Author Topic: A new youtube video about the holy Reb Meir's words-may Hashem avenge his blood  (Read 5272 times)

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Offline Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal

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I think you guys will like this.  I'm always open to comments/criticism.

It discusses the "every Jew with a .22," line often quoted as a way
to chus v'shalom make fun of this holy martyr.

Enjoy and may G-d Almighty bless us each and everyone of you in
all that you do.

Offline Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal

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See, if you all reply at once with feedback, it might not help.

But seriously, any reason for the lack of interest?  Have I been
blacklisted here?

Offline DownwithIslam

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Of course not, I love Lubavitcher chasidim. I would of made a comment on your video but yo disabled that feature on youtube.
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Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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See, if you all reply at once with feedback, it might not help.

But seriously, any reason for the lack of interest?  Have I been
blacklisted here?

 I actually checked out some of your video's earlier (including this one) and they are good. It's too bad we cant comment on the video's though.

  Anyway DWI- I also thought he was Chabad, but I found out today he is not. He follows Breslev now.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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I thought it was a very interesting, well articulated video.

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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You want honesty? I didn't like the video.

For you to say that the story of Shimon and Levi and the rape of Dinah was "one of the reasons people don't trust Jews", and for you to criticize Shimon and Levi for their heroic action, is atrocious.

You mean when the Germans threw 6 million Jews into the ovens and gas chambers, they were thinking of Shimon and Levi?

And you say that we should fight a "fair war" against those who defended the vicious rape of Dinah? Was this vicious rapist "fair" when he anally raped a defenseless Jewish woman? Were the inhabitants of the city "fair" when they shielded and defended this beast who was their prince?

Your Westernized view of being "fair" to vicious enemies is not a Jewish concept.

Your statement that we Jews have changed since then, so we should not be held responsible for what you kept referring to as the supposedly "cruel" behavior in the Torah was also atrocious. Jews certainly have changed and that is our problem! What a shame that Jews today do not kill the Arabs who have raped so many Jewish women in Israel.

Your statement that the residents of Shchem could have been our spiritual brothers if Shimon and Levi had not avenged the brutal anal rape of their sister is absurd. Hashem made it clear that He did not want us to have any covenants with the inhabitants of the land, because they were hopelessly evil. When Avraham agreed to a temporary covenant, Hashem punished Avraham with the test of the akedah (the commandment to sacrifice his son Yitzchak). And when the Jews did not destroy their enemies as Hashem commanded, that also led to the some of the most painful heavenly punishments in Jewish history.

Stop being defensive and stop being apologetic! You are causing both anti-Semitism and self-hatred by making it sound as if the Torah is so "cruel".

Let the whole world know that if anyone dares to rape a daughter of Israel, there will be bloody vengence. Both the rapist and his defenders deserve to be killed.

You say that this militant Torah view bothers your friends on the internet. Maybe so.

But as the greatest Jewish leader in modern history often said: "We would rather have an Israel that the whole world hates, than an Auschwitz that the whole world loves."
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:43:22 PM by Chaim Ben Pesach »

Offline DownwithIslam

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See, if you all reply at once with feedback, it might not help.

But seriously, any reason for the lack of interest?  Have I been
blacklisted here?

 I actually checked out some of your video's earlier (including this one) and they are good. It's too bad we cant comment on the video's though.

  Anyway DWI- I also thought he was Chabad, but I found out today he is not. He follows Breslev now.

Oh well, I though he was Chabad because he had 770 in his youtube name. You mean he switched from Chabad to Breslov? I think its always best if people are stable and don't switch from group to group.
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Offline q_q_

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Ronen, I am not watching the video, I can see what you said from what Chaim wrote. (previous posts from others were useless)

sadly this is yet another time when people posted replies and they either didn't have the intelligence to understand the video, or didn't watch it, and they didn't say they didn't watch it, so it looked like they don't disagree with it(some even said they liked it). It was left to others to watch it, and Chaim did. I'm sure he has more important things to do.  Now that he has watched it, and posted about it, we don't need to watch it.  Those that posted before Chaim were pathetic..

Ronen, it is an insult to quote rabbi meir kahane while stating such an anti-kahanist message.

Here is what rabbi binyamin kahane wrote about the shimon levi dina incident
http://kahane.org/Parasha/8.html
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 09:55:48 AM by q_q_ »

Offline DownwithIslam

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Ronen, I am not watching the video, I can see what you said from what Chaim wrote. (previous posts from others were useless)

sadly this is yet another time when people posted replies and they either didn't have the intelligence to understand the video, or didn't watch it, and they didn't say they didn't watch it, so it looked like they don't disagree with it(some even said they liked it). It was left to others to watch it, and Chaim did. I'm sure he has more important things to do.  Now that he has watched it, and posted about it, we don't need to watch it.  Those that posted before Chaim were pathetic..

Ronen, it is an insult to quote rabbi meir kahane while stating such an anti-kahanist message.

Here is what rabbi binyamin kahane wrote about the shimon levi dina incident
http://kahane.org/Parasha/8.html
If you notice, I never commented on the video. In the post before mine, Ronen simply asked if he was blacklisted. I responded by telling him of course he wasn't and that I like Lubavitchers.(I was under the impression that he was a Lubavitcher) I never said I approved of his video, I simply don't think he should be blacklisted. He needs constructive criticism(which I did not provide)

I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline DownwithIslam

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Besides Q_Q, I never said I had lots of Torah knowledge to argue with him anyways. Obviously Chaim took care of that dept.
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Offline muman613

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Shalom,

I am inclined to give Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal the benefit of the doubt. It is not worthwhile to alienate him because I believe he is basically on our side. I think he has misunderstood what the moral of the story of Dinahs rape by Schem... I have reproduced an article from http://www.torah.org which explains this story:


http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5768/vayishlach.html
Shim'on and Levi, the Brothers of Dinah

