Lashon Hara/Gossip

[Lisa]

Hi everyone,

I have a question for you guys.  Lashon hara is the Hebrew equivalent of gossip, which I don't care for.  Now some people have said to me that it's not gossip unless you're talking to a family member, or a good friend.   Here are two examples. 

During Rosh Hashana, I was walking to the Synagogue with my mother and my sister when my mother casually said that my sister's good friend looked as fat as a bear.  Mind you, this friend is not, and has never been fat.  She just went from being a size 2 to a size 4.  But my mother's reasoning is that it's no big deal since she's just confiding to family. 

I'll give you another example as well.  I have a friend who is a busy body.  She was talking about a woman (who I'll refer to a K.) I'm acquainted with who recently got engaged to a younger Israeli guy.  This busy body friend implied that the reason K. managed to snag a younger Israeli guy was because of what she was doing in bed with him.  (She was more graphic in her description, but I'll leave that out for here.) 

Anyway, I told my friend that what K. with her boyfriend is not my business, and that I'm really not interested in hearing this kind of thing.  I pointed out that this guy surely liked K., which is why he proposed to her.  So then my friend got defensive and she said "well we're good friends, which is why I'm telling you this." 

Now personally I still think that counts as lashon hara/gossip.  So what would you say to people like this who come up with excuses for their gossiping?

Thanks.

[muman613]

It sounds definately to me to be Lashon Hara. This is the act of saying something derogatory about another person. Lashon Hara is not saying something that is untrue, it is always saying something true but derogatory. There are only two exceptions to saying something negative about someone.

I will find the relevant halacha...

From Torah.org:
http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/index.php3

 Commandments

The Chafetz Chaim lists 31 mitzvot which may be violated when a person speaks or listens to Lashon Hara. This is a staggering number. Even though one does not generally violate them all in one shot, it is important to remember how carelessness can lead one into deeper trouble.

The central prohibition against unethical speech is Leviticus 19:16 - "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha" -- do not go about as a talebearer among your people. [FYI: Rashi's commentary on this verse is a "classic." He discusses the origins of the word rachil (a roving merchant), and a few divergent ideas about the Hebrew language.]

This verse in Leviticus applies equally to Rechilut and Lashon Hara (abbr.: L"H). The Chafetz Chaim gives their exact definitions later on, but for clarity we should mention them here:

    * Lashon Hara - any derogatory or damaging (physically, financially, socially, or stress-inducing) communication.
    * Rechilut - any communication that generates animosity between people.

Rechilut is often the repeating of Lashon Hara. For example, Reuven tells Shimon that Levi is ugly (Reuven spoke L"H), and then Shimon tells Levi what Reuven said about him. Shimon probably made Levi angry with Reuven, which is Rechilut.

Although Rechilut seems more obviously derived from the verse, both as a cognate (rachil/rechilut) and a concept (talebearer), the Torah is prohibiting any type of harmful or negative speech in this commandment.

There are several other commandments that directly address "gossip":

    * Deut. 24:8 - "Take heed concerning the plague of leprosy" because it is a punishment of Lashon Hara.
    * Deut. 24:9 - "Remember what the L-rd your G-d did unto Miriam by the way as you came forth out of Egypt." Specifically, she spoke against her brother Moses.
    * Lev. 25:17 - "You shall not wrong one another" which the Talmud (Bava Metzia 58b) explains that this means saying anything that will insult or anger someone.
    * Deut. 19:15 - "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin" because, unlike in a court for monetary matters, the testimony of a solitary witness is not binding, so that his testimony damages the defendant's reputation without any beneficial result.

Several other commandments are more general, yet in certain circumstances apply when Lashon Hara or Rechilut is spoken:

    * Ex. 23:1 - "You shall not utter a false report." Acceptance of a false report also follows from this.
    * Lev. 19:14 - "Before the blind do not place a stumbling block." This applies to both the speaker and the listener since they are helping each other violate the commandments.
    * Lev. 19:12 - "You shall not hate your brother in your heart," referring to contradictory behavior such as acting friendly but then speaking negatively about him behind his back.
    * Lev. 19:18 - "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the children of your people," such as speaking against someone in anger and for something that was done against the speaker.
    * Lev. 19:17 - "You shall rebuke your neighbor and you shall not bear sin because of him." This verse contains two mitzvot: (1) stop someone from speaking Lashon Hara (among other interpretations), and (2) don't embarrass him in the process. (Note: rebuke is not a simple topic, especially because the one being scolded may not always listen. This is covered in some detail in the second section of the book, Hilchot Rechilut.)
    * Lev. 19:18 - "Love your neighbor as yourself."
    * Num. 17:5 - "You shall not act similar to Korach and his company" who sustained a dispute.
    * Deut. 10:20 - "To Him [and (by implication) his wise ones] shall you cleave."
    * Ex. 23:2 - "You shall not follow a multitude to do evil." The above two commandments refer to keeping good company, which includes those who will refrain from improper subjects in their discussions.

