Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith

[Fonzworth]

Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith

Immigrants lose their faith upon moving to Israel, asserts Rabbi Lazar ahead of holiday season. While Israeli society is to blame for this phenomenon, he says, it can be reversed if one moves back to Russia

Lazar also commented on the Russian leadership. Since the collapse of the iron curtain, he says, Jews have been treated well in Russia. He does point out that the treatment became even better as soon as Vladimir Putin became president, which continues even today with his successor Dmitry Medvedev.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3604558,00.html

        

[Mifletzet]

Lazar is an example of "the bad that is in Chabad"!

[q_q_]

The odd thing in israel is there is not much of a modern orthodox..

it's Charedi or Secular!

err, and Religious Zionist.. Maybe in israel, modern orthodox is a small subset of religious zionist. 

In Britain, people that want to be accepted, go to Modern Orthodox shuls.

They run halchically, so anybody, charedi or nothing, can go there.   It's really VERY important.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

How can anyone calling himself a rabbi honestly call for Jews to LEAVE ISRAEL and return to Russia?!!   Yerida is a SIN, and even aside from that, how can anyone encourage Jews to return to the bastion of Jew-hatred that Russia has always been?   Sickening.

[q_q_]

isn't russia in the EU and so they can go anywhere?

we get lots of russians coming to britain looking for work.

certainly no need to live in russia.. one would have to be mad. It may be cheap though! If you already have alot of money. But we aren't even talking of that here.

[Lubab]

He is corrupt. He is trying to please Putin. It's a difficult situation because Putin will kick all the shluchim out G-d forbid if they break rank from him.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

The "Chief Rabbi" has always been a puppet of the Kremlin. All of Russia's "Chief Rabbis" have always done whatever the Kremlin bosses tell them to do. This individual is disgusting. He works for the KGB against his fellow Jews.

Fonzworth, we are again getting a lot of strange threads from you.

[MarZutra]

It is long known that the main synagogue in Moscow and I believe St. Petersburg (may be volgograd or probably most synagogues...) are totally influance by and are pawns for the ruling Russian politbureau and under the guide of the Cheka, NKVD, KGB etc.  CbP is absolutely correct.  I cannot remember but there were two books I read this in.  I think one was about the history of the Irgun: "Years of Wrath Days of Glory"...the other might be "The Black Book of Communism" but my memory escapes me.

Even though Israel is, as Rabbi Kahane Z"L, stated so correctly, a "Hebrew speaking Greece" this Rabbi is a total fraud for uttering such foolishness...

It is my opinion, my opinion solely, that it is a problem within Chabad itself due to Chabad's rejection of Zionism: Religious Zionism which the Rabbi had hotly debated on as being stated explicidly in the Torah..(found on the video "Why Be Jewish").  This is, again my opinion, a major problem within the Haradim as being more of a cultural trait than that based on the tenets of Judaism itself. 

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Regardless of whether we agree with him, (which I do not), is it right for Jews to show disrespect to a Rabbi?  I don't think I can do that

[MarZutra]

Regardless of whether we agree with him, (which I do not), is it right for Jews to show disrespect to a Rabbi?  I don't think I can do that

Rabbi is a teacher and you've probably had piss poor teaches in your time.  Should one respect the Naturi Karta Rabbis standing next to Ahmedinajad?

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Regardless of whether we agree with him, (which I do not), is it right for Jews to show disrespect to a Rabbi?  I don't think I can do that

Rabbi is a teacher and you've probably had piss poor teaches in your time.  Should one respect the Naturi Karta Rabbis standing next to Ahmedinajad?

No but I don't this guy is like that

[Cato]

isn't russia in the EU and so they can go anywhere?

No. Though lots of Russian girls pass the physical and so have to dumb down their appearance to get in.

[MarZutra]

The sad fact remains that if the Chabad used its influance to "Judaize" Israel by embracing Religious Zionism, this Rabbi's fraud would not be a contention.  The sad fact is that these Heredim continue to be conflicting "sects" forming their own parties debating on non issues, keeping the so-called "Right Wing" divided with internal strife. 

Individually, speaking to a Chabad Jew, they seem to be very supportive of Rabbi Kahane's views, but collectively they reject him and his views.  Which is sad.  If the totals of diaspora Chabad Jews moved to Israel and formed a block, setting the minor differences aside, the "Right Wing" would descimate the "Left" without any problem.

This is one of the main problems I see with, not only Chabad, but all of the Hassidim/Heredim.  They are too influanced by their individual Cultural heritage under their founding Rabbi's but fail to unite under Judaism.

my two cents...

[AsheDina]

The "Chief Rabbi" has always been a puppet of the Kremlin. All of Russia's "Chief Rabbis" have always done whatever the Kremlin bosses tell them to do. This individual is disgusting. He works for the KGB against his fellow Jews.