By Yitzchak Etshalom

I

"CURSED BE THEIR WRATH"

Chapter 34 of Sefer B'resheet records what is undoubtedly one of the most violent and morally troubling chapters in Biblical history. Here is a brief recap of the events which transpired in Sh'khem:

The family of Ya'akov enters the city of Sh'khem and Dinah, the one sister among eleven brothers, is forcibly taken by Sh'khem, the prince of the city-state after which he is named. Sh'khem rapes her and, through the august agency of his father, appeals to her brothers to allow her to become his proper wife. The brothers speak b'Mirmah (deceitfully? cunningly?) with Sh'khem and Hamor, his father, and convince them that the only way for Dinah to marry Sh'khem is if the prince and all of his townsfolk become circumcised. The townsfolk are convinced to undergo this painful operation - evidently motivated by economic gain (vv. 21-24). On the third day, with all the males in pain, Shim'on and Levi kill all of the males in town, after which the brothers pillage the town and take their sister back to safety. Ya'akov chastises them for their actions, which they defend on grounds of concern for their sister's honor.

As mentioned, this narrative is troubling on many levels. To paraphrase a contemporary writer, whereas Ya'akov's children had a golden opportunity to begin to fulfill their mission of teaching the world "the way of Hashem, to do justice and judgment;" (B'resheet 18:19), they squandered this chance and sullied their reputation in the eyes of the neighboring peoples by acting both deceitfully and violently, destroying an entire city in response to a crime committed by one citizen - albeit the prince. Avraham's protests of "will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" (ibid. v. 23) seem to have been inverted by his elect progeny. In addition, if we look further into the Torah, we see that rape of an unmarried woman is not considered a capital crime - rather it is a case of criminal assault (along with a fine, represented here by the word Mohar). How could Shim'on and Levi act in this manner?

Conventional understanding holds that Ya'akov's chastisement was directed against all of their actions - the deceit, the polis-cide and the pillage of the town. We are even more confident that Ya'akov was violently opposed to their behavior when we read of his deathbed charge, given to them nearly fifty years later in Egypt:

Shim'on and Levi are brothers; instruments of cruelty are their swords. O my soul, do not come into their council; to their assembly, let my honor not be united; for in their anger they slew a man, and in their wanton will they lamed an ox. Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel; I will divide them in Ya'akov, and scatter them in Yisra'el. (B'resheet 49:5-7)

If we look into the analyses of the Rishonim, we will find that a much more complex picture unfolds before us; indeed, a careful read of both texts (Chapters 34 and 49) provides us with ample reason to reexamine our assessment of the behavior of Shim'on and Levi in Sh'khem. Due to space limitations, we will limit our reassessment of "the tragedy in Sh'khem" to information which can be inferred from the text itself. Interested readers are encouraged to look at the comments of the Rishonim through Ch. 34 (notably the Ramban at 34:13; note his critique of Rambam's explanation).

II

"HAKH'ZONAH...?"

There are several indications that Ya'akov was not opposed - in principle - to the decision (and its implementation) taken by Shim'on and Levi. In addition, we have several textual indications that the Torah itself gives their approach the stamp of approval.

First of all, let's look at Ya'akov's deathbed charge to these two brothers:

"... for in their anger they slew a man, and in their wanton will they lamed an ox..."

Although there are opinions in the Midrash which interpret this statement as a reference to Sh'khem, simple "P'shat" does not support this read. How could Ya'akov be referring to the death of dozens (or hundreds) of people as "they slew a man"? In addition, what is the reference to an "ox" here?

There is one statement in the Midrash which addresses this problem - but the solution offered there is hardly a critique of the brothers' behavior:

"Did they only slay one man? Doesn't Scripture state: 'they slew all the males'? Rather, they were only considered by haKadosh Barukh Hu as one person." (B'resheet Rabbah 99:6) In other words, if this is a reference to the slaying of the entire male population of Sh'khem, it isn't as grievous as all that, as their lives weren't worth much in the eyes of G-d (see the additional prooftexts brought in that selection).

Again, the straightforward reading is a reference to the killing of one man and an ox. We will soon discover who these might be.

"...Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel..."

Note that Ya'akov does not curse their actions - rather, he curses their anger (or so it seems - but see the first comment of Hizkuni to 49:7.). If he were morally opposed to their behavior in Sh'khem, doesn't the actual slaying and pillage pale in significance next to their anger? Why mention that here?

[There is one other problem here, one which is beyond the scope of this shiur. Subsequent to Ya'akov's deathbed charge to his sons, the Torah states:

"All these are the twelve tribes of Israel; and this is it what their father spoke to them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them." (49:28) How can we understand Ya'akov's words to Shim'on and Levi - along with his harsh words for Re'uven - as part of a "blessing"? Perhaps we will take this up when we get to Parashat VaY'chi.]

Indeed, one comment in the Midrash Rabbah contrasts the violent act which earned them this curse (?) with their valor in Sh'khem!:

"...[Ya'akov] began calling out 'Shim'on and Levi are brothers...' you acted like brothers to Dinah, as it says: 'two of the sons of Jacob, Shim'on and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took each man his sword..' but you did not act like brothers to Yoseph when you sold him." (B. Rabbah 99:7 - this Midrash can be associated with the comment in Midrash Rabbati of R. Moshe haDarshan, to wit: the 'each man to his brother' mentioned in 37:19 at the sale of Yoseph refers to Shim'on and Levi; not coincidentally, Yoseph's abduction and sale took place in the Sh'khem region.)

Indeed, many Mefarshim maintain that the entire deathbed-charge of Ya'akov to Shim'on and Levi is only a reference to their role in the sale of Yoseph - who is also known as an "ox" (see D'varim 33:17).

