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Israel receives Iranian youth for cancer treatment
muman613:
--- Quote from: AryehYehudah on October 13, 2008, 07:13:45 AM ---I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia. Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis. Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients. ;D
--- End quote ---
AryehYehuda,
I want to believe you said this in anger. I cant believe I actually hear this from you. We cannot sink to the level of those who have tortured us. We cannot resort to the kind of barbaric practices which the Nazis performed on our brothers and sisters in Germany. There is nothing gained by being unmercifully wicked to our enemies. Either they should die on the battlefield or should be removed from the land.
I realize sometimes we say things which we dont really mean because we are so very upset with the situation. I dont think that Rabbi Kahane would want to torture them with medical experiments either.
muman613
AryehYehudah:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2008, 04:30:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: AryehYehudah on October 13, 2008, 07:13:45 AM ---I support Israel in treating Arabs over Israelis for the procedure of Euthanasia. Also labotomies are another procedure I would even pay my tax dollar to help be performed on Arabs over Israelis. Lets put our doctors to good use and do the right thing for our kind and thankful Arab patients. ;D
--- End quote ---
AryehYehuda,
I want to believe you said this in anger. I cant believe I actually hear this from you. We cannot sink to the level of those who have tortured us. We cannot resort to the kind of barbaric practices which the Nazis performed on our brothers and sisters in Germany. There is nothing gained by being unmercifully wicked to our enemies. Either they should die on the battlefield or should be removed from the land.
I realize sometimes we say things which we dont really mean because we are so very upset with the situation. I dont think that Rabbi Kahane would want to torture them with medical experiments either.
muman613
--- End quote ---
Did I sink to a low level??? Did I say anything about torture?? I don't think you read what I said very carefully. I never said anything about torturing them or performing experiments on them or any nazi type of insanity. Why don't you read again. I said Euthanasia, meaning to perform a procedure that immediately kills them, basically putting them out of their own misery. Or, as a joke somewhat, I said a labotomy, meaning to remove part of their brain that allows them to think. So, you feel it is ethical to drop bombs on the homes of arabs and let them die a slow painful death with a shrapnel wound, rather than to simply inject a chemical that can peacefully kill them in a minute?
Yes, I said it out of anger, but nothign I said was any less ethical than any other person on this site. WHy do you just condemn me for speakign about killing arabs, go condemn the rest of the board too. You think what I said was worse than "Nuke Mecca" ??!?! Go read again what I wrote, I never said perform experiments. What I was saying, and you totally missed my point, is that if we are going to spend Israeli tax dollars and prevent suffering Jewish people from getting help from our doctors in favor of arabs, then we should perform procedures on the arabs that will be beneficial to us Jews, like killing them. No, I have little mercy on arabs now, they want to genocide my race. Kill or be killed!
PLEASE Do not add words to my post that I did not say, I never said anything about experiments.. I don't think you people even know what euthanasia or a labotomy is... lol
muman613:
AryehYehudi,
I understand your opinion and I dont disagree. We need to be more supportive of saving Jewish lives than saving the lives of our enemies. But...
Euthanasia is against the Torah...
muman613
PS: Yes, there is a difference between killing a person who is going to kill you on the battlefield and killing a patient who needs medical help.
PPS: I am sorry if it appears I picked on this post to complain. In general I am just like you in that I have made comments like this also. But I dont think that being cruel is a good way. So many mitzvot in Torah relate to not hating your neighbor and offering rebuke to them.
--- Quote ---http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/28/Q1/
Mark from Washington D.C. wrote:
I was wondering about Euthanasia and Jewish law. I know that it's wrong to murder, but this is an act of mercy, and wouldn't euthanasia be like the verse that says to "love the your fellow person as yourself"?
Dear Mark,
When I began to write this response, my son came over to me and asked "Abbah, what are you writing?" "An answer regarding halachic problems with Euthenasia." "But Abbah, why would the rabbis write about the children in Asia??" (|:-)
You are correct in your assumption that we are commanded to love another person (even someone that starts out with a bad joke)- but, of course this care and concern for others must be expressed in a manner which is not contrary to Jewish law.
Jewish law forbids euthanasia in all forms, and is considered an act of homicide. The life of a person is not "his" - rather, it belongs to the One Who granted that life. It may be therefore be reclaimed only by the true Owner of that life. Despite one's noble intentions, an act of mercy-killing is flagrant intervention into a domain that transcends this world.
One source in the Chumash for this prohibition may be found the Book of Genesis:
"But your blood of your lives will I require; ...from the hand of man, from the hand of a person's brother, will I require the life of man."
The additional phrase "a person's brother" after having already stated "from the hand of man" is redundant. The author of the book HaKtav v'haKaballah explains that this verse refers to a prohibition against euthanasia. Although murder is the opposite of brotherly love, one might think that euthanasia is in fact a permitted expression of brotherly love. This verse imprints on our conscience that this particular form of "brotherly love" is nothing more than plain murder.
