Author Topic: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth  (Read 10835 times)

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Offline Americanhero1

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Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« on: January 26, 2009, 01:18:07 PM »
WASHINGTON — Two centuries after Charles Darwin's birth on Feb. 12, 1809 , people still argue passionately about his theory of evolution.

Was Darwin right? Should schoolchildren be exposed to contrary views in science class? These two controversies continue to rage, partly because both sides are evenly matched.

Most scientists and courts that have ruled on the matter say that overwhelming evidence backs Darwin's explanation of the origin and evolution of species, including humans, by natural selection.

Many people, especially religious and social conservatives, strongly disagree.

Among them are ``creationists,'' who take literally the Genesis story that God created the world and mankind in six days no more than 10,000 years ago. Others support ``intelligent design,'' the idea that life is too complex to have arisen without a supernatural ``designer," presumably God.

Public opinion surveys consistently have shown that Americans are deeply divided over evolution. The most recent Gallup poll on the issue, in June 2007 , found that 49 percent of those surveyed said they believed in evolution and 48 percent said they didn't. Those percentages have stayed almost even for at least 25 years.

Gallup found a political angle to the split. Two-thirds of Republicans rejected Darwin's theory, while majorities of Democrats and political independents accepted it.

A Harris poll published last December found that more people believe in a devil, hell and angels than in evolution.

The controversy is most acute in the public schools, where conservatives want evolution banished from science classes or at least described as ``a theory, not a fact.''

Darwin's supporters counter that to scientists a theory isn't just a guess or a hypothesis but a widely accepted explanation of natural events supported by the best available evidence.

At a hearing last week before Texas' State Board of Education , scientists and social conservatives exchanged fiery arguments over a rule that requires science textbooks to cover ``the strengths and weaknesses'' of evolutionary theory.

Darwin critics control seven of the 15 seats on the board and have the support of Republican Gov. Rick Perry . The chairman of the board, Don McLeroy , a dentist, is a creationist who believes that the Earth is only thousands of years old, not billions as most scientists think. The board will decide the issue in March.

Louisiana's State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education adopted guidelines Jan. 15 that allow teachers to use ``supplemental materials'' that aren't in regular textbooks about ``controversial'' subjects such as evolution and global warming.

Louisiana's new rules ``ensure the state's teachers their right to teach the scientific evidence both for and against Darwinian evolution,'' according to the Discovery Institute , the headquarters of the intelligent design movement in Seattle .

``We fully expect to see the Discovery Institute's book, `Explore Evolution,' popping up in school districts across the state,'' Barbara Forrest , a Darwin supporter in Hammond, La. , told Science magazine .

The Louisiana school board also eliminated language that had banned the teaching of creationism or intelligent design, saying that the ban is unnecessary.

``The creationists got what they wanted,'' said Patsye Peebles , a retired Louisiana science teacher.

The opposition to the Discovery Institute is led by the National Center for Science Education , a pro-Darwin research center based in Oakland, Calif.

The center contends that intelligent design is a subtle way to introduce religion into science education, which the courts consistently have declared unconstitutional.

``The phrase `strengths and weaknesses' has been spread nationally as a slogan to bring creationism in through the back door,'' center executive director Eugenie Scott told the Texas school board.

Similar proposals are pending or expected in Alabama , Arkansas , Florida , Georgia , Michigan , Missouri , Oklahoma and South Carolina , according to Glenn Branch, the deputy director of the National Center for Science Education .

``In a typical year, NCSE will be monitoring about 80 episodes of creationist activity in the United States and abroad,'' Branch said.

``This issue isn't going away,'' John West , a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute , wrote in an e-mail to his allies last May. ``Although Darwinists are doing their best to shut down and intimidate anyone who raises questions about neo-Darwinism, we still have free speech, and they can't prevent people from hearing about the debate in the public arena, no matter how hard they try.''

The theory of evolution itself is evolving. Since Darwin's day, researchers have acquired powerful tools that revealed DNA's role in passing inheritance from generation to generation, something Darwin knew nothing about.

Around the middle of the 20th century, this led to the ``Modern Synthesis,'' a major updating of evolutionary theory to accommodate new information. Many biologists are suggesting still another revision, which some call ``Modern Synthesis 2.0.''

For example, Darwin described evolution as the growth of a tree, the ``Tree of Life. '' The tree began with a single, original organism at the root, with myriad species branching off from the trunk.

Biologists increasingly say that evolution resembles a web or a bush rather than a tree. Microbes constantly swap DNA. Hybrid plants and animals cross species lines, blurring sharp lines between species.

