Interesting Article about Ovadia Yosefs opinion of smolmert.

[Muck DeFuslims]

I am not observant. I am poorly versed in Torah. So perhaps my opinion on this matter will be dismissed. But I will offer it for consideration anyway.

Let's assume we have two acknowledged Torah sages who often differ on what the proper Torah response should be regarding matters of political decisions the Israeli government must make.

For convenience we will call Torah sage A, Rav Kahane. We will call Torah sage B, Rav Yosef.

With the benefit of time and hindsight we come to realize that Rav Kahane's interpretation of Torah Law - in regards to political decisions - proves to be more beneficial to Israel and the Jewish People than Rav Yosef's. Indeed, over the course of time we discern a pattern that Rav Yosef's political decisions appear to oft times ultimately be detrimental to Israel's well being. We might even suspect that Rav Yosef's interpretation of Torah has been corrupted by material considerations and expediencies.

It is easy to see how an impartial observer could conclude that although Rav Yosef's knowledge of Torah must be respected, his political decisions which are supposedly based on that knowledge might not deserve the same respect.

At least that's the opinion of this non-observant Jew. I understand why it might not carry any weight with my observant brothers and sisters here.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I am not observant. I am poorly versed in Torah. So perhaps my opinion on this matter will be dismissed. But I will offer it for consideration anyway.

Let's assume we have two acknowledged Torah sages who often differ on what the proper Torah response should be regarding matters of political decisions the Israeli government must make.

For convenience we will call Torah sage A, Rav Kahane. We will call Torah sage B, Rav Yosef.

With the benefit of time and hindsight we come to realize that Rav Kahane's interpretation of Torah Law - in regards to political decisions - proves to be more beneficial to Israel and the Jewish People than Rav Yosef's. Indeed, over the course of time we discern a pattern that Rav Yosef's political decisions appear to oft times ultimately be detrimental to Israel's well being. We might even suspect that Rav Yosef's interpretation of Torah has been corrupted by material considerations and expediencies.

It is easy to see how an impartial observer could conclude that although Rav Yosef's knowledge of Torah must be respected, his political decisions which are supposedly based on that knowledge might not deserve the same respect.

At least that's the opinion of this non-observant Jew. I understand why it might not carry any weight with my observant brothers and sisters here.

 No one is asking you or anyone else to accept the halahic decision of every single Rav. All their is asked is for their to be some respect. And 2- Even what many think is the Halahic decision of this particular Rav is also NOT true and is a twist of what the Rav really stands for.
  Just look at the evil interpretation and spinn of an article that has a Rav mentioning thanks (Hakarat Hatov) to someone who did something good (and we as Jews have to give credit, thanks and encouragement to all for the good that they do no matter how and what other bad things they do).
  The slanderers went from a Rabbi saying thanks for supporting Yeshivot, to making it as is the Rav now supports Olmert to the be king of Israel or something.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Okay guys, this is getting out of control here. I was very careful to avoid any kind of insults--I just said what is public fact--that it seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government and that he receives enormous funding for his yeshivas whenever he makes a halachic ruling that supports the government position. Why do ROY and his party, Shas, receive so much more funding for their yeshivas than HaRav Cook, HaRav Dov Lior, HaRav Eliyahu, etc.? Do you really all think that it is unreasonable to surmise that because the three latter-mentioned Rebbes do NOT consistently tow the Bolshevik government line, they don't get the funding that Shas does?

I am very familiar with the rules of the forum. It's against the rules to INSULT Torah scholars, not to question their decisions and motives. Somebody said that it is impermissible to even disagree with the Torah interpretation of a "Torah Scholar". That's absolutely ridiculous and borderline idolatrous (I know full well Judaism does not support deifying anybody) and even as a Gentile I know that that is not actually found in Judaism. Moreover, the person who made that statement has often made attacks on the Catholic definition of papal authority, which is little different than the way he defined the authority of a Torah Scholar.