BACK TO CHAPTER 34:

Now, let's look at Ya'akov's words when he confronted the brothers in the immediate aftermath of the events in Sh'khem:

And Ya'akov said to Shim'on and Levi, You have brought trouble on me to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the K'na'ani and the P'rizzi; and I being few in number, they shall gather together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house. (v. 30)

Is there moral outrage here? Is there a challenge to their religious sensitivities? Ya'akov's response seems to be disapproval of their strategies, to wit: "As a result of your actions, I will now have problems with the locals. We will now be attacked by the surrounding K'na'ani and P'rizzi peoples."

Furthermore, the Torah seems to lend support to the brother's actions throughout the narrative, as follows:

Twice within the description of the brothers' interaction with the people of Sh'khem, the phrase asher timei/tim'u et Dinah ahotam is added to the objects of the verse. In verse 13:

And the sons of Ya'akov answered Sh'khem and Hamor his father deceitfully, and said, (asher timei et Dinah ahotam who had defiled Dinah their sister);

In verse 27:

The sons of Ya'akov came upon the slain, and plundered the city (asher tim'u et Dinah ahotam).

Why is the Torah twice repeating something that we already know?

In the second instance, we could argue that the text is anticipating a severe criticism of the brothers' behavior (addressed by nearly all Mefarshim): If Sh'khem was guilty for the rape of Dinah, why did all of the townsfolk have to die? By equating their culpability (asher tim'u - in the plural - v. 27) with his own (asher timei - in the singular - v. 13), we get one of two pictures of the participation of the citizens of Sh'khem in this heinous crime:

a) Either they all participated physically in the defilement of Dinah, either by a S'dom-like orgy or else by abetting the criminal prince, (see the comments of R. Hayyim Paltiel on v. 31);

b) Since they had the wherewithal to censure and/or punish him for his behavior - and failed to do so - it is considered their crime as well. (This seems to be the assumption underlying Rambam's approach, cited above). This seems to be borne out by the record of the plea of Sh'khem to his townspeople to accept the conditions of the sons of Ya'akov:

And Hamor and Sh'khem his son came to the gate of their city, and talked with the men of their city, saying, These men are peaceable with us; therefore let them live in the land, and trade in it; for the land, behold, is large enough for them; let us take their daughters to us for wives, and let us give them our daughters. Only thus will the men consent to live with us, to be one people; if every male among us is circumcised, as they are circumcised. Shall not their cattle and their wealth and every beast of theirs be ours? only let us consent to them, and they will live with us. And to Hamor and to Sh'khem his son listened all who went out from the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all who went out of the gate of his city. (vv. 20-24)

If Sh'khem was truly an oligarch, would he need the people's consent - and would he have to appeal to their mercenary sensibilities – to forge this agreement? (see the insightful read of Rashi on this point in the Mishnat haLevi, p 307).

Besides these two (seemingly superfluous) pejorative references to the citizens of Sh'khem, note how the dialogue between Ya'akov and his sons is presented in the Torah:

And Ya'akov said to Shim'on and Levi, "You have brought trouble on me to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the K'na'ani and the P'rizzi; and I being few in number, they shall gather together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house."

And they said, "hakh'zonah ya'aseh et achoteinu? ("Should he deal with our sister as with a harlot?" - vv. 30-31)

The Torah gives the brothers the "last word" in their dispute with father Ya'akov. Furthermore, this "last word" is so terse and direct that it seems to leave Ya'akov "speechless" - indication that their argument held sway. The Torah seems to be giving approval to their actions - an observation strengthened by comparing the gist of Ya'akov's opposition with the "facts on the ground" in the subsequent narrative:

Compare:
"You have brought trouble on me to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the K'na'ani and the P'rizzi; and I being few in number, they shall gather together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house." (a pragmatic concern that the violent vengeance wreaked by the brothers will lead to a lynching of Ya'akov's family)

With:
And they journeyed; and the terror of G-d was upon the cities that were around them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Ya'akov. (35:5 - only 5 verses after the dispute).

The Torah is emphatically assuaging Ya'akov's fears - the local people did not rise up in anger against his family as a result of their actions in Sh'khem; rather, they stood in fear of them and did not even pursue them.

There is one more piece of support for the contention that Ya'akov was not morally opposed to the action taken by the brothers. Just before the deathbed "blessing" given in Egypt to the brothers, Ya'akov accepts both of Yoseph's sons as members of his own family (earning them each a full portion in the Land) and then declares to Yoseph:

"And I have given to you one Sh'khem above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow." (48:22)

This Sh'khem could mean portion, as Onkelos renders it. Alternatively, it may be a reference to the city of Sh'khem itself (see Rashi and Ibn Ezra ad loc.). If so, Ya'akov is not only accepting of the brothers' actions, he even "adopts" their war as his own. There are several Midrashim which indicate that Ya'akov himself participated in the war (see e.g. B. Rabbah 80:13). That would certainly take us very far from our original assumptions as presented at the beginning of this shiur.

[I am indebted to Binyamin Malek for his fine research which was utilized extensively in preparing the foregoing sections of the shiur - his article can be found in Megadim 23:9-29]

III

AKHARTEM OTI

If Ya'akov was not morally opposed to the slaying and pillage of the citizens of Sh'khem, catalyzed by an act of deception, we are left with three questions:

a) Why didn't he himself lead the charge against the citizenry? As we pointed out in the recent two-part shiur, Ya'akov was a master at knowing how to utilize deception when appropriate.

b) After the fact, why did he register opposition to their behavior - even if it was later dispelled?

c) Once we have put Ya'akov and his sons on the same side of this moral dilemma, how can we make sense of their conclusion? Why were Sh'khem, his father and all of the townsfolk liable for murder and pillage? (While we are assessing their behavior, it is instructive to reflect on the size of the population of Sh'khem. See Avrabanel's comments here - he notes that the population was small. Documents uncovered at recent digs at Tel al- Amarna suggest that there were under one hundred citizens - male and female- all told - vakma"l)

A crime for which the Torah mandates payment to the young woman's family should certainly not warrant this sort of treatment? In addition, as noted above, such behavior would seem to regress the cause of the Avrahamic tradition. How do we justify their behavior?

