Confronting Evil

[Daleksfearme]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

[zachor_ve_kavod]

Basically, if I understand you, you are asking if fighting evil makes us "sink to their level".  Is that what you are asking?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

 Their are many comments on that episode. But one of them is- He told the angels not to rejoice (and some say G-d was talking about the Jews being in distress crossing, and not about the Egyptians drowning) , and NOT to Israel. On the contrary we celebrate Pessach where we mention it. Also we sing Az Yashir every morning.

[Daleksfearme]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

 Their are many comments on that episode. But one of them is- He told the angels not to rejoice (and some say G-d was talking about the Jews being in distress crossing, and not about the Egyptians drowning) , and NOT to Israel. On the contrary we celebrate Pessach where we mention it. Also we sing Az Yashir every morning.

Do you have any sources for this. I would love to see them. I never had heard that view expressed in Hebrew school as a child or by my Rabbi as an adult.

Thank You

[Rubystars]

If someone is truly your enemy, such as the Muslims who are killing people, you should treat them as such and not worry about them. Let God sort them out and just fight your enemy with everything you have.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

 Their are many comments on that episode. But one of them is- He told the angels not to rejoice (and some say G-d was talking about the Jews being in distress crossing, and not about the Egyptians drowning) , and NOT to Israel. On the contrary we celebrate Pessach where we mention it. Also we sing Az Yashir every morning.

Do you have any sources for this. I would love to see them. I never had heard that view expressed in Hebrew school as a child or by my Rabbi as an adult.

Thank You

 I remember from Or'Harayon where the Rav brings from Hazal.
  Anyway it probably wasn't necessary or the kids might not understand correctly at that age to teach them about vengence and celebrating with the fall of the wicked (and revenge). One might then interpret it the wrong way and the kids could be happy and cause revenge to their fellow Jewish kids, etc (meaning at that age one might be able to properly differentiate what is right and wrong). OR it could be that they didn't have that Torah knowledge and also Hashkafa to say what Hazal said and Rav Kahane brought down in his Sefer  (please no negative lashon Hara to follow after this post).

[muman613]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

DaleksFearMe,

Here is the Song which the Israelites sang at the sea, from our Song at the Sea:

30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea-shore.  31 And Israel saw the great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared the LORD; and they believed in the LORD, and in His servant Moses.

Then Moses and the entire congregation sang this Song of Praise to G-d for their miraculous rescue.

1."I will sing unto the Lord, for He is highly exulted; The horse and its rider has He thrown into the sea.

2. The Lord is -my strength and song, And He is become my salvation; This is my G-d and I will glorify Him; MY father's G-d, and I will exalt Him. The Lord is the lord of war, The Lord is His name.

3. Pharaoh's chariots and his host has He cast into the sea. And his chosen captains are sunk in the Red Sea. The deeps cover them they went down into the depths like a stone.

4. Your right hand, 0 Lord, is glorious in power, Your right hand, 0 Lord, dashes in pieces the enemy.

5. And in the greatness of Your excellency You overthrow them that rise up against Thee; You send forth Your wrath; it consumes them as stubble.

6 And with the blast of Your nostrils the waters were piled up, the floods stood upright as a heap; The deeps were congealed in the heart of the sea.

7. The enemy said: I will Pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; My lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.'

8. You did blow Your wind, the sea covered them. They sank as lead in the mighty waters.

9. Who is like unto Thee, 0 Lord, among the mighty? Who is like -unto Thee, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders? You stretch out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them.

10. You in Your love have led the people that You have redeemed; You lost guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation.

11. The Peoples have heard, they trembled; Pangs have taken hold on the inhabitants of Philistia. Then were the chiefs of Edom affrighted; The mighty men of Moab, trembling taketh hold upon them; All the inhabitants of Canaan are melted away.

12. Terror and dread falleth upon them. By the greatness of Your arm they are as still as a stone; Till Your people pass over, 0 Lord, Till the people Pass aver that You have gotten. You bringest them in, and plantest them in the mountain of Your inheritance. The place, 0 Lord, which You have made for Thee to dwell in, The sanctuary, 0 Lord, which Your hands have established. The Lord shall reign for ever and ever."

As the last words of the song died away, Miriam seized her timbrel, and followed by a multitude of Hebrew maidens and women, went forth in procession dancand proclaiming:

"Sing again to the Lord, for He is gloriously exalted; The horse and its rider has He thrown into the sea."

[q_q_]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

This is a midrash.  Relevant to Orthodox jews of course..