Some people said that it couldn't possibly be known that land-for-peace endangers Jewish lives back in the early 90s. Gimme a break guys. After Egypt handed over the Sinai, the PLO began launching lethal attacks out of Lebanon and started the Second Intifada. It was always obvious. How can a brilliant Torah genius not have understanding of the realities of life in Israel, particularly if you all say that he has to be a shrewd political pragmatist in order to survive in the Holy Land? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth!

EDIT: It seems oddly coincidental that the Shas interior minister wanted Chaim kept out of Israel considering that Chaim's main target audience, at that time, would have been ultra-religious Sephardi youth who traditionally follow Shas by default. Hmmm, I wonder if Shas feared that Chaim would get huge and take all of their votes.

[Spectator]

It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government

In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

But since then he has continued to voice support for the Israeli government in general and still to this day believes in land-for-peace in theory, if he is "really convinced" it will save Jewish lives. He has never once taken that back. How can we forget when ROY, a year ago, called Shimon Peres "a friend of Torah Judaism" shortly before receiving a very generous check for his yeshivas?

[Zelhar]

ROY is not above selling voting power for shekels and meddling in all sort of political activities. Therefore he is not above criticism when it comes to his politics and vote selling. I think he is a terrible political leader. He is not just a spiritual leader, he is The sole and final decider in his party on every important issue.

[Zelhar]

It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government

In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.

[Spectator]

It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government

In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.

Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.

Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:

Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

[Zelhar]

It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government

In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.

Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.

Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:

Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

If only he was consistent with this opinion.

[Spectator]

What I like about Rabbi Yosef is his lack of political correctness. 

In March 2000, shortly before Purim, Rabbi Yosef attacked then-Education Minister and Meretz Party chairman Yossi Sarid. Yosef referred to Sarid as "the 'Dark Side", a term synonymous in Jewish parlance with the demonic realm of existence. Rabbi Yosef continued, saying, "He is Satan, may his name and memory be erased. How long do we have to suffer this wicked man? G-d will extirpate him, the way He will extirpate Amalek. Cursed is Haman, cursed is Yossi Sarid. He will be uprooted from the seed of Israel. Just as revenge was wrought on Haman, so it will be wrought on him." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

(Yossi Sarid was then the leader of the pro-Arab and pro-gay/lesbian extremist Meretz party)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government

In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.

Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.

Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:

Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

If only he was consistent with this opinion.

 He is, the only reason you think otherwise is because of the great magnitude of lashon hara that has been spread again and again agains't him (making him look like a leftist). When some repeat and repeat something wrong and not only the wrong things but also the twists and spinns that they pull, people begin to accept and believe what is said. (That is how propoganda works).

[Zelhar]

It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government

In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.

Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.

Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:

Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

If only he was consistent with this opinion.

 He is, the only reason you think otherwise is because of the great magnitude of lashon hara that has been spread again and again agains't him (making him look like a leftist). When some repeat and repeat something wrong and not only the wrong things but also the twists and spinns that they pull, people begin to accept and believe what is said. (That is how propoganda works).

He is consistent in his opinion that surrendering Israel piecemeal is acceptable if it keeps the Arabs pacified for a while. That is why he supported surrendering the Sinai, the Oslo accords, the Hebron accords, and the Wye plantation accord.

[Lisa]

Tzvi, do you personally think it's OK to give up Jewish land for so-called Peace with the Arabs? 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What I like about Rabbi Yosef is his lack of political correctness. 

In March 2000, shortly before Purim, Rabbi Yosef attacked then-Education Minister and Meretz Party chairman Yossi Sarid. Yosef referred to Sarid as "the 'Dark Side", a term synonymous in Jewish parlance with the demonic realm of existence. Rabbi Yosef continued, saying, "He is Satan, may his name and memory be erased. How long do we have to suffer this wicked man? G-d will extirpate him, the way He will extirpate Amalek. Cursed is Haman, cursed is Yossi Sarid. He will be uprooted from the seed of Israel. Just as revenge was wrought on Haman, so it will be wrought on him." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

(Yossi Sarid was then the leader of the pro-Arab and pro-gay/lesbian extremist Meretz party)

But then he turned around and called Shimon Peres (y"s), a ferociously pro-faggot leader, a huge friend of Torah Judaism. My guess is that Sarid wanted to cut subsidies to Shas institutions.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi, do you personally think it's OK to give up Jewish land for so-called Peace with the Arabs? 

