Author Topic: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile  (Read 61062 times)

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Online Zelhar

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #150 on: December 21, 2008, 02:08:55 PM »
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Offline Ulli

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #151 on: December 21, 2008, 02:55:09 PM »
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Did they coming back to Judaism?
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2008, 03:02:26 PM »
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Did they coming back to Judaism?

No.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Online Zelhar

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #153 on: December 21, 2008, 03:04:08 PM »
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

Did they coming back to Judaism?
Very, very few of them may want to return to Judaism and if so they would most likely need to undergo conversion (and of course flee from their village). There are so few such Arabs , that they are even fewer than those delusional Jews who think that 86% of the Arabs are secrete Jews and would be interested in returning to Judaism and integrating into Israel.

Offline Ulli

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #154 on: December 21, 2008, 03:06:31 PM »
Tzvi and Zelhar, this is sad.

They could strengthen the Jewish element in the Muslim occupied territories.
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline muman613

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #155 on: December 21, 2008, 03:34:00 PM »
q_q_,

Why did you mention me in such a derogatory manner. You my friend are a Baal Lashon Hara if I have ever seen one. You are a crude and ruthless egotist who has no intellect and yet wants the world to think he is some kind of scholar. I see through your thin mask of deception q_q_, I know who you are... You are nothing more than a stinking klippot of the yetzer hara. You my friend are the one who needs an extra cup of coffee.

There I times I have supported your opinion only to have you turn around and insult me. You have no right to go around insulting people. You should ask your Rav about this and I am sure he will say you are wrong. q_q has attacked virtually everyone who has disagreed with him, and even those who have agreed with him.
<snip>


PS: Maybe some other less knowledgeable people here let you slide but I have never seen an example of you using Logic or Intellect in any of your postings. You are the first one to call people names and malign them. You are not an effective debator because your only method of debate is to insult the person you debate with.

PPS: Also you always leap at chances to correct other peoples spelling and grammar and yet you make numerous postings with run-on-sentences, improper paragraphs, mis-spellings, and other errors. I have gotten so tired of watching your mangling of the English language that I have come to the  conclusion that you are really a joke when you correct other peoples errors.



Quote
you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...

and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.

chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)

In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.

Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.

Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..

The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all..  .

Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.

A sentence should begin with a CAPITAL letter and end with a period, or other punction. "..." is not punctuation, see the reference below for what ellipses are meant for. Basically you are writing that your thoughts are just trailing off and incomplete.

Also a single sentence does not make a paragraph. You just place one 'q_q_ sentence' after another 'q_q_ sentence'. A 'q_q_' sentence is a bastardization of a english sentence through the use of a non-capital letter.

The 'paragraph' 'The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all...' is not a paragraph because it doesn't even express a complete idea. You just are writing words which mean nothing.

In the 'paragraph'  'In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.' you did not even accomplish your goal. You did not even give a good definition of the word. This is not a 'concise sentence' it is another q_q_ sentence which means nothing except to q_q_.


Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis
Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from Greek ἔλλειψις "omission") in printing and writing refers to a mark or series of marks that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word or a phrase from the original text. An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis).


q_q, please learn how to read and write english. I think you will be able to have a logical conversation with others without resorting to insults and lashon hara.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 04:49:38 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #156 on: December 21, 2008, 03:58:42 PM »
muman, if you read in chassidic literature you will see some examples.

if you think i'm some kind of kabbalistic connection to the yetzer harah then you should see that i've served an important G-dly purpose in testing you, a test that you believe you have overcome. So you should be very grateful and thank hakodesh baruch hu for my existence.

ps: I often don't capitalize on forums, it requires unnecessary energy. I don't expect others too either, which is why I don't correct others for it..If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.

Offline muman613

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #157 on: December 21, 2008, 04:02:35 PM »
muman, if you read in chassidic literature you will see some examples.

if you think i'm some kind of kabbalistic connection to the yetzer harah then you should see that i've served an important G-dly purpose in testing you, a test that you believe you have overcome. So you should be very grateful and thank hakodesh baruch hu for my existence.

q_q_,

I have thanked you for pushing me in the proper directions. I do recognize that and am grateful.

I just wish we didn't bump into each other like this. It is painful to see you use me as an example of someone who is not involved in the core of the matter but just involved to see my own words.

