General Category > General Discussion
Israel receives Iranian youth for cancer treatment
zachor_ve_kavod:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 13, 2008, 02:33:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 09:36:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 07:48:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 06:52:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 05:39:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 04:14:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 02:03:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 11, 2008, 07:53:05 PM ---On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do. They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are. But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools. They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it. He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.
The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."
It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.
--- End quote ---
But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people? We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people?
The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically... Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..
--- End quote ---
That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering. I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978. There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down. But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family. Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him? Would you agree with that? I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath. To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd. I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically. I just don't think it's right.
--- End quote ---
Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:
1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?
Why not to treat? Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that. Very justified not to treat.
Why to treat? Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas! A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.
Both logical points...but what do I do? If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life. If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder? Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?
I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question. Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath. It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future. Is this wrong? Does it go against Torah law? Did this make any sense?
--- End quote ---
This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child. The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance. But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy.
It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.
In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can. Why? Because that's what lions do.
In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways. BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.
I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me. The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me. I will have brought honour to them. If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them. So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.
These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.
--- End quote ---
I agree that these doctors should consider the consequences and weigh the benefits..
However, I want to tell you about the lion and the thorn story.
By all means, a lion does what it does because it was born that way. An evil person is not born evil, but taught to do evil and rewarded for it..that's the difference between the two.
Nevertheless...I agree that the doctors need to consider the consequences even of these actions...And if it is an innocent boy, then to do one's job shoudl be to do one's job...
if it is a jihadist..we'll talk about it...it depends.
--- End quote ---
You don't think that some people are just plain evil, that they are born that way? What about Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, who grew up with parents who cared for them, took them to church, taught them right from wrong? Yet these monsters still ended up doing very evil acts. I doubt that they were taught this evil. I think it was innate.
I'm not saying, by the way that the islamists are born evil. One of the worst aspects of islam is how they corrupt their children by brainwashing them with the most evil ideology. So you're right that it is doubtful that this particular person was born evil, unlike the lion I was talking about.
But I'm just curious as an aside, whether you believe evil is always chosen or if G-d can make some people evil. G-d made Pharoah, didn't he?
--- End quote ---
I think it can be one or the other...I'll give you an example..
I believe the majority of people who do evil are rewarded to do so. But with the right type of punishment can be guided back to non-evil. These type of people are what i would consider psychologically sane individuals who are aware of their actions and can be taught to be one or the other. Certainly when evil is taught as a way of life and at a young age, it is much harder to reform that individual once they are an adult...but who knows? Some Americans who were once pro-Reagan and had conservative values in the 80's might have become nutty with liberal leanings in today's time due to the change in the status quo. Therefore, anything is possible with sane individuals who are misguided or guided to do evil.
The vast minority of people who do evil are that way because they are mentally insane psychopaths, just like Jeffery Dalmer or Ted Bundy who might have had normal upbringings...I mean, it's quite obvious. If the natural logic is for a person in a normal upbringing will be normal...the one that is mentally insane and eats people, for example, has a mental defective going on...a serious mental medical problem. I think an evil sane individual would have a hard time doing what Dalmer did.
So, in a nutshell...one can be sane and be taught and rewarded to be a murderer like yasser arafat. And a vast minority are mentally insane and no matter how they were raised will do things that will harm others because they simply cannot control what their broken brain signals tell them. A sane individual can be fixed more easily than a mentally insane individual. Those either need to be institutionalized, given certain medications, or, if they killed a number of people, put to death.
--- End quote ---
Are you suggesting that any person who is innately evil is insane?
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 13, 2008, 02:44:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 13, 2008, 02:33:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 09:36:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 07:48:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 06:52:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 05:39:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 12, 2008, 04:14:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on October 12, 2008, 02:03:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 11, 2008, 07:53:05 PM ---On the surface of it of course, it seems like a good thing for the Israelis to do. They think that it will make them seem like decent people, which they are. But I believe that this is an example of the mercy of fools. They may save this boy, but he will not thank them for it. He will turn around and act to destroy Israel, just like ALL the muslims.
