What is in a culture?

[Daleksfearme]

Over the years, there has been a debate over the relative merits of different cultures and why some cultures have advanced at a more rapid pace than other cultures. Since there are no "genetically inferior races", and in fact, a great deal of discussion over the existence of "Race" at all when applied to humans, what has lead to such a wide range of cultures around the world. And, why do some people appear to lag behind in technological and social issues even after being exposed to the benefits that advances  in technology and social thinking bring.

Of course, a great deal of cultural difference is based in the varied environments that people faced as we spread thoughout the world, and the need to use a wide range of techques to survive in very different places. But why would not people embrace positive change even after exposure to overwhelming proof that a better way exists.

A good example of this are the constant civil wars that are raging in Africa and other parts of the world. For all its current problems, America and other Democratic societies offer a stable, mostly safe ,democratic place to live. It is not as though the people fighting these terrible wars are not aware of the benefits of America etc. But they continue to replace one war lord after another in a constant sea of bloodshed.

Even within America, many do not choose to live in accordance with the concepts and laws that keep us safe and free, at least in a relative way, from violence and civil war. People choose instead to steal, to join gangs, to promote hate and violence etc.

Since there are no fundamental biological issues that do not allow for this understanding to occur, I will admit that I am somewhat at a loss to resolve this issue.

What is the source of this resistance to positive change? Why are some people so filled with hate and anger that they cant see beyond it? And how can righteous people help to solve this problem before it consumes us all?

Any ideas...

[Cato]

Over the years, there has been a debate over the relative merits of different cultures and why some cultures have advanced at a more rapid pace than other cultures. Since there are no "genetically inferior races", and in fact, a great deal of discussion over the existence of "Race" at all when applied to humans, what has lead to such a wide range of cultures around the world. And, why do some people appear to lag behind in technological and social issues even after being exposed to the benefits that advances  in technology and social thinking bring.

Of course, a great deal of cultural difference is based in the varied environments that people faced as we spread thoughout the world, and the need to use a wide range of techques to survive in very different places. But why would not people embrace positive change even after exposure to overwhelming proof that a better way exists.

A good example of this are the constant civil wars that are raging in Africa and other parts of the world. For all its current problems, America and other Democratic societies offer a stable, mostly safe ,democratic place to live. It is not as though the people fighting these terrible wars are not aware of the benefits of America etc. But they continue to replace one war lord after another in a constant sea of bloodshed.

Even within America, many do not choose to live in accordance with the concepts and laws that keep us safe and free, at least in a relative way, from violence and civil war. People choose instead to steal, to join gangs, to promote hate and violence etc.

Since there are no fundamental biological issues that do not allow for this understanding to occur, I will admit that I am somewhat at a loss to resolve this issue.

What is the source of this resistance to positive change? Why are some people so filled with hate and anger that they cant see beyond it? And how can righteous people help to solve this problem before it consumes us all?

Any ideas...

Yes, I have an idea. This is that the belief that different races are all of identical genetic abilities is a load of garbage. Plenty of honest anthropologists would agree with this, as would some excellent geneticists such as Jensen and Darlington. The evidence is overwhelming.

[Daleksfearme]

Over the years, there has been a debate over the relative merits of different cultures and why some cultures have advanced at a more rapid pace than other cultures. Since there are no "genetically inferior races", and in fact, a great deal of discussion over the existence of "Race" at all when applied to humans, what has lead to such a wide range of cultures around the world. And, why do some people appear to lag behind in technological and social issues even after being exposed to the benefits that advances in technology and social thinking bring.

Of course, a great deal of cultural difference is based in the varied environments that people faced as we spread thoughout the world, and the need to use a wide range of techques to survive in very different places. But why would not people embrace positive change even after exposure to overwhelming proof that a better way exists.

A good example of this are the constant civil wars that are raging in Africa and other parts of the world. For all its current problems, America and other Democratic societies offer a stable, mostly safe ,democratic place to live. It is not as though the people fighting these terrible wars are not aware of the benefits of America etc. But they continue to replace one war lord after another in a constant sea of bloodshed.

Even within America, many do not choose to live in accordance with the concepts and laws that keep us safe and free, at least in a relative way, from violence and civil war. People choose instead to steal, to join gangs, to promote hate and violence etc.

Since there are no fundamental biological issues that do not allow for this understanding to occur, I will admit that I am somewhat at a loss to resolve this issue.

What is the source of this resistance to positive change? Why are some people so filled with hate and anger that they cant see beyond it? And how can righteous people help to solve this problem before it consumes us all?

Any ideas...