V

YA'AKOV AND HIS SONS

We will first address the dispute between Ya'akov and his sons regarding the proper tactics in response to the rape of Dinah; resolving this question will provide us an approach to the other two.

Although a full treatment of this topic is beyond the scope of this shiur, we have to approach any differences in attitude which surface between Ya'akov and his children against the backdrop of their substantially different backgrounds and experiential matrices.

Whereas Ya'akov grew up knowing grandfather Avraham (Yitzchak was 60 when Ya'akov was born; hence Avraham was 160 at the time; therefore Ya'akov was 15 when Avraham died) and, of course, knowing father Yitzhak (according to Seder Olam, Ya'akov was 63 when Yitzhak sent him away to Lavan). Conversely, Ya'akov's sons never knew great-grandfather Avraham - nor did they even meet Yitzhak until he was quite aged and, from all textual and Midrashic evidence, quite incapacitated (see, inter alia, Rashi at B'resheet 28:10).

Ya'akov grew up in Eretz K'na'an, but had to spend the last twenty years (at least - see BT Megillah 17a) "on the run". In addition, before his fleeing to Aram, his life seems to be one of isolation, save his relationship with mother Rivkah. Our story (Ch. 34) rests somewhere along the continuum from Galut (exile) to Shivah (return) - and therein lies the rub. Ya'akov's children, although born and raised in what proved to be an environment of enmity, had a full family support system, as well as being brought up as the children of a wealthy and powerful member of Lavan's household.

In sum, Ya'akov was an Eretz-Yisra'eli who had been in galut for a substantial time - and who had a clear and direct connection with Avraham and Yitzhak. His children were born in Aram and had never tasted the pain and loneliness of exile - and they had had no direct encounters with the first or second generations of the clan.

As such, Ya'akov's response to the rape of Dinah has to be understood against this background. Both grandfather Avraham and father Yitzhak had experienced similar difficulties with local chieftains: Sarah was taken to Pharaoh's palace (Ch. 12) and to Avimelekh's rooms (Ch. 20). Rivkah, although never taken from Yitzhak, was presented as his sister out of the same fear of the local ruler and the general lack of morality (Ch. 26).

Here, Ya'akov, who had not yet encountered such a threat, was faced with a hauntingly familiar scenario - with some significant differences. Dinah was not falsely presented as a sister – she really was an unmarried sister! She was taken to the house of the local ruler, just as in the cases with Avraham - but here's where the similarities end. Whereas G-d had intervened on behalf of Avraham both in Egypt and in G'rar, the rape of Dinah was carried out with bestial success.

Ya'akov had every reason to consider as follows:

If father Avraham, for whom G-d was prepared to intervene to spare Sarah, and who was only wandering through that land, was prepared to "play the game" and not belligerently confront the locals - how much more so in this case. After all, G-d has not intervened to help us here; and these are my permanent neighbors, with whom I must be able to get along. If it was important to exercise restraint in galut – as I have with Lavan and, just now, with Esav - how much more so in the Land where I intend to establish my roots.

The brothers (note that Shim'on and Levi are only singled out in describing the slaying; all of the brothers participated in the cunning negotiations as well as the pillage of the city), coming from their critically distinct upbringing and experiences, viewed the situation and the appropriate response quite differently. The non-confrontational attitude which both Avraham and Yitzhak had adopted while traveling (see our analysis of the role of deception while traveling in the last two shiurim - available in the B'resheet archives at http://www.torah.org/advanced/mi kra) was only appropriate for a land you intend to leave - ultimately, if the locals think you weak, it will have no deleterious effect on your own well-being. That is not the case, they argued, in a land that you intend to settle. If the local peoples think of our daughters as "fair game", we will never gain their respect - or fear. Our lives will be a long series of attacks and oppression. It is better, goes the argument, to make our stand here and now and let everyone know that we are not to be trifled with.

We now understand why Ya'akov did not originally take up arms – and why he was perturbed by their approach. It was not a moral opposition, rather a disapproval of their tactics which lay at the heart of his chastisement.

Both of their positions are easily in their respective arguments:

Ya'akov:
You have brought trouble on me to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the K'na'ani and the P'rizzi; and I being few in number, they shall gather together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.

The brothers:
Should he deal with our sister as with a harlot?

When we are talking about an individual who violates a young woman, the Torah does not consider it a capital offense; it allows for recompense and amelioration of the situation with a large fine as appropriate for a case of criminal assault. When, on the other hand, we are dealing with an attack which challenges the dignity and honor of the people of Yisra'el, that is a different matter entirely.

The Torah not only provides support for the brothers' position in the description of the ensuing travels which were "trouble-free", the Halakhah itself seems to lend support to this position:

Rav Yehudah stated in the name of Rav: If foreigners besieged Israelite towns... with the intention of taking lives the people are permitted to sally forth against them with their weapons and to desecrate the Shabbat on their account. Where the attack, however, was made on a town that was close to a frontier, even though they did not come with any intention of taking lives but merely to plunder straw or stubble, the people are permitted to sally forth against them with their weapons and to desecrate the Shabbat on their account. (BT Eruvin 45a)

POSTSCRIPT

Much ink has been spilt over the analysis of the "double-identity" of Ya'akov/Yisra'el - perhaps we will, one day, add our own input to that discussion. In any case, it is curious to note that throughout this narrative, our patriarch is referred to by his "galut-name", Ya'akov. Yet, when he "adopts" the conquest of Sh'khem, he speaks as Yisra'el:

And Yisra'el said to Yoseph, "Behold, I die; but G-d shall be with you, and bring you back to the land of your fathers. And I have given to you one Sh'khem above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow. (48:21-22)

