Sharon's friend once got captured and he exchanged 200 terrorists to release him. (I don't recall if that was releasing his dead body or not), but it's a similar thing.
That is just an apparently loony/corrupt decision with obvious but not absolutely immediate bad consequences.

Amona was a different ball game.

the israeli government had sent the Yassam - "israeli riot police" to throw jews out of their homes.
They came on horses, wielding batons. The jews didn't go easily either. The scene was bloody, and the yassam enjoyed beating jews.


Seeing the videos of what happened in Amona was horrible.. it was something else. I don't want to describe it.   I'm sure you didn't see lots of the videos.  I don't want to go into why it was so terrible.
I know we have some kids here that like to call everybody "NAZI". And I don't want to pander to them. But I don't do that.  But watching what happened there, how those sick "jews" enjoyed beating the jews of amona, it struck me.  The nazis could say they were just following orders. And they wouldn't have done it to their own.  These people were doing it to their own. A few good members of israeli parliament with arms in a sling or a bandage round their forehead from when they were beaten. It was unimaginable. A jew trampled over by a horse.   The yassam were like the SS.. I saw one of them with a helmet on, headbutt a jew for no reason. Just like a suprise, he was minding his own business , he didn't even see the yassam guy. Kids were bloodied.   You cannot compare the sickness of that to some ridiculous decision made at a table.

I thought it was worse than the nazis.

And I can tell you that I asked a leading religious zionist in britain about it.. I didn't say anything about it being like the nazis. I was embarassed too. I thought he would havel ectured me on how evil the nazis were.

I just said "what do you think about Amona". 
He held his head in his hands, and he said  "Worse than the nazis. Worse than the nazis".
I know he was crying over Gush Katif, so I cannot imagine how he felt about this.
Gush Katif bothered me, but this was something else.   I didn't have it in me to eat or drink properly/healthily for days after it.   

I felt I was watching the biggest tragedy since the holocaust.

The R zionist I spoke to, said "who would have believed this could happen in the state of israel. Who would have believed it could happen"..    And he is no lefty. He knows the reality.  But Amona was a shock, a big shock.


note- it is possible that they were following orders.  Arutz Sheva came up with a news story about police being told to break arms and not report it.  I think it was actually to break arms, not just to not care if they break arms.     

[MarZutra]

"Those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it..." - G. Santayana.  Good post.  It is always good to remind people of all the horrible things so they can find their beings, morals and HaShem to stand up, and even act in deed: "NEVER AGAIN!"

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

These people are not our people. We must realise this. If I was their or in a similar situation and I would know for sure that if I could kill them and get away with it, I wouldn't hesitate. And the religious zionists who keep saying how we should all be brothers, and we are all one nation (Kookniks) should be silenced for the nonsense. We should detest these people MUCH MUCH more then the Arabs (and I really hate the Arabs in Israel expecially). I think that this and Gush Katif should at least be a wake up call to the RZ, about which people we are dealing with. Unfortunatly many of us believed that as long as they -the secular entity was building up the land, farming, promoting Jewish Aliya, then everything was okay. Unfortunatly they had fooled the RZ. Their crimes did not start at Amona, and Aza. From their foundation they were/are criminals, worse then Ahmadinajad. These pigs have killed Jews in the past, created the current israeli socity we have today, full of Russian prostitutes, and kids who are drug users. Made Jews forcibly leave religion, kidnapped Jewish children and made them work in heir communist plantations. The list goes on.
 So they ARE the enemy. And if G-d willing one day, their is an opportunity to kick them off Jewish land, and to remove this klippa from amoung our midst, then it would certainly be a great Mitzva, a Milhemit Mitzva, once the stratigic opportunity comes.  B"H

[q_q_]

tzvi, the amona jews were woken up, moreso than you or I, and they were somewhat prepared , but they are living under this evil regime.
 
It was like jews being attacked by the German SS, or suffering a russian pogrom.