This does not mean that one should be lax about relieving the other person's pain. Elimination of suffering is a commendable goal. In fact, this may permit even "aggressive" treatment of pain to a degree that is not standard medical practice. For example, heroin use for treatment of pain may be acceptable according to Jewish law, in spite of the risk of addiction. It may be prohibited, however, by civil law.
There are other considerations which are beyond the scope of this column, such as passive/active intervention, prayer for a suffering person's death, and the definition and treatment of a moribund patient (goses). These and other related topics may be further studied of the texts in the accompanying list of sources.
Sources:
* "Judaism and Healing" - J. David Bleich, Ktav Publishing House.
* HaKtav v'haKaballah, ibid.
* Bereshis - 9:5.
* "The Jewish Attitude Towards Euthanasia," by Fred Posner, Jewish Bio-Ethics, by Fred Posner & J. David Bleich, Sanhedrin Press.
* Jewish Ethics and Halacha for Our Time, by Basil F. Herring, "Euthanasia", Ktav Publishing.
* Practical Medical Halacha - Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, "Euthanasia", Feldheim Publishing.
* Medical Halacha for Everyone - Abraham S. Abraham, "Euthanasia or Mercy Killing", Feldheim Publishing.
--- End quote ---
AryehYehudah:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2008, 07:23:28 PM ---AryehYehudi,
I understand your opinion and I dont disagree. We need to be more supportive of saving Jewish lives than saving the lives of our enemies. But...
Euthanasia is against the Torah...
muman613
PS: Yes, there is a difference between killing a person who is going to kill you on the battlefield and killing a patient who needs medical help.
PPS: I am sorry if it appears I picked on this post to complain. In general I am just like you in that I have made comments like this also. But I dont think that being cruel is a good way. So many mitzvot in Torah relate to not hating your neighbor and offering rebuke to them.
--- Quote ---http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/28/Q1/
Mark from Washington D.C. wrote:
I was wondering about Euthanasia and Jewish law. I know that it's wrong to murder, but this is an act of mercy, and wouldn't euthanasia be like the verse that says to "love the your fellow person as yourself"?
Dear Mark,
When I began to write this response, my son came over to me and asked "Abbah, what are you writing?" "An answer regarding halachic problems with Euthenasia." "But Abbah, why would the rabbis write about the children in Asia??" (|:-)
You are correct in your assumption that we are commanded to love another person (even someone that starts out with a bad joke)- but, of course this care and concern for others must be expressed in a manner which is not contrary to Jewish law.
Jewish law forbids euthanasia in all forms, and is considered an act of homicide. The life of a person is not "his" - rather, it belongs to the One Who granted that life. It may be therefore be reclaimed only by the true Owner of that life. Despite one's noble intentions, an act of mercy-killing is flagrant intervention into a domain that transcends this world.
One source in the Chumash for this prohibition may be found the Book of Genesis:
"But your blood of your lives will I require; ...from the hand of man, from the hand of a person's brother, will I require the life of man."
The additional phrase "a person's brother" after having already stated "from the hand of man" is redundant. The author of the book HaKtav v'haKaballah explains that this verse refers to a prohibition against euthanasia. Although murder is the opposite of brotherly love, one might think that euthanasia is in fact a permitted expression of brotherly love. This verse imprints on our conscience that this particular form of "brotherly love" is nothing more than plain murder.
This does not mean that one should be lax about relieving the other person's pain. Elimination of suffering is a commendable goal. In fact, this may permit even "aggressive" treatment of pain to a degree that is not standard medical practice. For example, heroin use for treatment of pain may be acceptable according to Jewish law, in spite of the risk of addiction. It may be prohibited, however, by civil law.
There are other considerations which are beyond the scope of this column, such as passive/active intervention, prayer for a suffering person's death, and the definition and treatment of a moribund patient (goses). These and other related topics may be further studied of the texts in the accompanying list of sources.
Sources:
* "Judaism and Healing" - J. David Bleich, Ktav Publishing House.
* HaKtav v'haKaballah, ibid.
* Bereshis - 9:5.
* "The Jewish Attitude Towards Euthanasia," by Fred Posner, Jewish Bio-Ethics, by Fred Posner & J. David Bleich, Sanhedrin Press.
* Jewish Ethics and Halacha for Our Time, by Basil F. Herring, "Euthanasia", Ktav Publishing.
* Practical Medical Halacha - Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, "Euthanasia", Feldheim Publishing.