Yes, I have an idea. This is that the belief that different races are all of identical abilities is a load of garbage. Plenty of honest anthropologists would agree with this, as would some excellent geneticists such as Jensen and Darlington.

Genetically all humans are 99.9 % the same, and have the ability to reproduce with any other human. So called racial differences are the result of random mutations that are caused by DNA copy error or as the result of environmental stress. These changes are pretty much a "wash" when compared across the world. There are some very well respected research facilities that have good web sites explaining this. Try "Cold Spring Harbor"

The neural architecture of the Human brain is the same regardless of "race" or ethnic group. Therefore i think that the question remains valid. For example Francis Collens, the Director of the Human Genome project is also a very devout Christian. He wrote a very good book titled "The Language of God" that explores some of the biological issues.

[muman613]

In my opinion:

All humans suffer from the struggle between good and bad. This is regardless of their culture and their upbringing. According to Jewish belief all of humanity has this struggle. I do not believe that culture is the only reason for people acting badly. I know of cases of people rising out of bad cultures because they can see that the culture elevates evil character traits. It is very good that people can rise out of bad cultures. In last weeks Torah portion we read about Abrahams servant Eliezer who was born under the curse on Kenani was able to elevate himself to the level of blessing.

I believe that all humans are made in Hashems image and thus they can redeem themselves. According to the religious understanding we all are descendants of Noach and all share the same fate.

muman613

[briann]

Daleksfearme... you are not noticing the elephant in the room.  An important reason that sub-saharan Africans have had no progress is their IQ.

Here a list of countries with IQ's below 75.  Some of these countries have mixed races (Ex:Arab/Negro), so its tough to pinpoint where or which tribe has the lowest IQ.... BUT!!!!  do you notice a pattern?

 Republic of the Congo   73
 Uganda   73
 Jamaica   72
 Kenya   72
 South Africa   72
 Sudan   72
 Tanzania   72
 Ghana   71
 Nigeria   67
 Guinea   66
 Zimbabwe   66
 Democratic Republic of the Congo   65
 Sierra Leone   64
 Ethiopia   63
 Equatorial Guinea   59

Also... this nonsence about race as an artificial construct is very easy to disprove with genetics... and if you want me to disprove it.... I will.

[Daleksfearme]

Daleksfearme... you are not noticing the elephant in the room.  An important reason that sub-saharan Africans have had no progress is their IQ.

Here a list of countries with IQ's below 75.  Some of these countries have mixed races (Ex:Arab/Negro), so its tough to pinpoint where or which tribe has the lowest IQ.... BUT!!!!  do you notice a pattern?

 Republic of the Congo   73
 Uganda   73
 Jamaica   72
 Kenya   72
 South Africa   72
 Sudan   72
 Tanzania   72
 Ghana   71
 Nigeria   67
 Guinea   66
 Zimbabwe   66
 Democratic Republic of the Congo   65
 Sierra Leone   64
 Ethiopia   63
 Equatorial Guinea   59

Also... this nonsence about race as an artificial construct is very easy to disprove with genetics... and if you want me to disprove it.... I will.

I would very interested in a debate on the Genetics of Race.

[t_h_j]

Daleksfearme... you are not noticing the elephant in the room.  An important reason that sub-saharan Africans have had no progress is their IQ.

Here a list of countries with IQ's below 75.  Some of these countries have mixed races (Ex:Arab/Negro), so its tough to pinpoint where or which tribe has the lowest IQ.... BUT!!!!  do you notice a pattern?

 Republic of the Congo   73
 Uganda   73
 Jamaica   72
 Kenya   72
 South Africa   72
 Sudan   72
 Tanzania   72
 Ghana   71
 Nigeria   67
 Guinea   66
 Zimbabwe   66
 Democratic Republic of the Congo   65
 Sierra Leone   64
 Ethiopia   63
 Equatorial Guinea   59

Also... this nonsence about race as an artificial construct is very easy to disprove with genetics... and if you want me to disprove it.... I will.

where did you get these figures from?

[Vito]

Daleksfearme... you are not noticing the elephant in the room.  An important reason that sub-saharan Africans have had no progress is their IQ.

Here a list of countries with IQ's below 75.  Some of these countries have mixed races (Ex:Arab/Negro), so its tough to pinpoint where or which tribe has the lowest IQ.... BUT!!!!  do you notice a pattern?