I am sorry if I am hard on the grammar and spelling... I grew up in a house where my mother was an English teacher and we worked hard on spelling and grammar.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #158 on: December 21, 2008, 04:14:43 PM »
muman, if you read in chassidic literature you will see some examples.

if you think i'm some kind of kabbalistic connection to the yetzer harah then you should see that i've served an important G-dly purpose in testing you, a test that you believe you have overcome. So you should be very grateful and thank hakodesh baruch hu for my existence.

q_q_,

I have thanked you for pushing me in the proper directions. I do recognize that and am grateful.

I just wish we didn't bump into each other like this. It is painful to see you use me as an example of someone who is not involved in the core of the matter but just involved to see my own words.

I am sorry if I am hard on the grammar and spelling... I grew up in a house where my mother was an English teacher and we worked hard on spelling and grammar.



AGAIN

Your spelling is a good thing.

I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.

But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.

As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"

And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #159 on: December 21, 2008, 04:34:08 PM »
they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?
NO it's Rubbish. There are a few villages, mainly in Hebron and southern Judea of such descendants.

worth saying why...

is it along the lines of

arab puts on some decent clothes , "gives himself" a hebrew name, and invites a jewish girl to a cafe.. takes her back to his place and for some reason she can't escape.   maybe she is threatened that if she leaves she'll be killed, and she is too afraid to leave.

I know that the JDL or Kach used to save these jewish girls.. they would kidnap them back! Once they have kids I guess it's a bit too late..

Walid Shoebat's mother is a western christian, and Walid actually rescued her himself!! Now she lives in America.  A sad fact, is walid(a christian in belief) said something along the lines of - his grandmother is jewish (could be maternal in which case he is jewish..  Could be paternal, in which case it's likely one of these cases of a jewish woman being taken hostage)..

There is the story about the lecha dodi arab
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/odysseys/Coming_Home_From_Ramallah.asp
I heard from rabbi mizrachi that he has around (5 or 6 + brothers I think), all terrorists. All jewish.


Offline muman613

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #160 on: December 21, 2008, 04:48:50 PM »
<snip>

AGAIN

Your spelling is a good thing.

I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.

But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.

As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"

And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.

Hello,
I am referring to this reference you made to me:

Quote
Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.

This is what makes me think you think I only want to see my own words... If I am mistaken I am sorry.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #161 on: December 21, 2008, 05:06:09 PM »
Interfaith
dialogue?
When we see the multitudes embracing interfaith dialogue, Jewish leaders clamoring to be
granted visits with the Pope, and the pervasive, positive sentiments expressed by both Jews and
Christians, it seems ‘sacrilegious’ to argue the sustained dialogue of two former adversaries
speaking peaceably. But as students of truth and reality, popularity is not our barometer of what is
G-d’s will; rather, G-d determines that.
the Torah’s position on “Interfaith Dialogue”
Let me first clarify matters: in no way should anyone presume that I mean to create a rift
between any peoples, or that I maintain any ill feelings towards any group. We are discussing
“religions” not adherents. People come and go, so what we wish to address are the ideas
JewishTlmes
25
r e t r o s p e c t i v e
themselves, the principles behind religions. Life is about searching for truth, even if it opposes
common beliefs. Additionally, as G-d created all men and women, we must duplicate G-d’s
kindness to all peoples. The greatest kindness is educating another person, and the greatest harm,
is to conceal the truth.
That being said, let us first determine our term “Interfaith Dialogue.” It refers to a forum in
which Jews and Christians seek to solidify friendships and remove strife; mutually accepting each
other’s practices and beliefs. However, we must ask, “Are their views accurate? Are Jews accurately
presenting Judaism to the Christians? Is the very presence of a Jew at such a dialogue
contradictory to Judaism? Is such a forum G-d’s will? Did G-d’s appointed Hebrew forefather
Abraham, engage in such dialogue, or did he in fact debate with other religions? Did not G-d
actually appoint Abraham as a leader ‘because’ of his very opposition to religions and idolatry,
creating a people who would follow Abraham’s way? This is expressly stated in Genesis, 18:19:
“For I know (him) that he will command his children and his household after him and they
will keep the way of G-d to do charity and justice.”
It is clear: Abraham led a distinct lifestyle, precisely defined as opposing idolatry, and teaching
against it. This is exactly why G-d chose Abraham and created a nation from him, “For they will
keep the way of G-d.” This means that Abraham partook of G-d’s way, while no one else did.
G-d approved of Abraham’s opposition to idolatry, and education of monotheism, as He says,
“For I know (him) that he will command his children and his household after him”.
Interfaith ‘Debate’
Abraham spent many years pondering the universe, arriving at profound ideas of philosophy,
science, monotheism, morality and justice. Since Abraham followed what G-d’s original plan was
for man, a life in pursuit of truth, G-d desired that the rest of the world benefit from Abraham’s
findings, and Abraham’s method of using reason to determine which religious ideas are true,
which are false, and to teach others of their error for their ultimate good. Therefore, G-d selected
Abraham to become a leader of a nation, a nation that would be provided with a system (the
Torah) for guiding man towards these truths. This Torah is not just for Jews, but all mankind. In
other words, G-d selected Abraham to establish and proliferate the Judaic system - one of
monotheism, which denounces idolatry, for the goodness of all humanity. Abraham did not
engage in interfaith dialogue, but in interfaith debate and education. Furthermore, Christianity
plagiarizes Judaism. We have no need for misinterpretations of the book, which we possess in its
uncorrupted, original form.