The jewish people sung over how G-d destroyed the egyptians. It's in our daily prayers(Az Yashir).  Exodus 15:1....  

Anyhow, this will be of interest.


in "Spilling out drops of wine at the Seder ", Lisa Liel wrote,

"What is the meaning of 'and they did not draw near one to the other
all the night' (Exodus 14:20)? At that time, the ministring angels
wanted to sing praises before the Holy One, Blessed be He. The Holy
One, Blessed be He, said to them: 'The work of My hands is drowning
in the sea, and you're singing praises before Me?'"


R' Elazar said: "He doesn't rejoice, but He causes others to
rejoice. We see this clearly when it says 'He will cause you to
rejoice' (Deuteronomy 28:63), rather than 'He will rejoice'. We see
it from that."


The Gemara here states, explicitly that *only* Hashem's joy is
diminished. Why? Because the Egyptians are the work of His
hands. They are not the work of *our* hands. And the angels are
merely aspects of Hashem Himself, as we know. The verse "binfol
oyivcha al tismach" applies to the Egyptians here *only* for Hashem
Himself. In the same way that we should not rejoice over the
downfall of a fellow Jew, so too does Hashem restrain Himself
(kavayachol) from rejoicing over the downfall of His creations.


also, Lisa wrote

"None of these sources say that *we* are to have compassion on the
Egyptians. Only that Hashem did. "


--
"The truth about Egyptians drowning", Lisa wrote
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish.moderated/browse_frm/thread/2eba0c4b9c00074d/f52019ca5c8b955a?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=lisa+gloat#f52019ca5c8b955a

It says "Don't rejoice over
the downfall of your enemy".  If that verse was applicable to how *we*
are supposed to react to the Egyptians drowning (rather than how Hashem
reacted, and how we display sensitivity to Him), we wouldn't say Hallel
at *all* on that day.  We wouldn't sing Az Yashir and proclaim with a
second and triumphant tune "They have sunken like lead in mighty
waters!"  We wouldn't spend a chunk of the seder on a game of
oneupmanship to see who can read the account with the Egyptians
suffering more and more plagues.  We don't just celebrate; we gloat.
And yet, we wouldn't be allowed to even celebrate a little if that
verse applied to *us*.  It doesn't.  Those who bring it aren't applying
it to us, either.

[Daleksfearme]

I posted this question in the Ask JTF section as well, but would like to hear what advice others have as well.

The recent attack in India and against the Settlers in Israel have lead to a bit of an internal dilemma for me. On the one hand, I would like to see justice served by destroying those people who would take Innocent loves. On the other hand, I remember G-ds admonishment to the angels not to sing as the Egyptians drown in the Red Sea because they too were his children. How do righteous people combat evil and hate without becoming evil and hateful ourselves?  I have seen my own anger bleed through into other areas of my life after just seeing the news about these hideous attacks.  I pray and meditate on this which ,of course, helps. but it is still a struggle at times to honer G-Ds command to not rejoice completely in the defeat of those who wish to harm others.

Any advice?

This is a midrash.  Relevant to Orthodox jews of course..

The jewish people sung over how G-d destroyed the egyptians. It's in our daily prayers(Az Yashir).  Exodus 15:1....  

Anyhow, this will be of interest.


in "Spilling out drops of wine at the Seder ", Lisa Liel wrote,

"What is the meaning of 'and they did not draw near one to the other
all the night' (Exodus 14:20)? At that time, the ministring angels
wanted to sing praises before the Holy One, Blessed be He. The Holy
One, Blessed be He, said to them: 'The work of My hands is drowning
in the sea, and you're singing praises before Me?'"


R' Elazar said: "He doesn't rejoice, but He causes others to
rejoice. We see this clearly when it says 'He will cause you to
rejoice' (Deuteronomy 28:63), rather than 'He will rejoice'. We see
it from that."


The Gemara here states, explicitly that *only* Hashem's joy is
diminished. Why? Because the Egyptians are the work of His
hands. They are not the work of *our* hands. And the angels are
merely aspects of Hashem Himself, as we know. The verse "binfol
oyivcha al tismach" applies to the Egyptians here *only* for Hashem
Himself. In the same way that we should not rejoice over the
downfall of a fellow Jew, so too does Hashem restrain Himself
(kavayachol) from rejoicing over the downfall of His creations.


also, Lisa wrote

"None of these sources say that *we* are to have compassion on the
Egyptians. Only that Hashem did. "


--
"The truth about Egyptians drowning", Lisa wrote
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish.moderated/browse_frm/thread/2eba0c4b9c00074d/f52019ca5c8b955a?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=lisa+gloat#f52019ca5c8b955a