Fonzworth, we are again getting a lot of strange threads from you.

  Yep.. We sure ARE... any BAD News the FONZ can find about Jews and Israel -he posts- why do you do this Fonz? It is like you INTENTIONALLY do this on purpose. I dont know who you are- but Dude- I AM watching you now.

[q_q_]

The sad fact remains that if the Chabad used its influance to "Judaize" Israel by embracing Religious Zionism, this Rabbi's fraud would not be a contention.  The sad fact is that these Heredim continue to be conflicting "sects" forming their own parties debating on non issues, keeping the so-called "Right Wing" divided with internal strife. 

Individually, speaking to a Chabad Jew, they seem to be very supportive of Rabbi Kahane's views, but collectively they reject him and his views.  Which is sad.  If the totals of diaspora Chabad Jews moved to Israel and formed a block, setting the minor differences aside, the "Right Wing" would descimate the "Left" without any problem.

This is one of the main problems I see with, not only Chabad, but all of the Hassidim/Heredim.  They are too influanced by their individual Cultural heritage under their founding Rabbi's but fail to unite under Judaism.

my two cents...

rabbi kahane's religious views are not very well known though.

he simply didn't air them much, he spoke largely to secular jews.

I don't think any rabbi i've spoken to agrees with his view that jewish weakness e.g. the mosque on the temple mount, is a Chillul Hashem..  This is crucial.  Rabbi Kahane wanted to wipe chillul hashem out.. But he defined chillul hashem very generally, using the biblical definition in ezekiel 36(see speech to noachides).

The funny thing is I heard him speak to kids, and he defined chillul hashem as every other rabbi does. A public sin.

I guess jewish weakness is - though not chillul hashem - it is a negative thing, all would agree it's a negative thing.  And one can be a Zealot and try to remove that negative thing.  Even though one is not obligated to.
A great chabad rabbi I spoke to did say that not everything we do has to have a halachic basis. One can do a zealous act. And if G-d rewards us for it we know it's right.  Like Chanukah.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Who says Jewish weakness is not a chillul Hashem?   If Jewish weakness is defined by letting the goyim step on you and not defending yourself, then it certainly is.   And I'm pretty sure that was one of the ways Rabbi Kahane defined "Jewish weakness."     But his idea was not something out of the blue.   It is a basic in Judaism.   If Israel is defeated in war, the nations can then say "where is your G-d"  etc.   Same if we are prevented from doing a slew of commandments or we live in constant fear, etc.

Also, who says Chanukah had no halachic basis?  It got rid of a lot of avoda zara and its practitioners in the Land of Israel, didn't it?

[q_q_]

Who says Jewish weakness is not a chillul Hashem?   

any rabbi other than rabbi kahane seems to define it as a jew sinning in public.

so if a gentile desecrates a torah scroll and you a jew stand by, it's a negative thing but not a chillul hashem.

If Jewish weakness is defined by letting the goyim step on you and not defending yourself, then it certainly is.   

not chillul hashem.

maybe it is in a biblical definition of the term, but not a halachic, from what I understand from any rabbi I have spoken to.

<snip>
But his idea was not something out of the blue.   It is a basic in Judaism.   If Israel is defeated in war, the nations can then say "where is your G-d"  etc.   Same if we are prevented from doing a slew of commandments or we live in constant fear, etc.

I said it myself already, it's in the bible , as chillul hashem.

But that is not the halachic definition of chillul hashem.

Also, who says Chanukah had no halachic basis?  It got rid of a lot of avoda zara and its practitioners in the Land of Israel, didn't it?

From what I have read, and this halacha is well known.

The halacha is very passive.  If somebody says "do idol worship or die", you die rather than idol worship. It doesn't say kill the thug.

The halacha is that if an evil regime tries to force you to sin, or die. Then you die. This is well known. Because you cannot do a chillul hashem.  (somebody told me that that gemara was developed after the chanukah period, so that way perhaps chanukah is ok).  It doesn't say kill the guy that forces you.  It may be OK to do it, may be good to do it. Zealotry.  But it's not halachic

Suppose there are idol worshipping jews in the land of israel.  Is it halacha to kill them?  To force them out?  I know of no such halacha.  Similarly if genttiles are doing it there. A chillul hashem is if a jew sins publically. Not if a gentile does. 

If a jew just stands by, then I wonder. it's perhaps not honouring G-d enough or not loving his fellow jew enough, but it's not a chillul hashem to stand by.   But if he stands by in his neighbours blood, then I suppose it would be a chillul hashem. But the gemara mentions nothing of it, just dying.  It may well be, that once the enemy is killing jews, we have to kill them.  But that is halacha regarding self defence. Nothing to do with chillul hashem.