 http://www.mesora.org/retro.pdf (p 24). (not that I necessarily agree with that site).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #162 on: December 21, 2008, 06:33:16 PM »
Tzvi,
contrary to that mesora link you copy/pasted from
which said-
Quote
 
(your mesora website link)
"That being said, let us first determine our term 'Interfaith Dialogue.' It refers to a forum in
which Jews and Christians seek to solidify friendships and remove strife; mutually accepting each
other’s practices and beliefs....   Abraham did not
engage in interfaith dialogue, but in interfaith debate and education.

"

JTF is not about "presenting judaism to christians"

Infact, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ztl (who was widely considered to be the leading posek of the generation), a rabbi's rabbi, even The rabbi's rabbi's rabbi! The number 1 rabbi!

He had a very strict position on interfaith dialogue...
it was either banning it completely, or saying we can just work together socially.

he certainly didn't do debates.. and probably didn't even mention it because it's just not something jews do in our times, nor something jews have done in recent memory going back hundreds of years, it's not even a question.

And an interesting fact, is that in rabbi moshe feinstein's responsa, is a question from rabbi kahane , from when he was rabbi in a shul and a congregant had a wooden leg, and there was a technical question rabbi kahane asked him.  It's mentioned in the vol 1 biography

You know what..

I am absolutely sick of this tzvi..

You constantly do this and i'e repeated myself enough times to you.

How many times do you have ot be told that we don't try to convert christians out of christianity..

I don't even know if you can read all of what you copy/paste..

You aren't let off the hook by copy/pasting a chunk and saying that it isn't necessarily your opinion.   OVER and OVER again you have demonstrated that it is..  (just each time , more covertly)

You don't learn, you are intentionally obtuse.  JTF does not try to get christians to leave christianity.

Say it..  SAY IT

you have to understand it eventually. you've been told enough times.

I don't even want to bother correcting you over this. I'm sick of it.. You never learn..
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 07:05:37 PM by q_q_ »

Offline q_q_

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #163 on: December 21, 2008, 06:59:50 PM »
<snip>

AGAIN

Your spelling is a good thing.

I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.

But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.

As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive.  You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"

And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.

Hello,
I am referring to this reference you made to me:

Quote
Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.

This is what makes me think you think I only want to see my own words... If I am mistaken I am sorry.


Muman, you were of course mistaken.. You certainly enjoy dialogue about aspects of judaism, it was that enjoyment that I was referring to.  Not you seeing your own words and enjoying that. Infact I think you don't enjoy your own words that much..
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 08:21:06 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #164 on: December 21, 2008, 08:49:15 PM »
You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #165 on: December 21, 2008, 08:50:34 PM »
q_q_,

Why did you mention me in such a derogatory manner. You my friend are a Baal Lashon Hara if I have ever seen one. You are a crude and ruthless egotist who has no intellect and yet wants the world to think he is some kind of scholar. I see through your thin mask of deception q_q_, I know who you are... You are nothing more than a stinking klippot of the yetzer hara. You my friend are the one who needs an extra cup of coffee.versation with others without resorting to insults and lashon hara.
Muman, don't raise your blood pressure over this Neturei Karta defender. He is so not worth the time.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #166 on: December 21, 2008, 08:59:24 PM »
You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.

 Thank you. That is what I am trying to tell you all of this time. I'm glad you finally understand.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #167 on: December 21, 2008, 09:33:33 PM »
You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.