As far as danger level was concerned, these righteous jews would have been safer fighting people in a pub. (i'm not suggesting the latter as a preferable lifestyle , just describing the danger)

In Israel, Rabbi Kahane went for the solution of power.
Is the future of israel, charedi or religious zionist? Probably Charedi. They could just sit it out and then when the Charedim are the majourity, that kind of problem won't occur.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

qq, even with a charedi majority, what's to say the current "charedi" parties don't keep the same strategy which is an aversion to leadership and a unitary policy of getting a piece of the pie while the "seculars" actually run the country and the charedim can blast them all day long with their propaganda (which the seculars often prove right anyway but that's besides the point!)

[q_q_]

qq, even with a charedi majority, what's to say the current "charedi" parties don't keep the same strategy which is an aversion to leadership and a unitary policy of getting a piece of the pie while the "seculars" actually run the country and the charedim can blast them all day long with their propaganda (which the seculars often prove right anyway but that's besides the point!)

Well although I had worded myself very blatantly, saying they won't have the kind of problem of being beaten up for living in judea/samaria. (maybe charedim will throw them out and beat them up!! But I think it's unlikely).

But you're right.. maybe Charedim will choose not to take power directly, and they'll accept that kind of thing by the secular regime , against religious zionists. And we'll still have that kind of problem.

But the amount of control the charedim would wield, stopping gay parades, and maybe enforcing modesty more, may drive seculars out of the country.  I don't know if/how seculars would fight it.  Many would want to leave, but can those without foreign passports still move anywhere in the EU?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

IN the near future many more Jews will make Tishuva. And the Haredim wont make or approve of Pograms agains't fellow Jews. The biggest problem left would be the undemocratic supreme court, which technically has more power then the kenneset. (Its not a democratic system) then only way to fight it would be for Jews to follw Jewish law instead of the laws of the state of Israel.

[q_q_]

IN the near future many more Jews will make Tishuva. And the Haredim wont make or approve of Pograms agains't fellow Jews. The biggest problem left would be the undemocratic supreme court, which technically has more power then the kenneset. (Its not a democratic system) then only way to fight it would be for Jews to follw Jewish law instead of the laws of the state of Israel.

judea once said, perhaps the charedim will handcuff them and  drag them out.

Leave out the silly sentences predicting many jews going religious in the near future. Like, a faster rate than at the moment. You don't know that.  I'm sure that when Eliyahu HaNavi comes and heralds the coming of moshiach and encourages jews to be more religious, then many will enter the fold at a faster rate than at the moment.

There is no doubt that in the currently and in near future the religious jewish world will grow alot.. Simply because charedim have lots and lots of children, and far more stay in the charedi world than drop out.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

By them you mean the supreme Nazi court?

About pridicting- its not my prediction, it is something written over and over again. Even the Rambam says that their would be a hugg tishuva process.

[q_q_]

By them you mean the supreme Nazi court?

I mean the Israeli Supreme Court.

And you can use your intelligence to know what they represent, and their problems, and so on, which may be covered in sensible discussions. We don't need stupid name calling.

You have proven over the years that you can't spell, but you have shown over the past year or so that you can think.

About pridicting- its not my prediction, it is something written over and over again. Even the Rambam says that their would be a hugg tishuva process.

You actually spelt predict... correctly and incorrectly within words of each other. How on earth did you manage that?

If you took any care in spelling then you wouldn't just spell things randomly. You would at least be consistent.

Did the RAMBAM say that the huge teshuva process would given when Tzvi Ben Roshel posts on the JTF forum that it will begin?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"Did the RAMBAM say that the huge teshuva process would given "

 Talk about proper English grammer.     

Would given

[q_q_]

"Did the RAMBAM say that the huge teshuva process would given "

 Talk about proper English grammer.     !

Would given ??

I don't consistently write the word Given instead of Begin.

That's the only time I have.

There is an end to the sentence you half quoted, and you could have realised what I meant. Just as I can see what you mean when you misspell things.

It's a completely unusual error that appeared in my post, and something like that can happen when putting together a post.

But I don't consistently make the same ridiculous errors.

note- I amended your post removing the animated smilies. The letters you wrote remain unchanged.