[Shlomo]

It means a desecration of G-d's Name or something someone does that takes people away from Torah or hurts the Jewish people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem

Chillul Hashem (Hebrew: חילול השם‎, "Desecration [of] the [G-d's] Name") is a term used in Judaism particularly for any act or behavior that casts shame or brings disrepute to belief in God, any aspect of the Torah's teachings, or Jewish law.

The source for this commandment is to be found in the Book of Leviticus: "And you shall not profane My holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the Lord who hallows you" - the Biblical Lev. 22:32 term meaning to bring dishonour or shame to God's name by an action or lack thereof. Any behavior or action that disgraces, harms or shames God and his Torah is regarded as a chillul hashem ("desecration of God's name") by Orthodox Jews; in contrast, any action by a Jew that brings honor, respect, and glory to God is considered to be a Kiddush Hashem.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/419,83/What-constitutes-a-Chillul-Hashem-desecration-of-G-ds-Name.html

“Chillul Hashem” (pronounced KHIH-lool hah-SHEM) means “Desecration of G-d’s Name.” Colloquially, it refers to personal acts/behaviors that give G-d, Judaism, Torah/Mitzvot or Jews a bad name and a bad reputation.

But in its legal sense, it refers to when a Jew is faced with the choice of a) committing one of the three cardinal sins (accepting another god or religion, murder or certain illicit sexual relations), or b) execution. If s/he chooses “a” instead of “b” that is a Chillul Hashsem.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

From what I have read, and this halacha is well known.

The halacha is very passive.  If somebody says "do idol worship or die", you die rather than idol worship. It doesn't say kill the thug.

The halacha is that if an evil regime tries to force you to sin, or die. Then you die. This is well known.

This is on an individual basis.  The tribes were commanded to wipe out the idol worship from the land of Israel.   That was a national commandment.



Your scenario also assumes that you have no ability to actually prevent the guy from killing you.   (ie, you are unarmed, defenseless, etc).   Because otherwise he would be an active pursuer wouldn't he?   And in that case you must kill him.    I think this is a scenario where you really cannot do anything else except do what he says or get murdered.   But you're certainly not obligated to put yourself into that position.   It's only if you happen to end up there.   If one has the means to keep himself out of that position, you could make the argument that he's obligated to stay out of it!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Suppose there are idol worshipping jews in the land of israel.  Is it halacha to kill them?  To force them out?  I know of no such halacha.  Similarly if genttiles are doing it there. A chillul hashem is if a jew sins publically. Not if a gentile does. 

I'm not sure what this piece has to do with what we are discussing.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In yeshiva they encourage the students to do kiddush Hashem, in workplace and in other aspects of life.   They don't mean "refuse to worship idols when your boss demands it and let him kill you instead"

The concept of Kiddush Hashem and its importance is all over websites and Orthodox divrei Torah available online.   The opposite is chillul Hashem.   If you want to call all these discussions "non halachic,"  I don't think that changes its importance in any way.   It's an issue of semantics, but how is it relevant?


Shabbat Shalom.

[q_q_]

From what I have read, and this halacha is well known.

The halacha is very passive.  If somebody says "do idol worship or die", you die rather than idol worship. It doesn't say kill the thug.

The halacha is that if an evil regime tries to force you to sin, or die. Then you die. This is well known.

This is on an individual basis.  The tribes were commanded to wipe out the idol worship from the land of Israel.   That was a national commandment.

The case of tribes wiping out idol worship, was no doubt a specific commandment from G-d for them to fight them then.  We may have some of the reasons given.. They will be a thorn in your side.. But the reason they were thrown out was G-d said so. I don't think we derive halacha from it, and anyhow it has NOTHING to do with chillul hashem.

btw, the evil regime is most blatantly a public basis not an individual basis.  the evil regime case is the chillul hashem case. In an individual case there is no chillul hashem because it's private.

The RAMBAN does say it's a mitzva to conquer the land.. RAMBAM doesn't.  So RAMBAN would probably be in favour of throwing out an enemy from the land. instigating it.

It may be that when our enemy starts a war, with us, even asking for some straw, we fight them.  
I have heard that there is some chillul hashem argument there within that halacha, in a biblical sense of the term chillul hashem. But I don't think that's the source of the halacha.  No rabbis other than rabbi kahane are saying that for example a mosque on the temple mount is a chillul hashem. It's gentiles sinning .. A chillul hashem is jews sinning (in public).
But again, this is nothing to d owit

If the askmoses thing is correct.. which i'm not sure about. since it calls private sins chillul hashem. It agrees that Legally, chillul hashem is different from the linguistic meaning given in tenach.

Rabbi kahane  chose the zealous path, it's good - if G-d wants it i suppose - but it's not about following halacha or not following halacha. It's about going beyond halacha.    I'm sure rabbi kahane would say it absolutely is the halacha. But i'm not convinced.. He mostly talked to secular audiences. I haven't really heard much of his religious arguments, not proofs anyway.