The Rabbis tell us (rightly) "He who has mercy upon the cruel, will someday be cruel onto the mercifull."
It may sound harsh to say that they should not treat this boy, but it is common sense, which is something that is sadly lacking in Israel.
--- End quote ---
But do we know if this 16 year old and his parents are cruel people? We know that Iran, as a nation, as a whole are filled with cruel people from a cruel ideology...but can we rightly say this 16 year old boy with cancer and his parents are cruel people?
The Rabbis DO tell us rightly that if we had mercy upon the cruel that we would be cruel to the merciful....Perhaps...we aren't being merciful to anyone cruel specifically... Be careful on your judgement of this boy and his parents..
--- End quote ---
That's a good point, Dr. Dan and worth considering. I know that there are Iranians who are secular and hate what happened to their country in 1978. There are some (I suppose) that would like to see Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollas brought down. But I also suspect that there are few to nil Iranians who support Israel and the Jews. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't judge this boy or his family. Can we agree at least that IF it were established that this boy and his family were enemies of Israel, that Israeli doctors should not treat him? Would you agree with that? I'm very interested in your opinion as you are a doctor who took an oath. To me, the idea that everyone should receive medical care regardless of their opinions is absurd. I get the feeling that these Israeli doctors would treat anybody who needed it, even Ahmadinejad hypothetically. I just don't think it's right.
--- End quote ---
Good point...so let's answer this question in a way as the following: Let's say we knew that the parents were Jihadists bent on Israel's destruction..and they were raising their boy to become one:
1. To treat?
2. Not to treat?
Why not to treat? Because if we save his life, he will come and kill me after that. Very justified not to treat.
Why to treat? Because they are misguided to think Jews are evil murderers..but alas! A Jew saved their life...now from becoming Jihadists they become fervent Jew and Israel supporters...OR...insteading of hating all Jews just because they are Jews, they make exception for some Jews, but still hate Israel and wish on their destruction.
Both logical points...but what do I do? If I had a choice to save a Jew versus a non-Jew (and it was a Jihadist), obviously I would save the Jew's life. If a murderer came to me to save his life, I would only perform the procedure to learn how to save decent peoples' lives...and a would-be murderer or supporter of murder? Why wouldn't I perform a procedure that is very rare so that it can be used to save good peoples' lives?
I'm not giving an answer it..i'm just speculating...So I'll ask a question to your question. Let's say it was a Jihadist's son..I know that if I did the procedure it wasn't because of the kindness of my heart or a general oath. It would be because I want to essentually use this poor sap as a guinea pig to learn how to do the same procedure on a righteous person who might need it in the future. Is this wrong? Does it go against Torah law? Did this make any sense?
--- End quote ---
This reminds me of a fable I heard when I was a child. The jist of the tale is that a lion gets a thorn in his paw, and a boy(?) removes it despite his reluctance and worry that the lion would kill him when it got the chance. But the lion becomes a faithful servant and friend to the boy.
It's a nice story, it goes over really well with peace now.
In real life, the lion tears the boy into shreds the minute it can. Why? Because that's what lions do.
In my opinion the can perform the treatment or not perform the treatment, and justify their desicion in any number of ways. BUT, they should know that the deeds of this boy, throughout his life, are their deeds too.
I survived cancer 9 years ago, and I feel a burden to my doctors who saved me, and of course to G-d who saved me. The way I see it, if I do good and am rightous, then it was a good thing that the doctors saved me. I will have brought honour to them. If I am evil and unjust, then I will bring shame upon them. So far, I feel I have been generally pretty good, but could be much better.
These doctors should consider the consequences of their actions.
--- End quote ---
I agree that these doctors should consider the consequences and weigh the benefits..
However, I want to tell you about the lion and the thorn story.
By all means, a lion does what it does because it was born that way. An evil person is not born evil, but taught to do evil and rewarded for it..that's the difference between the two.
Nevertheless...I agree that the doctors need to consider the consequences even of these actions...And if it is an innocent boy, then to do one's job shoudl be to do one's job...
if it is a jihadist..we'll talk about it...it depends.
