Is Zionism today worse than exile?

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I had an interesting conversation with my brother tonight.  He suggested that Jews were safer in the exile, when they were chased from place to place.  He said that the proof of this was that they had survived 1900 years of this.  On the other hand, the return of the Jews to Israel puts them all in harm's way.  He therefore concluded that the Jews should not have come back to Israel.

I told him that his argument was true only for those who have no faith in G-d, (which he does not unfortunately).  I said that if you don't have faith in G-d, you cannot see that the return of the Jews to the land is part of an obligation to fulfill a covenant with G-d.

Having said that, I told him that the modern state of Israel as it is today, is not the complete fullfilment of the return to Zion.  It is in someways, more dangerous for the Jews to have an Israel today that is weak and secular.  A state that has democratic rights for those people who want to eliminate the state is insane.

Nasrallah (ym"sh) stated that if the Jews all gather in Israel it would save them the trouble of going after them worldwide.  Ahmadinejad (ym"sh) wants to launch nuclear weapons into Israel.  So it is true that a modern state of Israel is worse than the exile.  But I told my brother that while it is true that the Jews coming to Israel simply to die is worse than the exile, the best thing would be to have a Jewish state where Jews go to live.  If the modern state of Israel could be a strong state that eliminated its enemies before the enemies could eliminate them, that would be the best thing.  A state that remembered the principle "if someone comes to slay you, slay him first", would be the best thing for the Jews.

The exile was an obscenity.  A weak Jewish state is an obscenity.  The only answer for the Jews is a strong JEWISH state.  A secular Israel is not a Jewish state!  A capitulating Israel that allows murderers to go unpunished and worse to continue the killing of Jews is not a Jewish state!  Unfortunately, the state of Israel, as it exists today, is a weak, guilt-ridden, secular ghetto.  The Jews that live there who understand their purpose have no voice.

So I ask you, which is/was worse, the horrendous exile of 1900 years, or this incomplete and unfulfilled return to Zion that is the modern state of Israel?  It can be argued, by the way, that the weak, leftist leaders of Israel have created a state that is a pre-manifestation of the proud and independent Jewish state that we all dream of.  And in that sense, perhaps the diaspora has not yet ended?

[judeanoncapta]

More Jews died in the concentration camps in one day than died in all of Israel's wars including the terror attacks.

Therefore, NO, IT IS NOT SAFER IN THE EXILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What about with guns tho?   In places Jews are permitted to bear arms, a shoah can't happen right?

[q_q_]

Well, the key to living in exile is moving when it gets unsafe.

There was a time before all entry and exit points were shut to jews in poland, when one could leave.

There would have been a problem of where would accept them...

So moving when it gets unsafe.. isn't a perfect workaround to anti-semitism.

I did read an interesting article, that with every calamity, there is some good at the end..
So for example the great jewish community in Poland arose after the Spanish Inquisition.

In these days of nuclear weapons.. Exile is safer!

Safest thing is to live in a large country where the gentiles are not too hated, not too at risk of being nuked.

I think that muslims, though bad for jews in israel, are good for jews in the diaspora. Because it means that the gentiles are more concerned with muslims and not blaming jews on everything. Same with blacks misbehaving.  It means that jews are at risk from minority groups, but that's not such a terrible risk. The danger of the holocaust was the entire German Government was against the jews.  The police force.. And in other countries they occupied. 

Nuclear weapons are the big risk now..

State persecution of jews isn't on the cards at the moment.  Especially with all these other minorities that are so bad!  And the holocaust education is probably doing a good job.

[AsheDina]

  The LEFTIST Jews here in USA are turning it into a psychological EXILE.  If you even say that you are a Zionist- people practically look at you, like you should be in JAIL. That is what they are trying to do, NONE of these people know about Jabotinsky- just: "Bush & Zionism is evil" thats all- HOW DO WE STOP THIS?? This is DEFAMATION.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

More Jews died in the concentration camps in one day than died in all of Israel's wars including the terror attacks.

Therefore, NO, IT IS NOT SAFER IN THE EXILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But more people could die from a nuclear bomb dropped on Israel (G-d forbid) than in several years of the holocaust.  My position is that neither the exile nor the unsecured, morally disoriented state of Israel are acceptable.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

With the issue of safety- Jews (and all people) can die wherever they may be. Jews died in large numbers in the exile (for example the Holocaust) and Jews died in the land of Israel under Jewish leadership (For example the wars with Rome, Beitar, etc- check Gittin, very gruesome). With reality concerned, since we are not in the world of "G-d shining His 'face' on us, right now"- and their will be a perfect world once Moshiach Tzidkeinu establishes peace, for now the Rabbanim have dealth with reality and the way for the Seed of Yakov- the nation of Israel to survive- which was to spread out all over the world. If right now all the Jews are only in Israel- dealing with reality their can be nuklear bombs dropped their- then what? But im not discouraging people from going their becuase their is equally a possibility of Jews dying in America, or in Europe, anything could happen.
  Once again- being in Israel is a great merit, but it isn't necessarily what will keep one safe. (And also being outside of Israel is allowed (Their are different views, but I just read the Rambam- in Hilchot Melachim chapter 5 who speaks about it, and their are different things he says, but he also says that living in any land except Egypt is allowed- their are others who disagree with him, but nevertheless according to him, dwelling in Israel has advantages, but dwelling at any other place in the world (except Egypt) is allowed).