``We understand evolution pretty well,'' said W. Ford Doolittle , a Darwin supporter and biologist at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia . ``It's just that it's more complex than Darwin imagined.''
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090126/sc_mcclatchy/3153454

Offline egoisticdude

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009, 09:27:58 PM »
I respect Darwin's theory and I'm amazed how research today continue to prove and disprove his studies. I think it's best that we just respect his theory of evolution and just move forward to new discoveries. However, let's also put into mind that through him, we are given the knowledge about the possibility of this theory.

EDIT: Utterly irrelevant links removed.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 12:52:36 AM by Mishmaat »

Offline muman613

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 09:44:02 PM »
I respect Darwin's theory and I'm amazed how research today continue to prove and disprove his studies. I think it's best that we just respect his theory of evolution and just move forward to new discoveries. However, let's also put into mind that through him, we are given the knowledge about the possibility of this theory.

What do the links to dental hayward have to do with this thread?

EDIT: Links removed.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 12:53:38 AM by Mishmaat »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Daleksfearme

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 10:35:30 PM »
There is no reason why science and religon should not be able to co exist. In my view, the process of Evolution only shows the true grandur of the nautral world, while Religion shows me the true nature of the spirit.

"You must not have looked in the new dictionary for the word Genocide, Because Right next to it is a picture of me with a capton that reads...over my dead body!"

The Doctor

Offline muman613

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 11:51:52 PM »
There is no reason why science and religon should not be able to co exist. In my view, the process of Evolution only shows the true grandur of the nautral world, while Religion shows me the true nature of the spirit.



Hashem is above nature, the spirit is above nature, the Jewish people are above nature...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 07:04:14 AM »
Wait. Hold on here. We all know Gd is a flying spagetti monster and humans are nothing more than the retarded offspring of a fish squirrel  making it with a frog monkey!
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 07:28:43 AM »
There is no controversy about this within the scientific community. Absolutely none. The only controversy about it is in the minds of the non-scientific public.

Offline Christian Zionist

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009, 11:25:36 AM »

Evolution song:



DID CHARLIE MAKE A MONKEY OUT OF YOU?
©Tom Walk, Russel Alan Pratt
INTRO by Professor Poopfossil: (performed by Samuel Fischer)
Good morning Class! My name is professor Poopfossil and today we will be studying the principles of E-VIL-U-TION
Once I was a tadpole long and thin
Then I was a froggie with my tail tucked in
Then I was a baboon in a tropical tree
And Now Im your professor with a PHD
And the Big question is: Did Charlie Make A Monkey Out Of You?
LYRICS:
Well they say about 60 billion years ago
A little fish changed to a tadpole
Sprouted legs and grew some hands
Then he crawled out on the land
Changed from a reptile, to a monkey then a man!
So today I took my Bible to my school
But they say God's word is now against the rules
They say my Grandpa's a Gorilla,
My Dad's a chimpanzee
And my little baby brother's a baboon!
(Chorus) Did Charlie make a monkey out of you? Wackadoo! Wackadoo! Do you think you should be living in a zoo? Wackadoo! Wackadoo!
Don't you know that it's a lie
When it comes your turn to die
You'll find out your not a monkey but a fool!
Well I've heard some far fetched stories in my day
But the one I heard this morning takes the cake!
Well, I'm looking in the mirror
Just a checking out my rear
But I can't find a tail growing any place! Chorus
So I stood up to the teacher and told the class
"I can't swallow all this baloney about our past!
Evolution really stinks,
There just too many missing links
To believe all this is just to much to ask!" (chorus)
You'll find out you're not a monkey but a fool
Don't let Charlie make a monkey out of you!
Isaiah 62:1 -  For Zion's sake I am not silent, And for Jerusalem's sake I do not rest, Till her righteousness go out as brightness, And her salvation, as a torch that burns.

Offline Cato

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2009, 11:48:30 AM »
I respect Darwin's theory and I'm amazed how research today continue to prove and disprove his studies. I think it's best that we just respect his theory of evolution and just move forward to new discoveries. However, let's also put into mind that through him, we are given the knowledge about the possibility of this theory.

EDIT: Utterly irrelevant links removed.

Darwin did not have a theory of evolution. He had a theory of natural selection.

Offline Cato

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2009, 11:53:14 AM »
There is no controversy about this within the scientific community. Absolutely none. The only controversy about it is in the minds of the non-scientific public.
Dead right. On the other hand, religious belief does not have to justify itself, but then it shouldn't try to argue it's point by scientific reasoning. 