Text Copyright © 2007 by Rabbi Yitzchak Etshalom and Torah.org. The author is Educational Coordinator of the Jewish Studies Institute of the Yeshiva of Los Angeles.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:16:31 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline DownwithIslam

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Chaim has never been wrong for as long as I have known about JTF, so it's safe to trust Chaims opinion on the issue.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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I am aware that the Malbim is one giant of a Torah source who says quite plainly that Shimon and Levi were correct in their behavior despite Yakov's misgivings (He cites the quote that ends off this section in the Parasha where the two brothers ask 'is our sister to be treated as a harlot' - as the indication that what they did was actually right).   I'm sure there are many other sources as well who argue on this issue.   I read in the Ramban for instance, that actually all the brothers were involved in the plot, but perhaps they should only have killed Shechem and escaped with Dina, since Shechem did the evil act directly, while the rest were only accomplices, and that this is what Yakov takes issue with.   But certainly the indications are in the text that the other brothers also plotted with the 2, to fake a covenant and pull a fast one when the people were in recovery period, whatever the 'fast one' would have been.    And as I said, some assert that Shimon and Levy were correct altogether.      By all accounts, the people of that land did something evil and deserved punishment/response. 

I also hasten to add that the three opinions (Rashi, Rambam, and Ramban) I saw about why Shimon and Levy brought wrath upon the inhabitants and not just Shechem himself, happen to give 3 different rationales for why the people of Shechem themselves were guilty of breaking their own moral requirements.   They argue on each other, but I found Ramban's most convincing.    If I remember correctly, he suggests that kidnapping is a form of thievery and is within the scope of the noahide law against theft, and the people of Shechem's refusal to bring this act to justice made them chayiv meeta (obligated to death penalty) for violating the negative commandment.   They all knew Shechem kidnapped Dina and did nothing, and seemed to approve of it.   Furthermore, this is likely an indication of typical behavior that they are often breaking this commandment as it has become a common practice that would allow them such apathy to the moral imperative in this instance.

 Authorities differ about the nature and scope of appropriate punishment.   But how someone could construe that as some sort of antisemitic model for Jewish people being in all cases dishonest or always treating people badly is unknown to me and sounds sick.   These people of Shechem clearly committed an offense or else they would have been treated nicely in kind.     That's how the world works.   When you commit an act of war, you cannot blame the other side for reacting negatively to you and then cry foul and say they 'hate your race.'

« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 07:04:12 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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I dont remember the video exactly (from the original poster). But what I beleive he was saying is that Yakov was disatisfied in the way they went about doing it. Since Yakov was an Eish Emet (a man of truth), the fact that they told them to circumcise themselves and then killed them, could have given the Jews a bad reputation and make us look as decitful people. Infact originally, all of the brothers told the city to circumsize themselves in order to get Dina, and they thought that they actually would not have done soo (normally 20, 30, 50, 60 and 80 year old men would not have agreed to this) and then even if they have done so, then they would take Dina and leave the city while they are in pain. But, Shimon and Levy Avenged their sister (which was also correct), but Yakov initially have a problem with it becuase of 2 reasons- 1 the WAY it turned out to look, as most read the story, where it's shown like they told them to circumsize themselves and then decitefully killed all the men, and 2- becuase he felt that then the other nations/city states would have attacked him and his family.  (their are also other reasons-one  of them being that maybe they really wanted to convert to be Jews, etc.)

 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Shalom,

I am inclined to give Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal the benefit of the doubt. It is not worthwhile to alienate him because I believe he is basically on our side. I think he has misunderstood what the moral of the story of Dinahs rape by Schem...


Of course, it's nothing personal against Ronen to point out if he had a mistaken view.   There is certainly room to say that some authorities agree with Yakov in taking issue with Shimon and Levi.   But, for those who do, to be exacting about what exactly according to them he does take issue with, and to see it in scope is to get to the nuance of this event.  The sources like this that I have seen still present a "hav amina" to Shimon and Levy's behavior, justifying at least according to their minds (Shimon and Levi's) when they did it why it could make sense or it would be just.  And of course not all sources agree that they were wrong.   But perhaps in citing the sources more negatively approaching Shimon and Levy, Ronen merely jumped to some conclusions that don't hold water and that aren't actually in those sources.   

I was also presented by a rabbi a very negative portrayal of Shimon and Levi's behavior that seemed to suggest chazal were unanimous in this view.  That is, until I consulted the sources myself, and saw that this was this rabbi's personal interpretation that he pieced together from maybe one source and then jumped to a conclusion that definitely was not there.  And there is definitely not a consensus on the issue in chazal.      But the Kahanist's point of view is quite clear and easy to discern, as Chaim has alluded to.

That article you quoted was very interesting.

Offline q_q_

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I just watched the video..  you'll see Ronen in it.

He actually supposts the idea of jews fighting our enemies..

And says that looking at the tenach, the torah does not want us to be timid.

The area that he thinks shimon and levi were wrong, was in their deception.  That they made a covenant with those people, those people circumcised themselves, and then shimon and levi killed them all when they were weak.
So, Ronen is saying fair war is fine, he just disagrees with the deception.

note- commentators discuss why yaakov criticised them, but don't mention deception. This is purely ronen's idea.

Ronen mentions about the attacks on jews in NY.. and that if they were armed, people wouldn't mess with them. And that the jews in the chabad house in mumbai should have been armed.

Ronen seems to say that this deception is a reason why some gentiles hate jews..This is wrong for a few reasons..
They give many reasons for hating us, that is never one of them!
In the state of israel's fight against the arabs, it is the arabs that have faught with deception. Making convenants with us and breaking them, and attacking with suicide bombers.

Even when we faught the romans under bar kochba. Really tough jews faught man to man,   I have an article from a religious jewish paper that says that to join bar kochba's army, one had to hack his own thumb off. Later the rabbis urged them to not use that gruesome tough membership test!