* Medical Halacha for Everyone - Abraham S. Abraham, "Euthanasia or Mercy Killing", Feldheim Publishing.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
SO if Euthanasia is against Torah, I suppose Arabs can freely murder us and we can never give them a death penalty? In other words by us Euthanizing Adolf Eichmann, we Jews sinned against Torah? What about when Melech Shlomo had Adoniyah put to death for rebelling against G-d? Or when Melech David ordered for the death of the man who killed Melech Sha'ul. In Torah it also says eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a foot for a foot. Euthanizing someone is probably the most sound way to kill a person, whereas taking a sword of gun and blowing out their body organs and letting them die a slow, painful death is perhaps the worst. Our enemies would not spare us for a minute. Anyhow, I think it is a greater sin to let Jewish people suffer and go sick and to help Arab nazi terrorists than to Euthanize Arabs. I do not support Euthanizing arabs, but my point is, if money will be spent in our hospitals for medical procedures on Arabs or Muslims, the only one should be to finish them off; like lets say execute criminals who murdered innocent Jewish people. I will not let my money go to healing Arab terrorists so innocent Jews can die, I will go and kill those Arabs so they cannot create any more mischief. I am not a Talmud expert and do not know all the teachings, but I know from reading Tanach that us Jews succeeded when we punished our enemies. When G-d commanded the JEws to crush Yericho or Canaanites we did not spare anyone. Today, all we do is euthanize our own people and empower and embolden our enemis.
May Hashem forgive me if I sin here, but I am tired of our country/Israel healing Arabs and letting Jews suffer.
muman613:
--- Quote from: AryehYehudah on October 14, 2008, 08:52:32 PM ---
<snip>
SO if Euthanasia is against Torah, I suppose Arabs can freely murder us and we can never give them a death penalty? In other words by us Euthanizing Adolf Eichmann, we Jews sinned against Torah? What about when Melech Shlomo had Adoniyah put to death for rebelling against G-d? Or when Melech David ordered for the death of the man who killed Melech Sha'ul. In Torah it also says eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a foot for a foot. Euthanizing someone is probably the most sound way to kill a person, whereas taking a sword of gun and blowing out their body organs and letting them die a slow, painful death is perhaps the worst. Our enemies would not spare us for a minute. Anyhow, I think it is a greater sin to let Jewish people suffer and go sick and to help Arab nazi terrorists than to Euthanize Arabs. I do not support Euthanizing arabs, but my point is, if money will be spent in our hospitals for medical procedures on Arabs or Muslims, the only one should be to finish them off; like lets say execute criminals who murdered innocent Jewish people. I will not let my money go to healing Arab terrorists so innocent Jews can die, I will go and kill those Arabs so they cannot create any more mischief. I am not a Talmud expert and do not know all the teachings, but I know from reading Tanach that us Jews succeeded when we punished our enemies. When G-d commanded the JEws to crush Yericho or Canaanites we did not spare anyone. Today, all we do is euthanize our own people and empower and embolden our enemis.
May Hashem forgive me if I sin here, but I am tired of our country/Israel healing Arabs and letting Jews suffer.
--- End quote ---
AryehYehudah,
There is a difference between Euthanasia {Terminating the life of a medical patient} and destroying evil. I think we have mixed up the definitions here. I have said nothing about killing our enemies which is completely Torah sanctioned. I am sorry if I gave the impression that it is forbidden.
The issue is Euthansia terminating the life of a sick person. This is most certainly forbidden. But in all the cases you named the death was justified. Torah itself sanctions the death penalty on those who violate Shabbat along with those who violate sexual purity laws. Torah is very clear that Israel must destroy the evil within its midst. But the death penalty must also be dealt in only very specific circumstances. A Beit Din who executed 7 in 70 years was considered barbaric. Jewish law also makes it extremely difficult to condemn someone to death because of the requirement of having 3 witnesses and having to have rebuked the individual before he commited the offense.
When dealing with enemies of the Children of Israel we are dealing with another sack of beans. Anyone who rises up against us is an enemy and we have a mitzvah to destroy them. This is the mitzvah of remembering Amalek and destroying him. But the problem I have with this is that we really dont know who Amalek is today. Someone recently proclaimed that Amalek was a Bedouin tribe but this is not factual. According to our understanding the last known descendants of Amalek were of Persian persuasion {Haman of the Purim story}. Some Rabbis comment that Amalek is any spiritual force which rises against the Jewish nation. In this understanding it could be that the Islamic arabs are acting as Amalek.
I dont think we should Euthanize arabs seeking medical help at Israeli facilities. Either we should not treat them, or we should treat them. One must also consider the Torah source for judging people on what they are now, not what they will do in the future. This is learned from the story of Abraham, when he threw Ishmael and Hagar out of his house with only enough food for a day. Hashem saves Ishmael {our enemy} from death because he had done Teshuva despite the fact that Ishmael is the forefather of the Arabs.
It is a Jewish principle to give people the benefit of the doubt till they prove that they don't deserve such a benefit. Our enemies are not to be trusted and we must stand strong against them. But we also have our morals which make us better than they are. We cannot forsake our moral imperative because we are angry or tired.
I have only stated my opinions on this topic.
muman613
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