Offline muman613

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2009, 12:22:54 PM »
There is no controversy about this within the scientific community. Absolutely none. The only controversy about it is in the minds of the non-scientific public.

As if the 'scientific community' has never been wrong before?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline syyuge

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2009, 01:28:22 PM »
Perhaps only the atheists are using the derivatives of Darwin's theory to create an edge over the religions.

Otherwise how the muslamics are not evolving in to men. :laugh:
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2009, 01:28:31 PM »
A fish-like thing appeared among the annelids one day.
It hadn't any parapods nor setae to display.
It hadn't any eyes nor jaws, nor ventral nervous cord,
But it had a lot of gill slits and it had a notochord.

     Chorus:
    It's a long way from Amphioxus. It's a long way to us.
    It's a long way from Amphioxus to the meanest human cuss.
    Well, it's goodbye to fins and gill slits, and it's welcome lungs and hair!
    It's a long, long way from Amphioxus, but we all came from there.

It wasn't much to look at and it scarce knew how to swim,
And Nereis was very sure it hadn't come from him.
The mollusks wouldn't own it and the arthropods got sore,
So the poor thing had to burrow in the sand along the shore.

He burrowed in the sand before a crab could nip his tail,
And he said "Gill slits and myotomes are all to no avail.
I've grown some metapleural folds and sport an oral hood,
But all these fine new characters don't do me any good.

    (chorus)

It sulked awhile down in the sand without a bit of pep,
Then he stiffened up his notochord and said, "I'll beat 'em yet!
Let 'em laugh and show their ignorance. I don't mind their jeers.  *
Just wait until they see me in a hundred million years.                  *

My notochord shall turn into a chain of vertebrae
And as fins my metapleural folds will agitate the sea.
My tiny dorsal nervous cord will be a mighty brain
And the vertebrates shall dominate the animal domain.

    (chorus)

* note -- the two lines marked by asterisks are not the original words, which are:
   I've got more possibilities within my slender frame
   Than all these proud invertebrates that treat me with such shame.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 01:30:53 PM »
There is no controversy about this within the scientific community. Absolutely none. The only controversy about it is in the minds of the non-scientific public.

As if the 'scientific community' has never been wrong before?




Any theory that would replace evolution would have to account for why evolution matches up with the evidence so well.

Offline Cato

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2009, 02:48:10 PM »
There is no controversy about this within the scientific community. Absolutely none. The only controversy about it is in the minds of the non-scientific public.

As if the 'scientific community' has never been wrong before?
Yes, both the religous and the scientific communities, if one can separate them, have been wrong on many issues. Scientists have often made the mistake of not recognising the limits of what they can understand. As someone once said of space, there is much out there that we don't understand, and much that we can't understand. There all all manner of areas which the human brain simply isn't good enough to comprehend.

As a commercial geneticist, evolution is not an issue to me. If people don't want to believe it, then so be it. In the practical scientific world, they'd soon find out how far they get without it. However what I find amazing is that the US public, while wringing it's hands over the evolution so-called issue, doesn't seem to care less about the GMO issue, which correctly is considered of extreme importance in Europe. With GMO's, to quote Prince Charles, we really have scientists interfering in the plan of the Creator. Cross-species gene transplants have already given us AIDS and mad cow disease. But perhaps Monsanto aren't as good at thought control in Europe as they are in the US. And it's costing them serious money.

Enjoy your trip to the supermarket! 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 02:58:06 PM by carreg »

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2009, 07:40:15 PM »
I stand corrected. We all are the retarded offspring of the fishfrog and retarded squirrelmonkey ape
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 01:19:42 AM »
Any theory that would replace evolution would have to account for why evolution matches up with the evidence so well.
Ever read the works of Ken Ham?

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 01:27:36 AM »
Any theory that would replace evolution would have to account for why evolution matches up with the evidence so well.
Ever read the works of Ken Ham?

My favorite of his is the dead cat fossilizing audio clip  :laugh: Poor kids who have to listen to that.