Not quite CF, but if that's what you think, then that would be quite helpful as a closure to the wound that is your understanding.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 09:40:15 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #168 on: December 22, 2008, 06:22:10 PM »
Not quite CF, but if that's what you think, then that would be quite helpful as a closure to the wound that is your understanding.
That was a beautifully coherent sentence. Not.

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #169 on: December 23, 2008, 04:42:35 PM »
Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).

I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.

Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.

 Rambam wrote in a private letter sent to the Jews of Yemen about Islam. The liklyhood of someone reading it was slim.

Actually, the Rambam had to flee Morrocco because the Muslims did get ahold of that letter.

So the likelyhood of someone reading it was more than slim, obviously.
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #170 on: December 23, 2008, 04:50:44 PM »
                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).



Thank you, Chayim.

Very true. Although you don't need today's rabbis to tell you about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile). It's in the Mishna, the Talmudh, Maimonides, Nachmanides and pretty much every Halakhic work in existence that discussed the issue.

I say this not to diminish such rabbis today, only because certain Haredim today take the gedolim theory to such an extreme that they think that primary sources are worthless and the only thing one needs to do is ask the gedolim. And if the gedolim say that it's ok to take money for yeshivoth and vote for the Gush Katif Expulsion, then that is fine. I bet they would eat pork if Rav Elyashiv or Ovadia Yosef said it was ok.

And eating pork is a MUCH LESS SERIOUS sin that telling your Knesset members to take BRIBERY in order to vote for the Gush Katif Expulsion.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 04:55:52 PM by judeanoncapta »
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #171 on: December 23, 2008, 05:06:29 PM »
<snip>
Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, <snip>

just to be clear, I didn't say that.

I said that his argument about a third of the torah any time ,applies to them and most orthodox jews in the world....


Very true. I don't disagree.

There is no such thing as authentic Torah in the Galuth.
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #172 on: December 23, 2008, 05:12:40 PM »
I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..

But from a purely academic perspective..

straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says

in tractate ketuvot 111A,  (and that page has been mentioned before)

Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon  for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.


It is interesting that while Maimonides takes the statement about not leaving Israel as a halakhic statement and includes it in the Mishne Torah, the three oaths which say Jews should stay in Exile he does NOT take as a halakhic statement and does NOT include in the Mishne Torah.

Just an interesting contrast.
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Offline q_q_

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #173 on: December 23, 2008, 05:22:45 PM »
I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..

But from a purely academic perspective..

straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says

in tractate ketuvot 111A,  (and that page has been mentioned before)

Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon  for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.


It is interesting that while Maimonides takes the statement about not leaving Israel as a halakhic statement and includes it in the Mishne Torah, the three oaths which say Jews should stay in Exile he does NOT take as a halakhic statement and does NOT include in the Mishne Torah.

Just an interesting contrast.

There is a significant difference though in how the gemara introduces them.

The 3 oaths - verav..

I don't have a gemara at hand right now but I suspect that it doesn't say verav for the other statement.

I have heard that when the gemara says verav, it doesn't mean the rabbi himself said.. it may be the students having some kind of discussion on what their rabbi would say.   I asked the person for a source, he said he heard it in a multi-part shiur about the 3 oaths at a chabad place. 

I heard the same thing about verav, from an/the unreliable maimonidean.. so 2 completely different independent sources, there is probably something in it. But no 1st hand source about verav.

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Re: Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
« Reply #174 on: December 24, 2008, 02:05:30 AM »
There is a significant difference though in how the gemara introduces them.

The 3 oaths - verav..

I don't have a gemara at hand right now but I suspect that it doesn't say verav for the other statement.

I have heard that when the gemara says verav, it doesn't mean the rabbi himself said.. it may be the students having some kind of discussion on what their rabbi would say.   I asked the person for a source, he said he heard it in a multi-part shiur about the 3 oaths at a chabad place.
Don't you have a Neturei Karta rally to get ready for?

The Song of Songs of King Shlomo, in the Tanach, is about G-d celebrating, and encouraging, marital love and pleasure in the context of the marriage of Shlomo and the love of his life (the woman who is sunburnt because her brothers have forced her to toil away in the sun). But, being sexually frustrated (I assume, judging from your absurd responses in the Duggars thread), that is abhorrent to you, so you must rip it apart.

Only a brilliant "Torah scholar" such as yourself, or your gd "Rabbi" Teitelbaum, could construe such a beautiful book of Holy Scripture to be a manifesto for the destruction of Israel.