General Category > General Discussion
Israel receives Iranian youth for cancer treatment
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 04:14:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 02:03:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 11, 2008, 07:53:05 PM ---On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do. They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are. But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools. They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it. He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.
The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."
It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.
--- End quote ---
But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people? We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people?
The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically... Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..
--- End quote ---
That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering. I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978. There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down. But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family. Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him? Would you agree with that? I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath. To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd. I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically. I just don't think it's right.
--- End quote ---
Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:
1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?
Why not to treat? Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that. Very justified not to treat.
Why to treat? Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas! A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.
Both logical points...but what do I do? If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life. If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder? Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?
I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question. Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath. It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future. Is this wrong? Does it go against Torah law? Did this make any sense?
zachor_ve_kavod:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 05:39:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 04:14:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 02:03:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 11, 2008, 07:53:05 PM ---On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do. They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are. But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools. They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it. He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.
The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."
It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.
--- End quote ---
But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people? We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people?
The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically... Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..
--- End quote ---
That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering. I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978. There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down. But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family. Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him? Would you agree with that? I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath. To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd. I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically. I just don't think it's right.
--- End quote ---
Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:
1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?
Why not to treat? Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that. Very justified not to treat.
Why to treat? Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas! A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.
Both logical points...but what do I do? If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life. If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder? Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?
I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question. Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath. It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future. Is this wrong? Does it go against Torah law? Did this make any sense?
--- End quote ---
This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child. The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance. But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy.
It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.
In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can. Why? Because that's what lions do.
In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways. BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.
I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me. The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me. I will have brought honour to them. If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them. So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.
These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 06:52:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 05:39:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 04:14:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 02:03:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 11, 2008, 07:53:05 PM ---On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do. They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are. But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools. They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it. He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.
The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."
It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.
--- End quote ---
But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people? We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people?
The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically... Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..
--- End quote ---
That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering. I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978. There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down. But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family. Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him? Would you agree with that? I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath. To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd. I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically. I just don't think it's right.
--- End quote ---
Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:
1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?
Why not to treat? Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that. Very justified not to treat.
Why to treat? Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas! A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.
Both logical points...but what do I do? If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life. If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder? Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?
I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question. Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath. It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future. Is this wrong? Does it go against Torah law? Did this make any sense?
--- End quote ---
This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child. The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance. But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy.
It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.
In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can. Why? Because that's what lions do.
In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways. BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.
I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me. The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me. I will have brought honour to them. If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them. So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.
These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.
--- End quote ---
I agree that these doctors should consider the consequences and weigh the benefits..
However, I want to tell you about the lion and the thorn story.
By all means, a lion does what it does because it was born that way. An evil person is not born evil, but taught to do evil and rewarded for it..that's the difference between the two.
Nevertheless...I agree that the doctors need to consider the consequences even of these actions...And if it is an innocent boy, then to do one's job shoudl be to do one's job...
if it is a jihadist..we'll talk about it...it depends.
zachor_ve_kavod:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 07:48:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 06:52:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 05:39:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 04:14:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 02:03:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 11, 2008, 07:53:05 PM ---On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do. They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are. But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools. They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it. He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.
The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."
It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.
--- End quote ---
But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people? We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people?
The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically... Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..
--- End quote ---
That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering. I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978. There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down. But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family. Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him? Would you agree with that? I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath. To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd. I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically. I just don't think it's right.
--- End quote ---
Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:
1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?
Why not to treat? Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that. Very justified not to treat.
Why to treat? Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas! A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.
Both logical points...but what do I do? If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life. If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder? Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?
I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question. Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath. It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future. Is this wrong? Does it go against Torah law? Did this make any sense?
--- End quote ---
This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child. The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance. But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy.
It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.
In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can. Why? Because that's what lions do.
In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways. BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.
I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me. The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me. I will have brought honour to them. If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them. So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.
These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.
--- End quote ---
I agree that these doctors should consider the consequences and weigh the benefits..
However, I want to tell you about the lion and the thorn story.
By all means, a lion does what it does because it was born that way. An evil person is not born evil, but taught to do evil and rewarded for it..that's the difference between the two.
Nevertheless...I agree that the doctors need to consider the consequences even of these actions...And if it is an innocent boy, then to do one's job shoudl be to do one's job...
if it is a jihadist..we'll talk about it...it depends.
--- End quote ---
You don't think that some people are just plain evil, that they are born that way? What about Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, who grew up with parents who cared for them, took them to church, taught them right from wrong? Yet these monsters still ended up doing very evil acts. I doubt that they were taught this evil. I think it was innate.
I'm not saying, by the way that the islamists are born evil. One of the worst aspects of islam is how they corrupt their children by brainwashing them with the most evil ideology. So you're right that it is doubtful that this particular person was born evil, unlike the lion I was talking about.
But I'm just curious as an aside, whether you believe evil is always chosen or if G-d can make some people evil. G-d made Pharoah, didn't he?
Shamgar:
Most doctors are going to follow the Hippocratic oath and deliver aid to anyone and everyone even enemy combatants. The only exception, I can almost bet would be muslim doctors, who would follow the hipocritic oath.
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