But I can tell you that chillul hashem , legally, most would take not as rabbi kahane did. But sins done by jews. (in public I woujld say) So, more like askmoses than like rabbi kahane.

 

[q_q_]

Suppose there are idol worshipping jews in the land of israel.  Is it halacha to kill them?  To force them out?  I know of no such halacha.  Similarly if genttiles are doing it there. A chillul hashem is if a jew sins publically. Not if a gentile does. 

I'm not sure what this piece has to do with what we are discussing.

We are discussing Chillul Hashem.

Rav Kahane wanted to wipe out chillul hashem..   Even if it were the case that we should wipe it out by any means possible..   There is a difference between how rav kahane took chillul hahem - which is the biblical definition..

And the halachic definition (Which I also heard from rav kahane).  Public sin done by a jew.

in that instance, of idol worship, it would be chillul hashem halachically.. But wiping it out how? By killing gentiles?
Maybe kill them in a war of self defence.
This is a different issue to the chillul hashem issue as rabbi kahane defined it, and wiping out chillul hashem.

Rabbi Kahane applied it to the mosque on the temple mount. 
to jewish weakness.

but still. wiping it out is zealousness. 
As individuals we shouldn't sin.. And we should in some way try to rebuke or stop our jewish neighbour from sinning. But chanukah, like killing hellenistic jews. That's zealousness(which was good for chanukah).. But it's not halacha.

[q_q_]

It means a desecration of G-d's Name or something someone does that takes people away from Torah or hurts the Jewish people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem

Chillul Hashem (Hebrew: חילול השם‎, "Desecration [of] the [G-d's] Name") is a term used in Judaism particularly for any act or behavior that casts shame or brings disrepute to belief in G-d, any aspect of the Torah's teachings, or Jewish law.

The source for this commandment is to be found in the Book of Leviticus: "And you shall not profane My holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the Lord who hallows you" - the Biblical Lev. 22:32 term meaning to bring dishonour or shame to G-d's name by an action or lack thereof. Any behavior or action that disgraces, harms or shames G-d and his Torah is regarded as a chillul hashem ("desecration of G-d's name") by Orthodox Jews; in contrast, any action by a Jew that brings honor, respect, and glory to G-d is considered to be a Kiddush Hashem.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/419,83/What-constitutes-a-Chillul-Hashem-desecration-of-G-ds-Name.html

“Chillul Hashem” (pronounced KHIH-lool hah-SHEM) means “Desecration of G-d’s Name.” Colloquially, it refers to personal acts/behaviors that give G-d, Judaism, Torah/Mitzvot or Jews a bad name and a bad reputation.

But in its legal sense, it refers to when a Jew is faced with the choice of a) committing one of the three cardinal sins (accepting another G-d or religion, murder or certain illicit sexual relations), or b) execution. If s/he chooses “a” instead of “b” that is a Chillul Hashsem.

but rav kahane wanted to wipe chillul hashem out.. and he took the biblical definition.

even according to that askmoses site, that thought is not a halachic thing.  It's being zealous..

which is or can be good.  But it's not a halachic imperative.

[MarZutra]

rabbi kahane's religious views are not very well known though.

he simply didn't air them much, he spoke largely to secular jews.

I don't think any rabbi i've spoken to agrees with his view that jewish weakness e.g. the mosque on the temple mount, is a Chillul Hashem..  This is crucial.  Rabbi Kahane wanted to wipe chillul hashem out.. But he defined chillul hashem very generally, using the biblical definition in ezekiel 36(see speech to noachides).

The funny thing is I heard him speak to kids, and he defined chillul hashem as every other rabbi does. A public sin.

I guess jewish weakness is - though not chillul hashem - it is a negative thing, all would agree it's a negative thing.  And one can be a Zealot and try to remove that negative thing.  Even though one is not obligated to.
A great chabad rabbi I spoke to did say that not everything we do has to have a halachic basis. One can do a zealous act. And if G-d rewards us for it we know it's right.  Like Chanukah.

Of course you are correct here.  As one who has actually read Rabbi Kahane's works can attest to his, Torah backed, views on Chillul HaShem. 

I've met many Orthodox Rabbis that see Rabbi Kahane's views as correct. Sadly, VERY few would openly back him in the most important time when it was needed, similarly how they tend to "sit idly by" today.  The Heredim are of a different cloth, aforementioned.

q_q I'd say that there are very few on here that have actually read the Rabbi's words, listened to him debate or even watched his lecture on video.  A very logical and passionate man to which man of the ignorami like Denis Prager and David Horowitz (spelling) benightedly compared him to Hitler, Arafat or Genghis Khan.

So for those whom have not read anything of Rabbi Kahane:
http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/ebooks/ebooks.html