 Republic of the Congo   73
 Uganda   73
 Jamaica   72
 Kenya   72
 South Africa   72
 Sudan   72
 Tanzania   72
 Ghana   71
 Nigeria   67
 Guinea   66
 Zimbabwe   66
 Democratic Republic of the Congo   65
 Sierra Leone   64
 Ethiopia   63
 Equatorial Guinea   59

Also... this nonsence about race as an artificial construct is very easy to disprove with genetics... and if you want me to disprove it.... I will.

The only pattern I see is that the countries mentioned are countries which have been oppressed by the white man.

[Raulmarrio2000]

A low IQ means little inteligence, but they may not be violent. I think education plays an important role. And we must make a difference between discrimination and caution. When a dangerous disease has a high prevalence among one group, authorities check everyone from that group. And this is not discrimination. It's just safety. We know that, statistically, terrorism has a very high prevalence among Muslims, so each Muslim should be investigated. Muslim orgs should be perodically inspected and controlled everywhere, and Muslim immigrants should be rejected. That's not discrimination. It would be discrimination if we rejected them arguing that they are all terrorists. Not if we just say that there is a very high chance that they are.

[Sparky]

Daleksfearme... you are not noticing the elephant in the room.  An important reason that sub-saharan Africans have had no progress is their IQ.

Here a list of countries with IQ's below 75.  Some of these countries have mixed races (Ex:Arab/Negro), so its tough to pinpoint where or which tribe has the lowest IQ.... BUT!!!!  do you notice a pattern?

 Republic of the Congo   73
 Uganda   73
 Jamaica   72
 Kenya   72
 South Africa   72
 Sudan   72
 Tanzania   72
 Ghana   71
 Nigeria   67
 Guinea   66
 Zimbabwe   66
 Democratic Republic of the Congo   65
 Sierra Leone   64
 Ethiopia   63
 Equatorial Guinea   59

Also... this nonsence about race as an artificial construct is very easy to disprove with genetics... and if you want me to disprove it.... I will.

The only pattern I see is that the countries mentioned are countries which have been oppressed by the white man.

So oppression by the white man is now responsible for IQ's?  If that were true, Jews would have some of the lowest IQ's in the world, but just the opposite is true.  So much for that argument, unless you were just being fascitious.

I believe culture is a mix of genetic and environmental factors.  Many of these cultures were isolated and formed over thousands of years, so genetics certainly plays a role.  Intelligence, temperament, creativity, physical attributes, all have a genetic component. Many developed simply out of the necessity for the culture to survive.  I consider the Jews a race, and many of the cultural stereotypes (both good and bad) are also partly genetic.

[q_q_]

Daleksfearme... you are not noticing the elephant in the room.  An important reason that sub-saharan Africans have had no progress is their IQ.

Here a list of countries with IQ's below 75.  Some of these countries have mixed races (Ex:Arab/Negro), so its tough to pinpoint where or which tribe has the lowest IQ.... BUT!!!!  do you notice a pattern?

 Republic of the Congo   73
 Uganda   73
 Jamaica   72
 Kenya   72
 South Africa   72
 Sudan   72
 Tanzania   72
 Ghana   71
 Nigeria   67
 Guinea   66
 Zimbabwe   66
 Democratic Republic of the Congo   65
 Sierra Leone   64
 Ethiopia   63
 Equatorial Guinea   59

Also... this nonsence about race as an artificial construct is very easy to disprove with genetics... and if you want me to disprove it.... I will.

where did you get these figures from?

There is a book called "IQ and the Wealth Of Nations". It would have figures like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

[muman613]

<snip>
The only pattern I see is that the countries mentioned are countries which have been oppressed by the white man.

your being facetious here, aren't you?

muman613

[Rubystars]

All this nonsense about race being a social construct rather than a biological reality started with a left winger self-hater named Franz Boas. He promoted absolutely ridiculous ideas such as the idea that the savages had just as good of a society as the modern, educated people.

[New Yorker]

Race has everything to do with it. Introduce basic technology to a race of intelligent people, like the Japanese, let it perculate for 100 years, and you get modern Tokyo, leading edge technology and advancement, do the same thing in Africa, or Arabia, and you get nothing, primitives who do nothing with it, might as well hand off ideas and knowledge to chimpanzees, you'll get the same result.

[Rubystars]

Race has everything to do with it. Introduce basic technology to a race of intelligent people, like the Japanese, let it perculate for 100 years, and you get modern Tokyo, leading edge technology and advancement, do the same thing in Africa, or Arabia, and you get nothing, primitives who do nothing with it, might as well hand off ideas and knowledge to chimpanzees, you'll get the same result.

The Khoisan are still crafting spears as their most advanced technology. 

