Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
Is Dating Allowed in Judaism?
AryehYehudah:
I thought it was only for the goyim and the lefty Jews.. lol.. What about premarital sex? These are religious questions sorry, maybe I should move to another thread.. I have become a bit more conservative minded over the years, pardon anyone I offend.
muman613:
--- Quote from: AryehYehudah on October 07, 2008, 04:05:16 AM ---I thought it was only for the goyim and the lefty Jews.. lol.. What about premarital sex? These are religious questions sorry, maybe I should move to another thread.. I have become a bit more conservative minded over the years, pardon anyone I offend.
--- End quote ---
Aryeh,
Obviously pre-marital sex is a big NO NO in Judaism. Men and women who are not married are not allowed to be alone with each other behind closed doors. This is called Yichud. Read about it @ http://www.jewishmag.com/101mag/yechud/yechud.htm .
From this article:
Yichud is a decree to protect both men and women alike from negative actions as well as negative thoughts from others.
Let us understand some of the prohibitions of yichud:
According to the Torah, any consanguineous relations (i.e., those that a person is not allowed to marry, as listed in Leviticus 18:6-20) are forbidden to be secluded together, with the exception of:
1) A mother with a son/grandson, etc.
2) A father with a daughter/granddaughter, etc.
3) A brother with his sister on a temporary basis (for example, if their parents left them alone in the house for a short time. However they shouldn't rent an apartment together.)
These three above mentioned couples are permitted to seclude themselves together since it is assumed that people shun such incestuous relationships.
4) A husband and wife, even though the wife is in the middle of her menstrual period, and they may not have relations at the time. (This is permitted because it is assumed that the husband can restrain himself for the duration of the forbidden period.)
King David's decree extended the original prohibition to include any man and woman, whether Jewish or non-Jewish (with the above four exceptions remaining permitted). The Talmud states (Ketuboth 13b): "There is no assurance (or means of guarding) against immorality." No person is assumed to have such self-restraint that he may be exempt from these laws.
In all the rules of yichud, the age guidelines begin at the age of three for a female and a male above the age of nine. From this age on, they may not be secluded with a member of the opposite sex. (In a recently published biography of a famous American composer, it is related that he had his first sexual encounter at age nine!) There is sufficient evidence that even a child of age nine has achieved some level of sexual maturity and therefore cannot be "trusted".
Obviously the rules of Yichud would prevent a man and woman from being in a situation where anyone could even think that they had a physical relationship.
There is also the concept of Tzniut {or Modesty}. Read about it @ http://ohr.edu/ask/ask076.htm . From this article :
The Halachot of Tzniut - modesty - can be divided into two categories: relative and absolute.
The Halachot of Tzniut which are absolute are the minimal Torah standard. For example, the Talmud states that it is immodest for a man to listen to a woman sing. Similarly, a married woman should cover her hair, and all women should cover the thigh and upper arm. This means covering the elbow and knee - even when sitting.
The other aspect of Tzniut is the relative aspect, which changes based on societal standards. For example, in a place where the accepted style is to wear skirts down to the ankles - as was the style at the turn of the century - a mid-calf skirt would violate the laws of Tzniut.
In Judaism we have a process called Shidduchim where prospective mates can 'date' each other. Read about this @ http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/210,2219784/What-is-the-Jewish-approach-to-finding-a-mate.html . From this article:
The Shidduch
There are two, separate aspects to a shidduch (match): character traits and attraction. The attraction one person feels for another, or "chemistry", as it is often called, is as elusive as it is undefinable. It is inexplicable even to the couple themselves. It may spring from a person's specific personality, from upbringing, or from the essence of his soul. In any case, only the man and woman involved can decide if they feel that necessary mutual attraction.
The practical aspects of a shidduch [on the other hand] is the area in which one should seek guidance.
The guidance is needed for a very good reason. Third parties are not influenced by the subconscious desires that blind those who are personally involved. Outside observers can view a situation objectively, without being taken in by a prospective partner's beauty, sparkling conversation, or social popularity.
I hope that this points you in the proper direction in learning how to find a mate the Jewish way...
muman613
AryehYehudah:
Nice Post Muman... I am still learning more about my religion and have much I don't know. As for me, from my take on the Torah, which is the main book I know, since I am not so knowledgable on most Jewish writings, that sex before marriage is a sin and dating is also a sin. However, I know in the modern world, people say we need change, as thigns like arranged marriages are not practical today. Personally, I think dating is bad, because people just look for people based on the outward appearance and there is no involvement with family. I don't think its good for an unmarried woman to be with a man. I, myself have been seduced by some women in the past and I stay clear of them. It seems that most people think virginity is something to be broken before you get married.