NO.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Tzvi, her question to you was completely fair. Your getting angry at her is uncalled for. You have often said that "the anti-Zionist halachic position is a perfectly legitimate one" and defended and complimented the Satmar sect. That, combined with your posts in this thread, are legitimate basis to make someone wonder.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi, her question to you was completely fair. Your getting angry at her is uncalled for. You have often said that "the anti-Zionist halachic position is a perfectly legitimate one" and defended and complimented the Satmar sect. That, combined with your posts in this thread, are legitimate basis to make someone wonder.

 I wasn't angry actually. And how in the world would you know that?
 
   Once again you do not know what you are talking about, I dont know how your brain functions, but by seeing your posts I would like to recommend you to stay out of any Jewish related subjects and topics, you take everything the wrong way.

[Muck DeFuslims]

"He is consistent in his opinion that surrendering Israel piecemeal is acceptable if it keeps the Arabs pacified for a while. That is why he supported surrendering the Sinai, the Oslo accords, the Hebron accords, and the Wye plantation accord. "

If Rav Yosef did offer his support for the political decisions mentioned above, it seems to me he has some explaining to do.

One would assume that members of Shas (and people outside of Shas) asked the Rav how he justified his support for these political accords.

I'm certain Rav Yosef didn't say 'these decisions don't exactly jibe with what the Torah would advise us to do, but we need funding, so let's go for it anyway'.

He must have given Torah inspired reasoning which made his support for these actions permissable.

Does the Torah support 'land for peace' under certain circumstances ? Or does it rule it out entirely ?  I don't know with any certainty.

Since I'm ignorant about these matters I wouldn't feel qualified to comment about Rav Yosef's reasoning, interpretations or justifications. But I'd still like to hear what they were.

The bottom line question here is - does Rav Yosef support political actions that seemingly contradict Torah when it benefits Shas ?

Some might consider it disrespectful to ask such a question, but I think it needs to be asked. And honestly answered. 

[Lisa]

I also think it's a fair question to ask.

[Nadav]

And who can honestly answer that question other than the Rav himself? NO ONE!

Don't argue just for the sake of arguing. There needs to be some substance. Which is why this thread went down the toilet many pages ago.

[Lisa]

Nadav has a point about where this thread is going.  So DownwithIslam, why not try and find out when R.O.Y. might be speaking in New York, then go and see him? I'm sure he'll be happy to take questions.  This way, you can have closure, when he answers your questions.  The the thing is, right now, this stuff seems to be eating away at you. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lisa, he had every right to post a news item about ROY. He is one of the biggest rabbis in Israel and his name came up again. He has a high opinion of Olmert, and Shimon Peres, who both happen to be in favor of funding Shas at a high level. That's fair to discuss.

[Lisa]

Lisa, he had every right to post a news item about ROY. He is one of the biggest rabbis in Israel and his name came up again. He has a high opinion of Olmert, and Shimon Peres, who both happen to be in favor of funding Shas at a high level. That's fair to discuss.

I agree, C.F.  But since DownwithIslam feels so strongly about R.O.Y., I think it would be a good idea for him try and see the Rabbi, and to find out what ROY has to say. 

Because as it is now, these types of threads just turn into arguments between you and DWI, on the one hand, and the more observant Jews.  We never end up changing each others minds, and the threads just end up getting locked.  So that's why I'm saying DownwithIslam should take some action by trying to meet with ROY in person. 

If I hear of ROY coming to speak in Manhattan, I'll let you all know. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yeah, I wish he would change his mind and go see ROY and tell him what his concerns are. (DownwithIslam I mean.) Being in California I can't readily do that, but certainly would.