[Daleksfearme]

A low IQ means little inteligence, but they may not be violent. I think education plays an important role. And we must make a difference between discrimination and caution. When a dangerous disease has a high prevalence among one group, authorities check everyone from that group. And this is not discrimination. It's just safety. We know that, statistically, terrorism has a very high prevalence among Muslims, so each Muslim should be investigated. Muslim orgs should be perodically inspected and controlled everywhere, and Muslim immigrants should be rejected. That's not discrimination. It would be discrimination if we rejected them arguing that they are all terrorists. Not if we just say that there is a very high chance that they are.

I am not sure that IQ tests are a good measure of overall intelligence. The studies that I have seen on this question seem to be contradictory at best. I do think that education is a very important tool in helping people to improve their lives.

I agree that the investigation of Muslims is not a form of discrimination. They did bring it on themselves by not controlling the actions of their own members.

[Rubystars]

There's a lot of biased studies about IQ tests to try to make blacks look less stupid.

[Daleksfearme]

Race has everything to do with it. Introduce basic technology to a race of intelligent people, like the Japanese, let it perculate for 100 years, and you get modern Tokyo, leading edge technology and advancement, do the same thing in Africa, or Arabia, and you get nothing, primitives who do nothing with it, might as well hand off ideas and knowledge to chimpanzees, you'll get the same result.

The Khoisan are still crafting spears as their most advanced technology. 

One has to wonder if they want or need so called advanced tech. Are they family oriented, Peaceful, concerned about their environment? etc. I think that these traits are the true earmarks of an advanced culture. look at what happened at Wal Mart on Friday. People took the hinges off the doors of the store and pushed in, crushing a person to death in the haste to get a good deal on the "perfect gift". These same people were outraged when the store was closed soon after so the police could investagate. And what about Israel, where the army is hurting children and pulling down the houses of peace loving people simply because they wanted to live quietly on a hilltop?

Perhaps we are not as advanced as we think...

[Rubystars]

The "people" at Wal-mart were human by legal definition only. Israel is run by insane leftists, not civilized people like those on the hilltops.

[muman613]

Daleksfearme,

We are most certainly more advanced technologically than our forefathers. The question I think you are asking is if we are more advanced 'spiritually'... I agree that humanity has a long way to go to advance to the next level spiritually. But even so, I think our culture and religion is advanced beyond many of the other primative cultures.

We sure have a long way to go... But don't give up hope...

[q_q_]

One has to wonder if they want or need so called advanced tech. Are they family oriented, Peaceful, concerned about their environment? etc. <snip>

You really changed the subject there. It was IQ.. Not what makes for a great society.

Your whole argument and its suggestions are rather silly.. 

Look, if you really think that they(primitive african tribes?) are family-oriented, peaceful, concerned about the environment..   And that advanced technology(and medicine) don't matter.   Then go live with them!

[muman613]

One has to wonder if they want or need so called advanced tech. Are they family oriented, Peaceful, concerned about their environment? etc. <snip>

You really changed the subject there. It was IQ.. Not what makes for a great society.

Your whole argument and its suggestions are rather silly.. 

Look, if you really think that they(primitive african tribes?) are family-oriented, peaceful, concerned about the environment..   And that advanced technology(and medicine) don't matter.   Then go live with them!

My thoughts also... If you think the primitive people who live in the mud are peaceful and advanced, go live with them...

[Daleksfearme]

One has to wonder if they want or need so called advanced tech. Are they family oriented, Peaceful, concerned about their environment? etc. <snip>

You really changed the subject there. It was IQ.. Not what makes for a great society.

Your whole argument and its suggestions are rather silly.. 

Look, if you really think that they(primitive african tribes?) are family-oriented, peaceful, concerned about the environment..   And that advanced technology(and medicine) don't matter.   Then go live with them!

Basically, In the minds of alot of scientists and social workers etc., IQ tests have been almost totally invalidated as a means to measure intelligence. Not enough was known about the structure and function of the brain when these tests were first developed. There is a very good book by Eric Kandel titled "In Search of Memory" detailing how the current understanding of brain structure and function was developed. A good example of this was Einstein, who did somewhat poorly on many of his tests, as he did not like his professors or the school seetings in that he found himself. More recently, Hawkings did not do overly well on many of his tests and really did not apply himself to his studies until he got very sick.

Many cultures over the years have demonstrated a somewhat lopsided rate of advancement when comparing their social value structure to their level of tech. I don't think the two are as connected as some people would think.