Now, on the Torah aspect and deception.
If you look at the story of Yaakov and Lavan, you see Yaakov tricks Lavan.
I recall that if you check Rashi,  You see Yaakov's wife Rachel questions Yaakov over this, and Yaakov says it's OK to trick a trickster.

Rabbi Kahane is one rabbi that really agreed with Yaakov.  We don't have to be more moral than our enemy.   
As they are merciful, so should you be merciful(Chaim said it, I think quoting king solomon). 

"I'm tired of being more moral than everybody else".  "If you don't sink to their level, then you don't, you sink 6ft under".

In the situation we are in, we don't have to trick them
Israel has the power to remove them.

Rabbi Kahane said, It's a Jewish problem, not an arab problem.
 
Basically the idea that we should fight our enemies, is kahanist, and that is his message.

Being against the deception is wrong, and the Midrash rashi quotes (where yaakov and rachel have the discussion) shows that.   But I don't think that the position ronen puts in that video is that non kahanist.  Infact it is still very kahanist.  Kahanism is a practical thing..  In practice we do not need to decieve (the deceptive ) arabs to defeat them. (like making a peace agreement with them and breaching it!)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 08:04:57 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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The reason Yaakov was against their action was because he felt it would lead to all the nations turning on the Jews. He felt that it endangered the Jews who were still a very small group.

But despite Yaakov's fears, no nation turned on the Jews in response to this act of vengence. In fact, if Shimon and Levi had not avenged their sister's brutal rape, then the Jews would have been in real danger because then the evil nations would have seen that the Jews are an easy target.

The issue was not deception. You have to use deception in war.

Yaakov objected to deception? Yaakov is the one who gave his blind father Yitzchak the impression that he was really Esau in order to get Yitzchak's blessing. "The voice is the voice of Yaakov, but the hands are the hands of Eisav (Esau)."

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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The reason Yaakov was against their action was because he felt it would lead to all the nations turning on the Jews. He felt that it endangered the Jews who were still a very small group.

But despite Yaakov's fears, no nation turned on the Jews in response to this act of vengence. In fact, if Shimon and Levi had not avenged their sister's brutal rape, then the Jews would have been in real danger because then the evil nations would have seen that the Jews are an easy target.

The issue was not deception. You have to use deception in war.

Yaakov objected to deception? Yaakov is the one who gave his blind father Yitzchak the impression that he was really Esau in order to get Yitzchak's blessing. "The voice is the voice of Yaakov, but the hands are the hands of Eisav (Esau)."


I believe that the Ramban also holds this position, that certainly Yakov had no problem with acting deceptively, and that he himself had learned to do this properly in dealing with criminals and evil crooks like Lavan.   If I'm remembering correctly the Ramban suggests that the brothers plotted and got approval for the plan from their father, for the general plan, which he was not told included fighting all the men of Shechem.... which he found out later.     But in that case he definitely knew of the general plot to trick them all.

Offline q_q_

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The reason Yaakov was against their action was because he felt it would lead to all the nations turning on the Jews. He felt that it endangered the Jews who were still a very small group.

But despite Yaakov's fears, no nation turned on the Jews in response to this act of vengence. In fact, if Shimon and Levi had not avenged their sister's brutal rape, then the Jews would have been in real danger because then the evil nations would have seen that the Jews are an easy target.

The issue was not deception. You have to use deception in war.

Yaakov objected to deception? Yaakov is the one who gave his blind father Yitzchak the impression that he was really Esau in order to get Yitzchak's blessing. "The voice is the voice of Yaakov, but the hands are the hands of Eisav (Esau)."


I believe that the Ramban also holds this position,


They all do.

And the plain text does too.

It's impossible to maintain a position against deception.  If the Tenach had gone Ronen's way, Jacob not taking the blessing (e.g. saying don't trick esau ever!), then we wouldn't have become the chosen people. It's absurd.  It's not G-d's plan.



that certainly Yakov had no problem with acting deceptively, and that he himself had learned to do this properly in dealing with criminals and evil crooks like Lavan.   If I'm remembering correctly the Ramban suggests that the brothers plotted and got approval for the plan from their father, for the general plan, which he was not told included fighting all the men of Shechem.... which he found out later.     But in that case he definitely knew of the general plot to trick them all.

chaim's example with jacob rachel and esau, is better than the lavan example.
because the lavan example was tricking a trickster.

chaim makes some really interesting crucial points there, all based on the plain text. His is a very complete argument, and one can't really differ with it either!


Offline Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal

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To Hashem is the earth and its fullness,

Reb Chaim,

Thank you for the mussar from your first post.

In the words of the Previous Rebbe - cherish criticism for it will place you on true heights.

I will work on these and I hope (IY''H) they will get better.

Your second post - I had some Tanach points I wanted to make.  Please take a look when you get a chance and let you me know what you think.



All the best and G-d bless.

PS - my history - when I was first becoming frum, I fell in love with the Tanya.  Then I married a meschisit thinking I'm open minded and she's open minded and it might work.

She asked for a get almost 2 years ago, but we have 2 great kids, B''H.

After the marriage, I fell in love with Likuta Moran and that's where I am now...

Offline DownwithIslam

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To Hashem is the earth and its fullness,

Reb Chaim,

Thank you for the mussar from your first post.

In the words of the Previous Rebbe - cherish criticism for it will place you on true heights.

I will work on these and I hope (IY''H) they will get better.

Your second post - I had some Tanach points I wanted to make.  Please take a look when you get a chance and let you me know what you think.



All the best and G-d bless.

PS - my history - when I was first becoming frum, I fell in love with the Tanya.  Then I married a meschisit thinking I'm open minded and she's open minded and it might work.

She asked for a get almost 2 years ago, but we have 2 great kids, B''H.

After the marriage, I fell in love with Likuta Moran and that's where I am now...

