DOES A SECULAR JEW HAVE A PLACE IN THE JTF MOVEMENT ?

[Muck DeFuslims]

DOES A SECULAR JEW HAVE A PLACE IN THE JTF MOVEMENT ?

I am quoting Chaim from another recently locked thread:

"I do want to clarify that we in JTF will not kill Jewish traitors or break any laws. For the same reason that the rabbi had: it is not worth it for us to go to prison over this. But under Torah law, self-hating Jews do deserve death. We in JTF will not do anything to the traitors and we urge our fellow Jews not to risk imprisonment because it is not worth it."

Chaim, forgive me if I am misinterpreting this or reading too much into it, but the implication of your post seems clear. Reading between the lines, what your quote implies to me, is that we will not kill Jewish traitors and self-hating Jews at this time because it's not worth it - but that will change when JTF takes power. When the risk of going to prison is gone, we will kill self-hating Jews.

Now, as a secular Jew, I do not consider myself a traitor or self-hating.  But I can see how in a strictly Torah observant Israel I would be considered as such.

I can envision a world in which I would be killed by the Goyim for being a Jew, and killed by a Torah observant Israel for not being Jewish enough.

You recently quoted a despicable former education minister of Israel as saying, "Everytime I see religious Jews, I understand the need for a holocaust." 

Well, I dont want to be a victim of those who see the need for a holocaust everytime they see a non-observant Jew.

I don't necessarily consider non-observant Jews traitors or self-hating, but I suspect there are some here who do.

I realize the issue of transforming Israel into a Jewish state, rather than a state for Jews is a difficult one.

Perhaps a secular Jew has no place in the JTF movement. I don't know.

I am still certain that only a Kahanist political ideology can save Israel and the Jewish people from self destruction.

Please forgive me if I am being overly sensitive, paranoid or misintepreting Chaim's post.

What do you guys think ?  Does a secular Jew have a place here ?

[Lisa]

Well I'm not all that observant, and I'm an admin.

I think there's a difference between secular Jews and the self hating Jews Chaim was referring to.  The Peace Now Jews are an example of self-hating Jews.  That guy Honlohoho from Peace Now, who posts on ZooTube is a typical example.  On his zoo tube page, he wrote a while back that the so-called "settlers" in Israel should be gassed to death.  Chaim gave him trouble about that, and he removed that from his page. 

There's a world of difference between a secular Jew and self hating traitor Jews like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, that so-called left wing rabbi from Tikkun, Anna Balzer and others.  These people actively work for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. 

Hope that clarifies things. 

[Lisa]

Oh and one more example of a self hating Jewish traitor is that pig Adam Shapiro, who heads up the International Solidarity Movement.  Don't even think of comparing yourself to these wastes of protoplasm. 

[muman613]

My response to Muck is please don't resent the Jewish faith. There is nothing but peace and eternal reward for those who join the Jews as we enter the age of Moshiach. I certainly don't want to see any of my fellow Jews killed in order to remove the evil from our midst. The approach of the lenient aspect of observant Judaism believes that all Jews will willingly become observant out of love of our Father in the heavens. The miracles which have been performed and the more awesome miracles of the coming age will make those with a Jewish soul know that redemption is at hand. Who would reject the gift which the Jewish people are going to receive.

What will ensure the Jewish presence in Israel will be observance of our Torah. This promise is contained in the very Torah which religious Jews hold dear. It is not too hard to observe Shabbat if you have friends who can help you. Please study the coming Purim holiday which occurs this Tuesday and learn that when Jews are threatened, by strengthening our faith in Hashem we are assured victory against all enemies.

I think Chaim is looking forward to the era of Moshiach as much as I do. The problem is that our people have fallen to a very low level. We will be redeemed and I pray we live to see the temple rebuilt.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muck, there is different between being secular and being self-hating. There are many secular Jews and Christians alike on JTF. By "self-hating Jew" Chaim clearly means traitors who actually join the Nazis of the world in trying to kill their own people, like the aforementioned Adam Shapiro (ys"vz). The fact that you are at JTF proves that you are not a self-hater. If you were, you would have detested us to begin with. You have absolutely nothing to fear.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Yes, there is a place for secular Jews in JTF.

And you certainly are not a self-hating Jew or a traitor, G-d forbid. You are a good Jew and we love you which is why we want you to become observant. But we will not force Jews to be observant if we take power.

There will be changes however, especially in the educational system. And we certainly want all Jews to become Torah observant.

So how can we achieve our goal without forcing people? That sounds like a good question for this week's Ask JTF.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Well I'm not all that observant, and I'm an admin.

I think there's a difference between secular Jews and the self hating Jews Chaim was referring to.  The Peace Now Jews are an example of self-hating Jews.  That guy Honlohoho from Peace Now, who posts on ZooTube is a typical example.  On his zoo tube page, he wrote a while back that the so-called "settlers" in Israel should be gassed to death.  Chaim gave him trouble about that, and he removed that from his page. 

There's a world of difference between a secular Jew and self hating traitor Jews like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, that so-called left wing rabbi from Tikkun, Anna Balzer and others.  These people actively work for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. 

Hope that clarifies things. 

