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Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
q_q_:
I meant i'm not entirely sure what the story of the jews in russia is. Why they are there.
did stay during the holocaust and survive. how
did they go there from elsewhere..
e.t.c.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 04, 2008, 10:39:24 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 04, 2008, 08:53:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 10:49:46 AM ---Rav Kahane wanted to wipe out chillul hashem..
--- End quote ---
wipe out ? Source? What does this mean?
--- End quote ---
Any rabbi would want to stop chillul hashem from occurring..
--- End quote ---
No argument here.
--- Quote ---They just wouldn't define jewish weakness as chillul hashem. (though the bible does use that term, the exile is a chillul hashem, so it's a negative thing we live with for some time)
--- End quote ---
This simply cannot be the case. Those with more of a "galut mentality" might not, but there is a Torah true principle within what point Rabbi Kahane makes... He makes his case well citing prophet Ezekiel, Rashi, tehillim etc from within the source material you provided me with, QQ. None of these rabbis can honestly argue on tanach or Rashi but could only try to stretch it to something unrecognizable. But the context is clear.
I don't want to quote out the whole text from word of mouth source, but I guess we could.... But I'm sure you get what I'm saying.
As to the "halachic" aspect of it, as I said before, halachically chillul Hashem may be something different and something very specific (perhaps a subset) within a whole category of things that is zeroed in on in the gemara as a halachic principle, but that doesn't make the overall concept of chillul Hashem irrelevant outside of that narrow halachic case. And that was my point about this concept (chillul Hashem beyond the halachic example, though not necessarily always about Jewish weakness/exile but other topics as well) appearing universally in orthodox Jewish thought. It's that "non-halachically" speaking, it's not limited to that narrow case, and I feel it's a semantics game to corner it into halachic principle as if it trumps the whole concept. It's all important.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
It wouldn't be "halacha," per se, to arrange a way to remove the golden dome, but it would be good. Including in the perspective of religious Judaism.
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
--- Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on October 02, 2008, 05:07:42 PM ---The "Chief Rabbi" has always been a puppet of the Kremlin. All of Russia's "Chief Rabbis" have always done whatever the Kremlin bosses tell them to do. This individual is disgusting. He works for the KGB against his fellow Jews.
Fonzworth, we are again getting a lot of strange threads from you.
--- End quote ---
Good observations, Chaim. This "rabbi" is obviously on the KGB's payroll. How any Jews can fall for something so obvious isn't something I can answer.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 05, 2008, 10:02:41 PM ---<snip>I feel it's a semantics game to corner it into halachic principle as if it trumps the whole concept. It's all important.
--- End quote ---
It does change the concept quite a bit..
When I read Ezekiel 36, I saw ...(you may read it yourself and come to different conclusions I'd be interested to know if you do.. I don't have it in front of me right now to quote from , but this is what I recall of what I got from it)
Biblically, the exile is a chillul hashem, largely because the jewish weakness that comes with it is a chillul hashem.. because it causes the nations to scoff and say "where is their G-d"
It's an accepted thing. Better the exile, than we desecrate the holy land by misbehaving there.
G-d will bring us back, not for our sake, but for the sake of his name, and he will purify us.
So this biblical chillul hashem that is inherent in the exile, is a negative thing but it's given by G-d, that much chillul hashem, we accept. The exile is G-d's decree. it's something we're meant to accept.
Whether we should fight the rest of it, like zealouts, is another matter. Maybe the story of the Maccabee-chanukah time is a proof that we should..
But the key conceptual difference between halachic chillul hashem, and the biblical, is that in the biblical one, it is to an extent, an accepted thing.
Infact, if you look at the pasukim referenced in the three oaths in the gemara, this is in the bible, you see when we were put into exile(I think this was the first exile), we were told, ordered, to be subservient, or told that we would have to be subservient or something.
The theme of jewish strength as a positive thing, and jewish weakness as a negative thing, is throughout the bible.
The holocaust is the most horrendous example of jewish weakness, or rather, of the jewish weakness inherent in exile. The strength of the nations over us..
And all would agree we don't want that to happen again, and we should do all we can to prevent it happening again.
The one real argument I heard for religious zionism is from Rabbi Kahane. He said regarding 1967 "who wins wars in 6 days?"
To me, it is most likely, that this is a sign, not just that G-d wanted us to defeat our enemies, and not get massacred again so soon after the holocaust. But that G-d gave us a victory paralleling our biblical victory conquering the holy land in the time of yehoshua.
And if thits is indeed the case that G-d gave us this state, he wants us to run it, he wants us to defend it , not just to not be massacred, but to run it. This is biblically sanctifying his name..biblical kiddush hashem. Jewish strength.
The nations didn't say "where is your G-d"
On the contrary.. We inspired hoards of christians/evangelical christians, to love israel and praise G-d!!!
--- Quote from: KahaneBT ---It wouldn't be "halacha," per se, to arrange a way to remove the golden dome, but it would be good. Including in the perspective of religious Judaism.
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily..
The charedim give the argument that were the dome removed... the plans of secular israelis, the ruling power, would be implemented.
They want to build some silly thing there (I can't remember what)
That would be a HUGE REAL Chillul Hashem. A Halachic Chillul HaShem.
(and here's another scenario, though fortunately reform are small in israel. Can you imagine if reform build a so-called synagogue over there, what they call a temple!!!! The israeli government in their anti religious fervour would want to do it - though they need Orthodox jews in their coalition, so they couldn't)
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