[q_q_]

<snip>their are different things he says, <snip>

I assure you that if the RAMBAM had spoken the english of today, he would have known the difference between THEIR and THERE.

Like any other primary(elementary) school child.

Given that you're such a Kiruv maniac, you should know that seculars are driven away from frummers that lack an education!  Kiruv organisations tend to recruit educated people for that very reason.

Though I must say, messing up THEIR and THERE as you do, is beyond uneducated.

If you were to tell me that you are dyslexic and you've really tried hard, but try as you might, you've given up, becaue trying to spell THEIR and THERE correctly has taken over your life in the past, and you cannot afford to keep trying, then I wouldn't believe you, but I might leave you alone about it..


 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

<snip>their are different things he says, <snip>

I assure you that if the RAMBAM had spoken the english of today, he would have known the difference between THEIR and THERE.

Like any other primary(elementary) school child.

Given that you're such a Kiruv maniac, you should know that seculars are driven away from frummers that lack an education!  Kiruv organisations tend to recruit educated people for that very reason.

Though I must say, messing up THEIR and THERE as you do, is beyond uneducated.

If you were to tell me that you are dyslexic and you've really tried hard, but try as you might, you've given up, becaue trying to spell THEIR and THERE correctly has taken over your life in the past, and you cannot afford to keep trying, then I wouldn't believe you, but I might leave you alone about it..

 Who cares, everyone knows what is meant?
 Anyway I dont pay too much attention when I write. Its not like I'm writtin some essay for school or something. + Im doing a number of things at the same time a lot of the time, so I dont pay attention and dont care about proper english (its not like im getting a grade for writting their as aposed to there, or mispelling words, so stop bustin my bolz abat it.

[White Israelite]

More Jews died in the concentration camps in one day than died in all of Israel's wars including the terror attacks.

Therefore, NO, IT IS NOT SAFER IN THE EXILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But more people could die from a nuclear bomb dropped on Israel (G-d forbid) than in several years of the holocaust.  My position is that neither the exile nor the unsecured, morally disoriented state of Israel are acceptable.

I don't think theres even 6 million Jews in Israel at the moment especially with the huge Arab population.

[q_q_]

<snip>their are different things he says, <snip>

I assure you that if the RAMBAM had spoken the english of today, he would have known the difference between THEIR and THERE.

Like any other primary(elementary) school child.

Given that you're such a Kiruv maniac, you should know that seculars are driven away from frummers that lack an education!  Kiruv organisations tend to recruit educated people for that very reason.

Though I must say, messing up THEIR and THERE as you do, is beyond uneducated.

If you were to tell me that you are dyslexic and you've really tried hard, but try as you might, you've given up, becaue trying to spell THEIR and THERE correctly has taken over your life in the past, and you cannot afford to keep trying, then I wouldn't believe you, but I might leave you alone about it..

 Who cares, everyone knows what is meant?
 Anyway I dont pay too much attention when I write. Its not like I'm writtin some essay for school or something. + Im doing a number of things at the same time a lot of the time, so I dont pay attention and dont care about proper english (its not like im getting a grade for writting their as aposed to there, or mispelling words, so stop bustin my bolz abat it.

We have alot of young members here, and your bad spelling can be a bad influence on their spelling.

People learn how to spell by seeing words spelt correctly

I know you're naturally very bad at spelling, but that is no excuse for not even bothering to learn the difference between THERE and THEIR.
 

[zachor_ve_kavod]

More Jews died in the concentration camps in one day than died in all of Israel's wars including the terror attacks.

Therefore, NO, IT IS NOT SAFER IN THE EXILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But more people could die from a nuclear bomb dropped on Israel (G-d forbid) than in several years of the holocaust.  My position is that neither the exile nor the unsecured, morally disoriented state of Israel are acceptable.

I don't think theres even 6 million Jews in Israel at the moment especially with the huge Arab population.

That's why I said several years of the holocaust instead of the entire holocaust.

[q_q_]

More Jews died in the concentration camps in one day than died in all of Israel's wars including the terror attacks.

Therefore, NO, IT IS NOT SAFER IN THE EXILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Risk in israel is nuclear.

Risk in exile is what?   Not much of a risk to life.   The problem of the Holocaust was the State , the police, were out to kill us. We are MILES away from anything like that in these times.

There are lots of problems for gentiles to worry about, they aren't planning another holocaust.
Holocaust education helps us..  by telling them it's bad! And even muslims and blacks in exile help us, by letting the gentiles worry about them. 

[White Israelite]

More Jews died in the concentration camps in one day than died in all of Israel's wars including the terror attacks.

Therefore, NO, IT IS NOT SAFER IN THE EXILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Risk in israel is nuclear.

Risk in exile is what?   Not much of a risk to life.   The problem of the Holocaust was the State , the police, were out to kill us. We are MILES away from anything like that in these times.
Holocaust education.. And muslims and blacks.  There are lots of problems for gentiles to worry about, they aren't planning another holocaust.

Dimona reactor has been leaking for several years and the government issuing out kits to nearby residents from what I understand. If that thing has a meltdown, it's going to be nasty. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to decommission it? I think Israel has another nuclear reactor for scientific purposes in the north.