If you've been counting, you'll realize that there are still a good number of commandments that we haven't mentioned yet. To see the complete list, please see the Sefer Chafetz Chaim or its English adaptation, Guard Your Tongue, by Rabbi Z. Pliskin.

It is certainly good to be aware of the various mitzvot. However, the halachot discussed in the Chafetz Chaim are more specific, basically revolving around "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha," "B'tzedek tishpot et amiteicha," and "hocheiach tochiach et amiteicha." The Chafetz Chaim delineates different situations and conditions, and identifies when the speech is forbidden, permissible, and even desirable.

[Lisa]

I agree Muman.  Now what would I say to busy body people who rationalize it by saying it doesn't count if you just keep it between friends and family? 

[muman613]

Do not listen to lashon Hara, it is a violation of mitzvot to even hear it. Either have them change the subject or leave the room.

[muman613]

I agree Muman.  Now what would I say to busy body people who rationalize it by saying it doesn't count if you just keep it between friends and family? 

They obviously must deny that at all times Hashem hears everything.

[muman613]

More specifically from the Guidelines:

It's Lashon Hara EVEN IF:
# it's true
# a listener pressures the speaker to tell
# names are left out
# it's about the speaker's family
# the speaker includes himself in the derogatory description

Lashon Hara expresses itself in many forms. Lashon Hara can be factual, such as stating that someone violated a commandment. Or it can be subjective, such as discussing whether someone is intelligent, attractive, generous, etc. This type is often worse since listeners often readily accept an unverifiable opinion. Sometimes whether something is Lashon Hara depends on the situation: reporting that someone gave a certain amount for a donation can be derogatory when said about a wealthy person but positive when applied to one who has lesser means.

Some kinds of statements are not about individuals explicitly, but are Lashon Hara nonetheless. Insulting someone's possessions ultimately insults the owner as well. Degrading groups of people reflects unfavorably upon each member of the group.

It doesn't even have to be speech - any means of communicating derogatory or damaging information falls under the definition of Lashon Hara.

[SavetheWest]

More specifically from the Guidelines:

It's Lashon Hara EVEN IF:
# it's true
# a listener pressures the speaker to tell
# names are left out
# it's about the speaker's family
# the speaker includes himself in the derogatory description

Lashon Hara expresses itself in many forms. Lashon Hara can be factual, such as stating that someone violated a commandment. Or it can be subjective, such as discussing whether someone is intelligent, attractive, generous, etc. This type is often worse since listeners often readily accept an unverifiable opinion. Sometimes whether something is Lashon Hara depends on the situation: reporting that someone gave a certain amount for a donation can be derogatory when said about a wealthy person but positive when applied to one who has lesser means.

Some kinds of statements are not about individuals explicitly, but are Lashon Hara nonetheless. Insulting someone's possessions ultimately insults the owner as well. Degrading groups of people reflects unfavorably upon each member of the group.

It doesn't even have to be speech - any means of communicating derogatory or damaging information falls under the definition of Lashon Hara.

What about someone like Yasser Arafat?  Is it ok to talk about someone if they are an enemy?

[muman613]

More specifically from the Guidelines:

It's Lashon Hara EVEN IF:
# it's true
# a listener pressures the speaker to tell
# names are left out
# it's about the speaker's family
# the speaker includes himself in the derogatory description

Lashon Hara expresses itself in many forms. Lashon Hara can be factual, such as stating that someone violated a commandment. Or it can be subjective, such as discussing whether someone is intelligent, attractive, generous, etc. This type is often worse since listeners often readily accept an unverifiable opinion. Sometimes whether something is Lashon Hara depends on the situation: reporting that someone gave a certain amount for a donation can be derogatory when said about a wealthy person but positive when applied to one who has lesser means.

Some kinds of statements are not about individuals explicitly, but are Lashon Hara nonetheless. Insulting someone's possessions ultimately insults the owner as well. Degrading groups of people reflects unfavorably upon each member of the group.

It doesn't even have to be speech - any means of communicating derogatory or damaging information falls under the definition of Lashon Hara.

What about someone like Yasser Arafat?  Is it ok to talk about someone if they are an enemy?