--- End quote ---
You don't think that some people are just plain evil, that they are born that way? What about Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy, who grew up with parents who cared for them, took them to church, taught them right from wrong? Yet these monsters still ended up doing very evil acts. I doubt that they were taught this evil. I think it was innate.
I'm not saying, by the way that the islamists are born evil. One of the worst aspects of islam is how they corrupt their children by brainwashing them with the most evil ideology. So you're right that it is doubtful that this particular person was born evil, unlike the lion I was talking about.
But I'm just curious as an aside, whether you believe evil is always chosen or if G-d can make some people evil. G-d made Pharoah, didn't he?
--- End quote ---
I think it can be one or the other...I'll give you an example..
I believe the majority of people who do evil are rewarded to do so. But with the right type of punishment can be guided back to non-evil. These type of people are what i would consider psychologically sane individuals who are aware of their actions and can be taught to be one or the other. Certainly when evil is taught as a way of life and at a young age, it is much harder to reform that individual once they are an adult...but who knows? Some Americans who were once pro-Reagan and had conservative values in the 80's might have become nutty with liberal leanings in today's time due to the change in the status quo. Therefore, anything is possible with sane individuals who are misguided or guided to do evil.
The vast minority of people who do evil are that way because they are mentally insane psychopaths, just like Jeffery Dalmer or Ted Bundy who might have had normal upbringings...I mean, it's quite obvious. If the natural logic is for a person in a normal upbringing will be normal...the one that is mentally insane and eats people, for example, has a mental defective going on...a serious mental medical problem. I think an evil sane individual would have a hard time doing what Dalmer did.
So, in a nutshell...one can be sane and be taught and rewarded to be a murderer like yasser arafat. And a vast minority are mentally insane and no matter how they were raised will do things that will harm others because they simply cannot control what their broken brain signals tell them. A sane individual can be fixed more easily than a mentally insane individual. Those either need to be institutionalized, given certain medications, or, if they killed a number of people, put to death.
--- End quote ---
Are you suggesting that any person who is innately evil is insane?
--- End quote ---
i'm suggesting that if a thorough history were done by experts on the field of sanity they can choose whether one is a psychopath by birth and physically and mentally insane or whether they were brainwashed or taught or rewarded to do evil actions.
I would rather refrain from using the term innately "evil"...rather than psychopathic...psychopath do evil things and as far as I know, can't help it...That doesn't mean they get a free pass either..it just means they can't help it and they can't be fixed. The minority fall under this category...All the rest that do evil have or had free will choose good or choose evil..They are not insane..they are very sane. Evil sane people might be capable of doing acts as heinous as mentally insane people who do evil things...however, that's just a speculation. i'm not a psychiatrist.
muman613:
--- Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod on October 13, 2008, 02:44:51 AM ---<snip snip>
Are you suggesting that any person who is innately evil is insane?
--- End quote ---
Aren't all the innately evil people completely insane in the movies? Especially the villains in James Bond, or Austin Powers?
>:( :doctor:
muman613
q_q_:
--- Quote from: mord on October 10, 2008, 04:59:31 PM ---<snip>
Interior Ministry, Shin Bet grant unusual plea by Tehran family to have son suffering form brain cancer treated in Jewish state. 'When a child's life is at stake religion and origin play no part,' says Minister Sheetrit
<snip>
He added that Sheba had acquired a certain history in treating children from various foreign countries. "We hope that with the love and affection we give these kids we are paving the way for at least some <snip>
understanding between people," he said. "We can't change the politics. We are not politicians. We do this because we feel it is our job.
<snip>
"As far as we are concerned, we are not involved in politics. He is from a country that doesn't really like our existence here, but I think part of our job is to prove to countries like Iran that we are here to help the regular people
--- End quote ---
They absolutely are playing politics.
Giving preferential treatment to the enemy in the hope of winning them over with love!
To paraphrase Kahane as best as I remember.. on talk radio.
With arabs, being nice is perceived as weak, and that's bad.
syyuge:
Too many pros and cons can be explained in this matter, however the medical community may be doing a fundamental error in this case.
For best possible treatment, the Iranian patient should be referred to an Israeli veterinary surgeon. :::D
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