Ronen, what is Likuta Moran? Also, why exactly did you leave Chabad? I am so sad to hear that your marriage failed. Is their any way for you to somehow get the marriage back together(even though it's been awhile) for the sake of the children? I am only saying this to try and help the situation because it can be hard on the children.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline muman613

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To Hashem is the earth and its fullness,

Reb Chaim,

Thank you for the mussar from your first post.

In the words of the Previous Rebbe - cherish criticism for it will place you on true heights.

I will work on these and I hope (IY''H) they will get better.

Your second post - I had some Tanach points I wanted to make.  Please take a look when you get a chance and let you me know what you think.



All the best and G-d bless.

PS - my history - when I was first becoming frum, I fell in love with the Tanya.  Then I married a meschisit thinking I'm open minded and she's open minded and it might work.

She asked for a get almost 2 years ago, but we have 2 great kids, B''H.

After the marriage, I fell in love with Likuta Moran and that's where I am now...

Ronen, what is Likuta Moran? Also, why exactly did you leave Chabad? I am so sad to hear that your marriage failed. Is their any way for you to somehow get the marriage back together(even though it's been awhile) for the sake of the children? I am only saying this to try and help the situation because it can be hard on the children.

I will answer the 1st question. Likutey Moran is a sefer written by the followers of Rabbi Nachman. Rabbi Nachman is the Rebbe for the Breslov sect of Chassidic Judaism.

Here is some info from the wiki page @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breslov_(Hasidic_dynasty)



Important books of Breslover Hasidism

The main Hasidic texts revered and studied by Breslover Hasidim are those written by Rebbe Nachman and Reb Noson. All of Rebbe Nachman's teachings were transcribed by Reb Noson. Additionally, Reb Noson wrote some of his own works.

Rebbe Nachman's magnum opus is the two-volume Likutey Moharan (Collected Lessons of our Rebbe), a collection of 411 lessons displaying in-depth familiarity and understanding of the many overt and esoteric concepts embedded in Torah, Talmud, Zohar and Kabbalah.

Upon the Rebbe's instructions, Reb Noson collected all the practical teachings and advice contained in Likutey Moharan and published them in:

    * Likutey Eitzot (Collected Advice)
    * Kitzur Likutey Moharan

Rebbe Nachman's other works include:

    * Sefer HaMiddot (The Alef-Bet Book)—a collection of aphorisms on various character traits
    * Sippurei Ma'asiyyot (Rabbi Nachman's Stories)—13 mystical parables
    * Tikkun HaKlali (The General Remedy)—a specific order of 10 Psalms (16, 32, 41, 42, 59, 77, 90, 105, 137, 150) which counteract the pegam habrit kodesh

After the Rebbe's death, Reb Noson wrote down all the conversations, fragments of lessons, and interactions which he and others had had with the Rebbe during his lifetime. He published these in the following collections:

    * Shivchei HaRan (Praises of the Rebbe) and Sichot HaRan (Conversations of the Rebbe)—published in English as "Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom"
    * Chayei Moharan (Life of the Rebbe)—published in English as "Tzaddik"

Reb Noson also authored these commentaries and novellae:

    * Likutey Halachot (Collected Laws)—an 8-volume Hasidic commentary on Shulchan Aruch which shows the interrelationship between every Halakha and Rebbe Nachman's lessons in Likutey Moharan.
    * Likutey Tefillot (Collected Prayers)—210 direct and heartfelt prayers based on the concepts in Likutey Moharan.
    * Yemei Moharanat (The Days of Reb Noson)—an autobiography
    * Alim LeTerufah (Leaves of Healing)— Rebbe Nachman and Reb Noson's collected letters
    * Shemot HaTzaddikim (Names of Tzaddikim)—a list of the tzaddikim of Tanach, Talmud, Midrash, Zohar, Kabbalah, Chassidus and Geonim of Torah in General.

Breslovers do not restrict themselves to Rabbi Nachman's commentaries on the Torah, but also study many of the classic texts, including the Tanakh, the Talmud, the Midrash, and many others. They may also study the writings of Rebbes from other dynasties.

Students of Reb Noson, their students, and their students' students have added to the literature with further commentaries on the Rebbe's teachings, as well as original works.

Beginning in the early 1980s, the Breslov Research Institute (headed by Rabbi Chaim Kramer) began translating many Breslov works into English and thus English-speaking readers were introduced to Breslov teachings, accompanied by a growing body of original Breslov works in English.

Prior to the Breslov Research Institute efforts to translate and publish Breslov works in English, there numerous smaller scale similar efforts. Of particular note is Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's 'Gems of Rabbi Nachman' published in the early 1970s.



My family is from Uman, where Rabbi Nachman is buried, and his talmidim all make a pilgrimage to Uman in Ukraine each Rosh Hashanna. I am leaning toward Breslov observance myself.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 12:01:49 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline DownwithIslam

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To Hashem is the earth and its fullness,

Reb Chaim,

Thank you for the mussar from your first post.

In the words of the Previous Rebbe - cherish criticism for it will place you on true heights.

I will work on these and I hope (IY''H) they will get better.

Your second post - I had some Tanach points I wanted to make.  Please take a look when you get a chance and let you me know what you think.



All the best and G-d bless.

PS - my history - when I was first becoming frum, I fell in love with the Tanya.  Then I married a meschisit thinking I'm open minded and she's open minded and it might work.

She asked for a get almost 2 years ago, but we have 2 great kids, B''H.

After the marriage, I fell in love with Likuta Moran and that's where I am now...

Ronen, what is Likuta Moran? Also, why exactly did you leave Chabad? I am so sad to hear that your marriage failed. Is their any way for you to somehow get the marriage back together(even though it's been awhile) for the sake of the children? I am only saying this to try and help the situation because it can be hard on the children.

I will answer the 1st question. Likutey Moran is a sefer written by the followers of Rabbi Nachman. Rabbi Nachman is the Rebbe for the Breslov sect of Chassidic Judaism.