He's that Australian young earth creationist guy, right? Yeah I've heard most of what he has to say. Serb Avenger I'm sorry but there's absolutely no truth to young earth creationism. If you're going to reject evolution you're better off going with someone like Hugh Ross who at least tries not to contradict too much science.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 01:31:29 AM »
Serb Avenger I'm sorry but there's absolutely no truth to young earth creationism. If you're going to reject evolution you're better off going with someone like Hugh Ross who at least tries not to contradict too much science.
Rubystars, normally I like your posts and posting style but that's incredibly arrogant and ignorant. If you consistently applied your reasoning on the "evidence" for evolution to other topics of controversy, than you'd have to also be convinced that Obama is not a Muslim and that the Fakestinians have a historical basis for their so-called "state", because that is what the Establishment is unanimously arguing and providing tons and tons of "evidence" for.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 01:37:06 AM »
Serb Avenger I'm sorry but there's absolutely no truth to young earth creationism. If you're going to reject evolution you're better off going with someone like Hugh Ross who at least tries not to contradict too much science.
Rubystars, normally I like your posts and posting style but that's incredibly arrogant and ignorant. If you consistently applied your reasoning on the "evidence" for evolution to other topics of controversy, than you'd have to also be convinced that Obama is not a Muslim and that the Fakestinians have a historical basis for their so-called "state", because that is what the Establishment is unanimously arguing and providing tons and tons of "evidence" for.

The evidence, at least from a historical standpoint, is against there ever having been a "Palestinian" state. The complete lack of artifacts from "Palestinian" culture is one argument to be made.
Obama being a Muslim or not would be harder to prove with evidence, but we can make a good circumstantial case, along with direct quotations from him which indicate that his sympathies are with Islam.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 01:42:46 AM »
Ken Ham's Dead Cat presentation to KIDS:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hold up my dead cat and say to the children "Imagine you go home today and find out your pet cat just died. What are you going to do?" *MEOW*

Adam told G-d that he wanted life without Him, free to do as he pleased. But you see, G-d who is righteous, had to judge Adam's rebellion by judging his sin with death. As a result, the world, which was once called very good, became corrupt with disease, death, suffering, and evil.

??? disease... disaster, suffering.

??? disease... disaster, suffering.

You know they're all around us.

I hold up my dead cat. *MEOW*

What are you going to do? *MEOW*

You take your dead cat outside and place it on the grass and then put up a sign stating, "Dead cat fossilizing, do not touch." If you record your observations, that would be something like this:


◦Day 1: Dead cat on grass.
◦Day 7: Smelly dead cat on grass.
◦Day 200: Part of cat missing
◦Day 300: All of cat missing.

You see, it didn't turn into a fossil; it just decayed. *MEOW*

You see, G-d said he made all the land animals on day 6 of creation, and he did not say that it did not include the dinosaurs. Now follow me here. They don't want to submit to the G-d of the bible.

*MEOW-YOW-YOW*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Serb Avenger if anyone did this to a kid that was mine, I would go and beat him with a baseball bat. For those who don't know, yes, he uses a toy cat as his "dead cat", but imagine the upset the kids must feel when he pops off with "imagine you go home and find out your PET CAT JUST DIED"
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 01:53:03 AM by Rubystars »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 01:53:16 AM »
I fail to see the relevance of any of this as an argument for the evolution of species.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 01:54:27 AM »
I fail to see the relevance of any of this as an argument for the evolution of species.

http://www.talkorigins.org

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 01:56:59 AM »
I get it. You are trying to make fun of the dead-cat story as an argument against the fossil record as we know it. I don't see how that bolsters the claim for evolution. You tell me, how many fossils are being created today, as we speak? Even when entire carcasses are artificially buried, how many fossils result from them? Are human bones that were buried as recently as 100 years ago preserved well?

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evolution war still rages 200 years after Darwin's birth
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2009, 02:04:17 AM »
I get it. You are trying to make fun of the dead-cat story as an argument against the fossil record as we know it. I don't see how that bolsters the claim for evolution. You tell me, how many fossils are being created today, as we speak? Even when entire carcasses are artificially buried, how many fossils result from them? Are human bones that were buried as recently as 100 years ago preserved well?

Usually fossils form over long periods of time after being buried. The way Ken Ham describes it isn't even close to what actually happens. A lot of fossils came out of the La Brea Tar Pits because the tar was able to bury the bones of the animals so they didn't decompose. Ancient sea bottoms or ancient lake beds contain fossils that settled in the silt at the bottom and were preserved. Other fossils occurred after landslides or other disasters buried them. Some "fossils" are actually whole animals trapped in amber such as ancient insects.

There probably are fossils forming today but it would be hard to know exactly where they are, because they're not where we can see them, since they're... buried!

Back to the dead cat thing. Replace "dead cat" with another family member and you see how sinister that really is. "Imagine you came home and found your mommy had died" "Dead mommy fossilizing, do not touch".


Sorry I missed part of your question so I'm editing to add more.
Some human bones do stay preserved for a long time. The conditions have to be right for a fossil to form.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 02:14:21 AM by Rubystars »