Hi Lisa, that was an excellent explaination. I believe myself that Hashem will judge us accordingly. I am not as observant as I should be, however I want the enemies of Israel to be destroyed. No words could possible describe my intense hatred for Moslems and those Jews who wish to destroy Israel by giving it to the Moslems. While Hashem might punish me for some things ( which I think I have recieved punishment in this life ) Hashem will weight all the mitzvah's and zadaka I have done in my life and then he will see fit to give me what I deserve be it good or bad. Your explaination made a lot of sense to me and goes along with what I personally believe. Thanks for the explaination...even though it was not my question. I am glad that Muck posted this.

                                                                       Shalom - Dox

[Muck DeFuslims]

Thanks, Lisa.

No, of course I wouldn't compare myself to vermin like Adam Shapiro and the other creeps you mentioned. They're outright enemies of Israel, Judaism, and the Jewish people.

What I'm talking about is less clear cut cases.

For example, you mentioned that you're not 'all that' observant. In a strictly Torah observant Israel, it's possible that although you're obviously not in the same category of an Adam Shapiro, you nonetheless might be deemed as self-hating or a traitor, for what some could consider to be a minor transgression of, or not strictly adhering to, Torah law.

Maybe not wearing a shawl to cover your hair in public. Maybe not keeping kosher. Maybe not observing Shabbat.

The point is, the exact definition of what a traitor or self-hating Jew is can vary and become muddled depending on one's outlook.

In the 'We are obligated to curse Jewish traitors' thread (that unfortunately became a flame war and had to be locked) I asked - could I be killed for driving a car on Shabbot - and Muman said he thought the answer was yes. He's probably right. One can easily see how this could be extended to those that don't keep kosher, etc.

What I'm saying is that I think you're a wonderful person and a very good Jew even if you're 'not all that observant'. I've read enough of your posts to know you have a beautiful Jewish heart and soul. There's no possible way you could be considered a traitor or self-hater by any reasonable person.

But in a strictly Torah observant state my sentiments might not be shared and you might suffer dire consequences as a result.

(While I was typing this I see some other very nice and thoughtful responses were posted. Thanks to you all.)

[Muck DeFuslims]

My response to Muck is please don't resent the Jewish faith.

Muman, let me assure you I don't resent, nor could I ever resent the Jewish faith.

On the contrary, I love the Jewish faith and deeply admire my religious brothers and sisters. When I see religious Jews, I feel love and gratitude. I know I wouldn't be here, that we as Jews wouldn't be here, were it not for the keepers of the faith.

No, I love Judaism. I love Jewish culture. I love the Jewish people.

My problem is I don't have absolute faith. I wish I did, but I don't. There are times I feel that G-d must exist, and there are other times when I have my doubts.

As a child and young man I attended Hebrew school in NYC. I didn't keep Shabbot, but I went to an orthodox synagogue on the high holidays. My fondest memories are of times I spent with family at Passover seders at my maternal grandparent's home. I grew up in a Brooklyn neighborhood that was almost exclusively Jewish.

I come from a background that gave me every opportunity to be a better Jew, a more observant Jew. I am a Cohaine. But somehow, I have drifted away from the Jewish faith. Yet I have always maintained an intense pride of being a Jew and will forever have the deepest love for Israel and the Jewish nation.

I could never resent the Jewish faith.   

[Zelhar]

Well I am a disbeliever Jew. But one has to admit that our people's future can only be secured by our brothers and sisters who keep the faith and observe the mitzvot.

[AsheDina]

  I am a MAVERICK Jewess and I LOVE G-d FIERCELY, and BIGTIME- and I wish I did even MORE. People get ANGRY with me b/c I have a Christian backgroud as well, being Marrano/Crypto (I dont really CARE what people think about this, HaShem KNOWS MY HEART) People of BOTH faiths almost DEMAND my renouncing, and all the more reason to FIGHT (tee hee)- HOWEVER, Lisa, Dox, Muck, Zelhar are RIGHTEOUS people! PERIOD!
 
  Yes, I want ALL JEWS to turn TOTALLY to TORAH, as this anti-semitism is OUT OF HAND, and HaShem is the ONLY salvation. But this is NOT something to force upon people.

  All I know, is that HASHEM LOVES YOU ALL VERY MUCH.

Here is a poem I wrote to G-d:

Color Wine and Grace

If I spent Eternity, looking for your face...
My Life would be filled, with Color, Wine and Grace.
If I sought, and found, the One I hold Dear, Your Name and Soul, would
be so clear.
If I could create, an image of the sky, I would see you standing,
seeing eye to eye.
You would see through, my heart, soul, and mind.
Your words, would be always, ever gentle, and kind.
You are the melody, you are the song, and in my heart...You will
always belong.
Paulette
Copyright ©2009



 

 
 
 
 
 

 

[briann]

I know that a majority of secular Jews follow the religion of self-hatred and Liberalism

BUT!!!! There are also Secular Jews (Smaller percentage) that are very Pro-Israel, Zionist, hate Muslims, and feel more comfortable around religious Jews... but they themselves are just not very religious in their nature.

These people SHOULD be allowed to stay (or join)