In American and European culture though it seems like if you don't date girls you are a real reject. I just wonder if you can answer a question, I see there is two sites, Jewish and Gentile Dating on JTF. Are you people (JTF) advocating for men and women to date each other attended by family or is it like a one on one dating hookup site? I think if JTF is encouraging men and women to date each other without parents or family present, it wouild be not good. Also, should a woman cover her hair only after marriage or in any situation where she may lure men by her looks, leading to loss of virginity? I appreciate your response, thanks.
q_q_:
in practice, only the most religious do arranged marrages, like, black hat, prayer 3 times a day. And of those , some of them date anyway and don't do arranged marriages.
in arranged marriage situations, they still "date", but for a few weeks.
in the "modern orthodox" world, there is dating.
In the right of the modern orthodox world, it can work out i.e. the male and female don't have sex. Obviously if they do have sex it's kept quiet, because they know it's technically wrong. They often get married and nobody knows, and they lead a perfectly regular modern orthodox life.
The basics, are Shabbat. Kosher. And morning prayer.
The more religious are really into prayer and regular torah study.
It's not so much about left and right like in politics - leftists are idiots. It's about how serious about doing things. Judaism is a difficult thing.
Arranged marriages haven't got the halachic problems of risk of sex before marriage. But they have problems of sometimes not being a good match. Because they just trust some third party and don't know each other long enough to know each other. The modern orthodox way may have less risk of heartbreak and embarassement like weddings suddenly being called off.
muman613:
Shalom,
There has been a bit of a debate whether we should actually be running a dating section on JTF. Left to its own device it becomes a vehicle for sin. I dont believe our organization is really in the business of allowing sin to spread. I am a moderator in this section and I have been very lax in enforcing some of the ideals of JTF.
I would hope that we would not be responsible for Jews dating non-Jews because this would certainly be unholy in the eyes of Hashem. Since we attract numerous non-Jewish members, JTF has established a Gentile Dating section in the hopes that those who are not currently Jewish would be able to have a forum to meet and discuss issues.
In my original response I was not implying that Sidduchim is the only thing which is Kosher today. When I was single I was involved in a JCC dating meet-up. It was interesting but it didnt pan out. In some sense I think Sidduchim is a good way. I am currently married and the woman I met perchance and fell in love with. Our relationship was rocky for very many years and yet in the end we made things work out. We are together today after almost 20 years together. Watch the movie Fidler on the Roof and recall the song "Do you love me?". It contains bits of truth.
--- Quote ---
(Tevye)
"Golde, I have decided to give Perchik permission to become engaged to our daughter, Hodel."
(Golde)
"What??? He's poor! He has nothing, absolutely nothing!"
(Tevye)
"He's a good man, Golde.
I like him. And what's more important, Hodel likes him. Hodel loves him.
So what can we do?
It's a new world... A new world. Love. Golde..."
Do you love me?
(Golde)
Do I what?
(Tevye)
Do you love me?
(Golde)
Do I love you?
With our daughters getting married
And this trouble in the town
You're upset, you're worn out
Go inside, go lie down!
Maybe it's indigestion
(Tevye)
"Golde I'm asking you a question..."
Do you love me?
(Golde)
You're a fool
(Tevye)
"I know..."
But do you love me?
(Golde)
Do I love you?
For twenty-five years I've washed your clothes
Cooked your meals, cleaned your house
Given you children, milked the cow
After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now?
(Tevye)
Golde, The first time I met you
Was on our wedding day
I was scared
(Golde)
I was shy
(Tevye)
I was nervous
(Golde)
So was I
(Tevye)
But my father and my mother
Said we'd learn to love each other
And now I'm asking, Golde
Do you love me?
(Golde)
I'm your wife
(Tevye)
"I know..."
But do you love me?
(Golde)
Do I love him?
For twenty-five years I've lived with him
Fought him, starved with him
Twenty-five years my bed is his
If that's not love, what is?
(Tevye)
Then you love me?
(Golde)
I suppose I do
(Tevye)
And I suppose I love you too
(Both)
It doesn't change a thing
But even so
After twenty-five years
It's nice to know
--- End quote ---
muman613
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