I don't think that I said that modern tech and medicine is not good, of course it is. Many , many people have had their lives improved by advances in medicine etc. I do agree that the topic did get a bit away from its origanal premise.
I am curious as to why some people will not embrace the advantages offered by modern culture while others embrace it quickly. Although I had occasionally thought about this in the past, I got a bit of a spark from Chiam's statement in the "Ask JTF" segment of last week when he said that he did not think that any group of people was "genetically inferior".

I am sorry that you thought this topic was silly...I think that one of the great things that life has to offer, is that that different people enjoy debating different things.

[q_q_]

One has to wonder if they want or need so called advanced tech. Are they family oriented, Peaceful, concerned about their environment? etc. <snip>

You really changed the subject there. It was IQ.. Not what makes for a great society.

Your whole argument and its suggestions are rather silly.. 

Look, if you really think that they(primitive african tribes?) are family-oriented, peaceful, concerned about the environment..   And that advanced technology(and medicine) don't matter.   Then go live with them!

Basically, In the minds of alot of scientists and social workers etc., IQ tests have been almost totally invalidated as a means to measure intelligence. Not enough was known about the structure and function of the brain when these tests were first developed. There is a very good book by Eric Kandel titled "In Search of Memory" detailing how the current understanding of brain structure and function was developed.

Look, I can also see many faults with IQ tests..

But they're not invalid..

A low score usually means some aspect of their intelligence is really bad, so bad that it could burden their whole thinking or bring down their whole overall mark.

Einstein if he did badly.. that is not suprising. He had terrible learning difficulties.. He had trouble learning the letters of the alphabet.  I recall reading he had to do it through touch.  He was dyslexic.

The test is not invalid.

A high score would likely mean that some aspect of their intelligence is very high, and not getting pulled down. Their mind isn't too faulty, and some parts are excellent.
 
For the hell of it, here are a few faults that I can see..

I think the whole concept of having a "measure" for intelligence, in the sense of one number showing intelligence, is deeply flawed.   Pretty much any method is going to be very flawed.

Another problem with IQ tests is they test "Thinking on your feet" and not slower deeper processes of thought.

And there's the issue of short term memory.. working with/against intelligence..
And long term memory not being tested by the IQ test.
So no real consistency of whether they are testing memory of not..

A good example of this was Einstein, who did somewhat poorly on many of his tests, as he did not like his professors or the school seetings in that he found himself. More recently, Hawkings did not do overly well on many of his tests and really did not apply himself to his studies until he got very sick.

Many cultures over the years have demonstrated a somewhat lopsided rate of advancement when comparing their social value structure to their level of tech. I don't think the two are as connected as some people would think.

I don't think that I said that modern tech and medicine is not good, of course it is. Many , many people have had their lives improved by advances in medicine etc. I do agree that the topic did get a bit away from its origanal premise.
I am curious as to why some people will not embrace the advantages offered by modern culture while others embrace it quickly. Although I had occasionally thought about this in the past, I got a bit of a spark from Chiam's statement in the "Ask JTF" segment of last week when he said that he did not think that any group of people was "genetically inferior".

I am sorry that you thought this topic was silly...I think that one of the great things that life has to offer, is that that different people enjoy debating different things.

I don't think anybody can really disagree with most of what you said there.. alot of it fairly obvious..

But you miss the fairly obvious genetic connections to behaviour.

Forget race. Or colour or whatever.

Have you never seen families that share
 A physical characteristic?
 A behavioural characteristic?

Or how about within a family, 2 brothers, one good, one bad. Pretty much the same upbringing, same school. Do you think that's just environmental?

You are underestimating the power of genetics, and overestimating the power of the environment.

Imagine somebody that is really rubbish at something. Given a good environment for him to develop that skill, he probably won't get that far.
Whereas somebody that is really good at it, could do it with his hands tied behind his back.
People are born with talents and weaknesses..  Sometimes .. that neither of their parents have. But, they still came from his parents. Somehow.

intelligent people are intelligent not just because of the way they were brought up. Many were brought up the same, but did not do nearly as well, or have it nearly as easily.  Many are good at something and have seen how they find it easy and others struggle. Similarly , they've been bad at something and seen it from the other position. Nothing to do with upbringing. It's from talents and weaknesses that they were born with. It's in their genetics.

I'm really just stating the obvious here.

[Sparky]

I got a bit of a spark from Chiam's statement in the "Ask JTF" segment of last week when he said that he did not think that any group of people was "genetically inferior".

You do bring up a good point here. You are correct in that Chaim doesn't believe culture has a genetic component.  He believes that cultural characteristics are a matter of choice, not genetics.  Personally, this is one area where I disagree with him.