Here is some info from the wiki page @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breslov_(Hasidic_dynasty)



Important books of Breslover Hasidism

The main Hasidic texts revered and studied by Breslover Hasidim are those written by Rebbe Nachman and Reb Noson. All of Rebbe Nachman's teachings were transcribed by Reb Noson. Additionally, Reb Noson wrote some of his own works.

Rebbe Nachman's magnum opus is the two-volume Likutey Moharan (Collected Lessons of our Rebbe), a collection of 411 lessons displaying in-depth familiarity and understanding of the many overt and esoteric concepts embedded in Torah, Talmud, Zohar and Kabbalah.

Upon the Rebbe's instructions, Reb Noson collected all the practical teachings and advice contained in Likutey Moharan and published them in:

    * Likutey Eitzot (Collected Advice)
    * Kitzur Likutey Moharan

Rebbe Nachman's other works include:

    * Sefer HaMiddot (The Alef-Bet Book)—a collection of aphorisms on various character traits
    * Sippurei Ma'asiyyot (Rabbi Nachman's Stories)—13 mystical parables
    * Tikkun HaKlali (The General Remedy)—a specific order of 10 Psalms (16, 32, 41, 42, 59, 77, 90, 105, 137, 150) which counteract the pegam habrit kodesh

After the Rebbe's death, Reb Noson wrote down all the conversations, fragments of lessons, and interactions which he and others had had with the Rebbe during his lifetime. He published these in the following collections:

    * Shivchei HaRan (Praises of the Rebbe) and Sichot HaRan (Conversations of the Rebbe)—published in English as "Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom"
    * Chayei Moharan (Life of the Rebbe)—published in English as "Tzaddik"

Reb Noson also authored these commentaries and novellae:

    * Likutey Halachot (Collected Laws)—an 8-volume Hasidic commentary on Shulchan Aruch which shows the interrelationship between every Halakha and Rebbe Nachman's lessons in Likutey Moharan.
    * Likutey Tefillot (Collected Prayers)—210 direct and heartfelt prayers based on the concepts in Likutey Moharan.
    * Yemei Moharanat (The Days of Reb Noson)—an autobiography
    * Alim LeTerufah (Leaves of Healing)— Rebbe Nachman and Reb Noson's collected letters
    * Shemot HaTzaddikim (Names of Tzaddikim)—a list of the tzaddikim of Tanach, Talmud, Midrash, Zohar, Kabbalah, Chassidus and Geonim of Torah in General.

Breslovers do not restrict themselves to Rabbi Nachman's commentaries on the Torah, but also study many of the classic texts, including the Tanakh, the Talmud, the Midrash, and many others. They may also study the writings of Rebbes from other dynasties.

Students of Reb Noson, their students, and their students' students have added to the literature with further commentaries on the Rebbe's teachings, as well as original works.

Beginning in the early 1980s, the Breslov Research Institute (headed by Rabbi Chaim Kramer) began translating many Breslov works into English and thus English-speaking readers were introduced to Breslov teachings, accompanied by a growing body of original Breslov works in English.

Prior to the Breslov Research Institute efforts to translate and publish Breslov works in English, there numerous smaller scale similar efforts. Of particular note is Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's 'Gems of Rabbi Nachman' published in the early 1970s.



My family is from Uman, where Rabbi Nachman is buried, and his talmidim all make a pilgrimage to Uman in Ukraine each Rosh Hashanna. I am leaning toward Breslov observance myself.


Ok thanks for the info Muman.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline muman613

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I am not one who likes to give marital advice because my experience is very rocky itself. Im divorced too, but I have reconciled and we are working things out. It is very difficult to make a relationship work the way you want it to. All the Rabbis I listen to talk about Shalom Bayit {Peace in the Home} and teach that one must be VERY kind and generous in order to make a relationship work. It is a two way street and as long as the other partner shares the desire to make peace, then there will be a way.

Our relationship used to be very crazy. Ups and downs and all kinds of Lashon Hara. That was before my Teshuva {which my brothers murder on 9/11, the divorce, and losing a job brought about} and I was a crazy guy. If not for some wise words from an unlikely source {an african american neighbor who told me to 'go back to your people'} I may have gone further off the derech.

Faith in Hashem, study of Torah, trust in kindness, and doing mitzvot will not lead you on the wrong path. If I were giving advice, those things I would suggest. Our ancients have gone through so much more than we have and they have a lot of wisdom to teach us. I am gladdened that you seem to be pursuing Breslov Chassidus which I also have been drawn to. I am involved with the local Chabad and give every year to support them. I have nothing bad to say about Chabad. It is very moving when we all  daven all together and the Chabad nigguns are very enlightening.

What touches me so much about Breslov is the Rebbes placing much emphasis on the middot of Simcha {Joy}. The Rebbe was always teaching that depression is like darkness, lacking holiness. A wise student will always seek to spread light in combat with the darkness of depression. In my own life I feel this struggle, since I was a small child. The yetzer hara is a smart opponent and only through keeping our kevannah in our prayers and in our studies do we repel this evil inclination. There is much written on these topics at the Breslov website...

Breslov Homepage : http://www.breslev.co.il/default.aspx?language=english
Rabbi Lazer Brody talking about Faith : http://www.breslev.co.il/FilesUpload/Media/Video/English/11.asx
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal

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To Hashem is the earth and its fullness,

The divorce came only from my wife, not from me.

I am not planning on getting remarried until she does first.  Then I can't remarry her.

I don't believe in divorce.  I would remarry her in a second and she knows that.

It's complicated, but I would do anything for my children to have a normal house to

grow up in.

I think to say because she's a meschist and I'm not closer to Breslov we shouldn't give

the children we brought into this world a normal, two parent enviornment is absurd.

But, what can I do?  The ball is and always was in her court.  I doven for her to get

remarrie everyday.  At least then there will be a balance in the house.

Since Chiam didn't answer, does anyone else have feedback on my points?