It says "Don't rejoice over
the downfall of your enemy".  If that verse was applicable to how *we*
are supposed to react to the Egyptians drowning (rather than how Hashem
reacted, and how we display sensitivity to Him), we wouldn't say Hallel
at *all* on that day.  We wouldn't sing Az Yashir and proclaim with a
second and triumphant tune "They have sunken like lead in mighty
waters!"  We wouldn't spend a chunk of the seder on a game of
oneupmanship to see who can read the account with the Egyptians
suffering more and more plagues.  We don't just celebrate; we gloat.
And yet, we wouldn't be allowed to even celebrate a little if that
verse applied to *us*.  It doesn't.  Those who bring it aren't applying
it to us, either.

Thank you for this...It is very interesting to reflect on. I was raised in a conservative Jewish home, but have been working to connect more completely with being Jewish. It has been a slow but fufilling path.

[Debbie Shafer]

Glad you posted your feelings on evil.  We know what is right and wrong, and praying for guidance.  I believe eventually those who are evil will fall, and the record of evil actions is recorded.  Not one thing will be forgotten in God's eyes.

Ephesians 6: 10-20 is the central teaching in the entire New Testament on spiritual warfare, and it begins with two commands: "Be strong in the Lord," and, "Put on the full armor of God." There are definite things that will come to pass before the coming of Christ.

Many in my church are recognizing the quickness of events.  This country never would have elected a Muslim.  The economy, the debt by so many businesses, the oil situation, the height of immorality, Israel's chaos, Iran's treachery.  This all has an ominous tone to it.  Plus so many scoffers at all these signs, just like in the days before the Great Flood.

[Rubystars]

Sometimes confronting evil means going against the grain of people who mean well but don't know what they're doing is wrong.

[AsheDina]

 
  We are now in a terrible time where good is evil, and evil is good. If people DONT KNOW HaShem, they ARE in TROUBLE.

[Daleksfearme]

Sometimes confronting evil means going against the grain of people who mean well but don't know what they're doing is wrong.

I think that this is the hardest thing to do. It is easy to point to the events of 9/11 and show the evil. It is much harder to debate the land for peace mentality , for example,, as many of the people I know who favor that idea are really not bad on a personal level. They just don't seem to know any better, or are taken in by the allure of "peace" that the media shows and lose sight of the big picture.

Sometimes the good are fooled by evil.

[Daleksfearme]

Glad you posted your feelings on evil.  We know what is right and wrong, and praying for guidance.  I believe eventually those who are evil will fall, and the record of evil actions is recorded.  Not one thing will be forgotten in G-d's eyes.

Ephesians 6: 10-20 is the central teaching in the entire New Testament on spiritual warfare, and it begins with two commands: "Be strong in the Lord," and, "Put on the full armor of G-d." There are definite things that will come to pass before the coming of Christ.

Many in my church are recognizing the quickness of events.  This country never would have elected a Muslim.  The economy, the debt by so many businesses, the oil situation, the height of immorality, Israel's chaos, Iran's treachery.  This all has an ominous tone to it.  Plus so many scoffers at all these signs, just like in the days before the Great Flood.

I'm glad you enjoyed the post. Its very interesting how the belief that all our actions are recorded is so universal. I have a number of friends who are Buddhist, who are very committed to the idea of Karma. That your past action determines your future fate. The somewhat scary part is that this applies to nations as well as to individuals. So we in America could be in big trouble.

Out of sheer curiosity, would you say that the view of karma is similar to the story of Jesus,on seeing a man enter the woods  stated that this man will be dead today. Later when this man came back alive, Jesus stated that "this man has done something that changed his fate." I'm Jewish, so not as familiar with the New Testament, so if I got the story wrong, I apologize.

[Rubystars]

Sometimes confronting evil means going against the grain of people who mean well but don't know what they're doing is wrong.

I think that this is the hardest thing to do. It is easy to point to the events of 9/11 and show the evil. It is much harder to debate the land for peace mentality , for example,, as many of the people I know who favor that idea are really not bad on a personal level. They just don't seem to know any better, or are taken in by the allure of "peace" that the media shows and lose sight of the big picture.

Sometimes the good are fooled by evil.

Yes and what confuses the matter is that the ones who are truly anti-Zionist, like Sharon, went around calling themselves Zionist. Many of the organizations that are supposed to be pro-Jewish, like the Jewish establishment organizations here in the USA, are often the most anti-Semitic in nature.

Sometimes you have to look past someone smiling and saying they're your friend to see an enemy there.