These rules in general don't apply to an enemy of the Jewish people. Obviously in Judaism the mitzvah of saving lives {Pikuie Nefesh} over-rides all other concerns, even Shabbat.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Ok, I am guilty in the past of doing lashon hara. But now my focus is on being good and not repeating my sins, About the enemy, yes I want them dead!!!  Now back to lashon hara, I adore my family and my family adores me, but our family whines and complains about each other constantly for example : My mom will complain about her sisters, they did this or that and hurt her feelings. I try to console her by agreeing with her that what they did was not right. Then my mom's sisters complain about how she hurt their feelings, then I attempt to console them by saying I know how Mom is and she won't change but she can't help herself because she is old and is losing her memorie.
Is this lashon hara too? Listening to the family cry about how one hurt the others feelings? In consoling my Aunts or Mother am I commiting lashon hara or just trying to diffuse the situation so they calm down, or am I being 2 faced so that each person can be happy?  I just don't know what to do so I am asking for your opinions. Thank you for any advise given.

                                                                   Shalom - Dox

P.S. How can I tell them not to condemn or complain without making them feel like I don't care about their worries?
                                                         

[Lisa]

Republican Dox,

Why don't you tell your mother how you feel badly that she feels slighted by her sisters?  Then you can assure her that her sisters love her, and that they would never intentionally hurt her.  You could also tell her to talk it out with her sisters.  You can also tell you aunts the same thing. 

[SavetheWest]

More specifically from the Guidelines:

It's Lashon Hara EVEN IF:
# it's true
# a listener pressures the speaker to tell
# names are left out
# it's about the speaker's family
# the speaker includes himself in the derogatory description

Lashon Hara expresses itself in many forms. Lashon Hara can be factual, such as stating that someone violated a commandment. Or it can be subjective, such as discussing whether someone is intelligent, attractive, generous, etc. This type is often worse since listeners often readily accept an unverifiable opinion. Sometimes whether something is Lashon Hara depends on the situation: reporting that someone gave a certain amount for a donation can be derogatory when said about a wealthy person but positive when applied to one who has lesser means.

Some kinds of statements are not about individuals explicitly, but are Lashon Hara nonetheless. Insulting someone's possessions ultimately insults the owner as well. Degrading groups of people reflects unfavorably upon each member of the group.

It doesn't even have to be speech - any means of communicating derogatory or damaging information falls under the definition of Lashon Hara.

What about someone like Yasser Arafat?  Is it ok to talk about someone if they are an enemy?

These rules in general don't apply to an enemy of the Jewish people. Obviously in Judaism the mitzvah of saving lives {Pikuie Nefesh} over-rides all other concerns, even Shabbat.

Thanks Muman.  You have a really great knowledge of Judaism. 

[GoIsraelGo!]

Thanks Lisa, that is some excellent advise. You really have some good wisdom there! Too bad I didn't think of that for myself, but when you get carried away with negative family troubles, it's kind of hard to sort out your own thoughts.
Thanks again, will try that.



                                                           Shalom - Dox       : )

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lisa, generally people don't spread gossip about people they don't dislike.

Is there a reason why your mother dislikes your sister's good friend or your gossipy friend dislikes Ms. K or her younger Israeli boyfriend?

[Lisa]

Lisa, generally people don't spread gossip about people they don't dislike.

Is there a reason why your mother dislikes your sister's good friend or your gossipy friend dislikes Ms. K or her younger Israeli boyfriend?

C.F. I can't think of any reason why my mother would dislike my sister's friend.  This woman has been a great friend to my sister. 

As for my gossipy friend, I think she's just jealous of this other woman.  This friend is also one of those constantly complaining types. 

[Shlomo]

Do not listen to lashon Hara, it is a violation of mitzvot to even hear it. Either have them change the subject or leave the room.

It is not a violation to hear it (or see it since pictures can be lashon hora since they can depict someone in certain manner). There is no way, especially in our day and age, to isolate ourselves from lashon hora when the news, magazines, internet, textbooks, and more all contain huge amounts of lashon hora.

It is a violation to believe it or take part in it.

Also, if a person is very upset and absolutely needs to get something off their chest (i.e. with their spouse, family member, counselor) and cannot help but talk to someone, they are required to say that they are upset and not to believe what they spoke because it's one sided and biased.

Also, it is not lashon hora if the person is an evil traitor.

I studied this in depth and Chofetz Chaim is one of my favorites (which is why he is quoted in my tagline).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lisa, I think you hit the nail on the head. Your mother is resentful about something regarding your sister's friend and the same is true of this gossipy (chismosa in Spanish--a new word for you  ) friend of yours. The question is why they are jealous people now.