Arkansas family welcomes 18th child, a girl

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

Was your baby healthy or did she have a health problem? Also I think it's great that you had that support group. I hope if you had to stop that one day you can have it again.

Baruch Hashem, my daughter was born absolutely healthy; the tests had been wrong (people forget that doctors can be wrong!) The MSAFP test was incorrect, and the ultrasound was too.

[Rubystars]

I'm so glad your baby was healthy! I think maybe God was putting you to a test.

[q_q_]

You make a great point about people with messed up bodies but intact minds having a better chance of leading a fulfilling life.
I think it's better to be physically disabled than mentally disabled. Most people I speak to are more frightened of Alzheimers than they are of losing mobility when they get older.

However we don't really know what it's like for the person with a mental deficiency to live as they live. Maybe he thought it was a funny joke that other people just didn't get. I've seen the kids with Downs come into my workplace to do busywork sometimes and they do smile and laugh but of course they get bored easily because they have a short attention span. I helped out in a summer school once with lots of mentally disabled kids and most of them seemed like they were happy most of the time, they just weren't "normal" to other people. They've never known any other way of being, so like the Hensel twins adapted to working in unison to move their shared body, these kids adapt to the minds they're given, and function with what they have available to them. Just because we don't think we would be happy like that, doesn't mean they can't be.

I think it's our duty as fellow human beings to show them compassion and help them, and maybe it's their duty to teach us to have patience and other virtues. Do you believe every life has a purpose?

Regarding the (seriously) mentally retarded.. I don't think it is that significant if they are happy or not.  Maybe a miserable one if he were able to contemplate his situation would prefer that over being happy and oblivious. "I think therefore I am". It's good that they do get alot of happyness during the day though.. they are under very good care.

Regarding the question.. do I believe that every life has a purpose..

There would be serving G-d
Making the world good (which is probably just something that follows from that)

But aside from that.

People often ask What is the point/purpose in life, and they come to the conclusion that there is no purpose. 
The thing that often follows from that is "why do anything?".   "no point".
The interesting thing though is that you can also draw the opposite conclusion, of "why not do anything" (provided it doesn't hurt anybody else, and it's not against G-d)

The implication of that is, that we can define our own purpose

(as great as that sounds, ultimately one tends to end up working daily and producing / providing / caring for a family! paying bills, saving for good healthcare. So most people end up with largely the same purpose, and very limited time for much else. But even given that, one can lead a life of purpose, and that is fulfilling)

Of course, this is all well and good. But What about the mentally disabled..

I think one of the things you said, suggests a very logical answer.. not too speculative..

You said that 1% of pregnancies goes wrong and a child comes out very wrong e.g. deformed..

If so, then for that one deformed child, 99 others will come out fine.

And if it wasn't him, it would be somebody else. It's a price that for some reason, G-d or just nature has made him pay, but that price serves an enormously meaningful purpose.

I heard a similar answer regarding earthquakes.

Similarly, natural selection seems harsh at the time, but a beauty of it is that it does help to ensure that the next generation has it better.

Just like cars produce gas emissions.

Soon with medicine we will able to treat deformed foetuses in the womb..
A bit like how we now have some cars that are solar powered. 
Problem solved at source. A complex system has some costs to using it, some prices to be paid. But now it no longer has it, thanks to man's technological advances. 

Modern medicine can already test parents to see if e.g. both are carriers of common genetic diseases.  A bit like how modern science can help people avoid earthquakes. (large problem worked around..by avoiding the problem, though not solving it at source)

I wrote this post some days ago, I was tapping it into notepad or a JTF.ORG forum textbox, but there was a powercut for a moment, I was on a regular computer - not a laptop with a battery(effectively a UPS!) - and the computer went off and on, effectively resetting.    It actually confirms my point. The electricity system is still used because it works, but there are these little(or usually relatively small) prices to pay for it to work!  The price is always relatively small, if it was too high we'd all just give up on it.

[Rubystars]

Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe God isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.

I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe G-d isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.

I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.

I agree with you, re: testing. As a rabbi once said to me, G-d tests those who claim to follow Him, to see with whom He can 'do business'. He tested Avram Aveinu as well!

[q_q_]

Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe G-d isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.

I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.

I agree with you, re: testing. As a rabbi once said to me, G-d tests those who claim to follow Him, to see with whom He can 'do business'. He tested Avram Aveinu as well!

If you are talking to a religious christian, do you normally talk about AVRAHAM AVINU(abraham our father) ?  MOSHE RABBEINU(moses our teacher) , e.t.c.  or do you adapt. 
An intelligent religious jew uses hebrew phrases like that when talking to other religious jews.   Imagine uses these phrases with a non-jewish neighbour.  It's just a stupid thing to do. It's unnecessary.

Muslims do it because they want the world to talk about Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yakub, Musa and Isa and the rest. But we don't. Hebrew is a or the language for jews, and judaism is the religion for only jews.  The term Moshe Rabbeinu e.t.c. is both hebrew and a classic title from judaism.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

Since the incidence is relatively low I have to wonder if maybe G-d isn't testing people like Sarah Palin or others to see what they will do.

I feel a little torn on the issue of medically preventing deformity because one of the major ways in which this is going to happen is for several embryos to be examined for genetic defects and then only the healthy ones would be implanted. The unhealthy ones would be discarded. I feel uncomfortable with this. I know the human body rejects most conceptus and doesn't allow them to implant, so I'm not so much against birth control. However once the embryos reach the 8 cell stage they've already begun to form and it makes me very queasy to think of discarding these.

I agree with you, re: testing. As a rabbi once said to me, G-d tests those who claim to follow Him, to see with whom He can 'do business'. He tested Avram Aveinu as well!

If you are talking to a religious christian, do you normally talk about AVRAHAM AVINU(abraham our father) ?  MOSHE RABBEINU(moses our teacher) , e.t.c.  or do you adapt. 
An intelligent religious jew uses hebrew phrases like that when talking to other religious jews.   Imagine uses these phrases with a non-jewish neighbour.  It's just a stupid thing to do. It's unnecessary.

Muslims do it because they want the world to talk about Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yakub, Musa and Isa and the rest. But we don't. Hebrew is a or the language for jews, and judaism is the religion for only jews.  The term Moshe Rabbeinu e.t.c. is both hebrew and a classic title from judaism.

I assumed that since Rubystars is a frequent poster here, she would understand terms such as "Avram Aveinu" (Abraham our father). I usually use that term so its normal for me to use it routinely.

[q_q_]

I assumed that since Rubystars is a frequent poster here, she would understand terms such as "Avram Aveinu" (Abraham our father). I usually use that term so its normal for me to use it routinely.

Gentiles will also understand Abram or Abraham. No need to write the hebrew phrase.  Rubystars is really intelligent and wise.  But not everybody is. As a general rule, don't use these phrases or some gentiles will start running around talking about Avraham Avinu. People may even think they are jewish, and they will blur things and secular jews will get really messed up meeting those types.

Rabbis also use these terms often / routinely *When talking to religious jews. * When talking to gentiles e.g. the media, they don't. Not because it won't be understood. But because these phrases are for jews.. it's hebrew and solely from judaism.

[Rubystars]

Thank you for the compliment QQ