Author Topic: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited  (Read 8132 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« on: March 24, 2009, 09:33:29 PM »
Using a new type of brain imaging, researchers have shown that intelligence is strongly influenced by the quality of axon myelination, a genetic trait. It looks like more bad news for the "everyone is created equal" crowd.


ScienceDaily (Mar. 18, 2009) — They say a picture tells a thousand stories, but can it also tell how smart you are? Actually, say UCLA researchers, it can.



In a study published recently in the Journal of Neuroscience, UCLA neurology professor Paul Thompson and colleagues used a new type of brain-imaging scanner to show that intelligence is strongly influenced by the quality of the brain's axons, or wiring that sends signals throughout the brain. The faster the signaling, the faster the brain processes information. And since the integrity of the brain's wiring is influenced by genes, the genes we inherit play a far greater role in intelligence than was previously thought.

Genes appear to influence intelligence by determining how well nerve axons are encased in myelin — the fatty sheath of "insulation" that coats our axons and allows for fast signaling bursts in our brains. The thicker the myelin, the faster the nerve impulses.

Thompson and his colleagues scanned the brains of 23 sets of identical twins and 23 sets of fraternal twins. Since identical twins share the same genes while fraternal twins share about half their genes, the researchers were able to compare each group to show that myelin integrity was determined genetically in many parts of the brain that are key for intelligence. These include the parietal lobes, which are responsible for spatial reasoning, visual processing and logic, and the corpus callosum, which pulls together information from both sides of the body.

The researchers used a faster version of a type of scanner called a HARDI (high-angular resolution diffusion imaging) — think of an MRI machine on steroids — that takes scans of the brain at a much higher resolution than a standard MRI. While an MRI scan shows the volume of different tissues in the brain by measuring the amount of water present, HARDI tracks how water diffuses through the brain's white matter — a way to measure the quality of its myelin.

"HARDI measures water diffusion," said Thompson, who is also a member of the UCLA Laboratory of Neuro-Imaging. "If the water diffuses rapidly in a specific direction, it tells us that the brain has very fast connections. If it diffuses more broadly, that's an indication of slower signaling, and lower intelligence."

"So it gives us a picture of one's mental speed," he said.

Because the myelination of brain circuits follows an inverted U-shaped trajectory, peaking in middle age and then slowly beginning to decline, Thompson believes identifying the genes that promote high-integrity myelin is critical to forestalling brain diseases like multiple sclerosis and autism, which have been linked to the breakdown of myelin.

"The whole point of this research," Thompson said, "is to give us insight into brain diseases."

He said his team has already narrowed down the number of gene candidates that may influence myelin growth.

And could this someday lead to a therapy that could make us smarter, enhancing our intelligence?

"It's a long way off but within the realm of the possible," Thompson said.

Offline SavetheWest

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 03:07:55 AM »
I think these studies can be very dangerous.  Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics?  It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons.  No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination.  Just my opinion though. 

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 03:12:36 AM »
I think these studies can be very dangerous.  Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics?  It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons.  No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination.  Just my opinion though. 

I agree...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MikeyChua

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 10:49:05 AM »
I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.

Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.

SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.

It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.

No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 11:16:15 AM by MikeyChua »

Offline Cato

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 11:32:43 AM »
I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.

Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.

SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.

It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.

No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.

Excellent post. As someone I knew once said, you should derive Morality from Genetics, not the other way around.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 11:43:47 AM »
Obviously people who are only concerned about one aspect of life are loosing out on the full experience of life. I know people who are all over the spectrum of intelligence. I dont only make friends with people who are of my intelligence level. It is wrong to only judge people based on one aspect, such as intelligence. Intelligence alone is not an admirable quality. As I have pointed out before, some of the smartest people have been brutal and immoral. There is no rule that those who are intelligent are immediately moral, is there?

Life is composed of much more than intelligence. Everything which Hashem created is here for a purpose, including dumb people. A wise person learns from everything around him. There is nothing gained by being arrogant and judgmental against those who don't share our traits. It is folly to believe that our intelligence is so great that we are superior to others. The fact is that the more you know, the less you really know.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:04:31 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 12:03:24 PM »
Time for dr dans logic:  take what you want from this artical. One cannot judge someone solely on their genetics.

If there were genes for intelligence it only might mean that person has the POTENTIAL to be a fast learner. The way one learns is if he is tought something. One is taught something by his teachers or environment and culture which he comes from.  Therefore no judgement should be made w someone with an "inferior" intellegence gene because he can learn the same things. But will take longer in the same environment. Muman is right in what he says also
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 12:06:19 PM »
I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post.  However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.  

It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups.  Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there.  I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF.  The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.  

So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.  

Acknowledging the differences is one thing.  However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.  

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 12:14:40 PM »
Based upon identical twins separated at birth... IQ is mostly genetic.  (I think there was a 2 point standard deviation)

HOWEVER.... being extremely malnutritioned... or growing up without being mentally challenged CAN hurt your intelligence.  This is PARTIALLY (Not mostly) why you see Sub-Saharan African nations with such unbelievably low IQ's.

So maybe 80% nature, 20% nurture.



Offline MikeyChua

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 12:17:24 PM »
Quote
Obviously people who are only concerned about one aspect of life are loosing out on the full experience of life. I know people who are all over the spectrum of intelligence. I dont only make friends with people who are of my intelligence level. It is wrong to only judge people based on one aspect, such as intelligence. Intelligence alone is not an admirable quality. As I have pointed out before, some of the smartest people have been brutal and immoral. There is no rule that those who are intelligent are immediately moral, is there?

Life is composed of much more than intelligence. Everything which Hashem created is here for a purpose, including dumb people. A wise person learns from everything around him. There is nothing gained by being arrogant and judgmental against those who don't share our traits. It is folly to believe that our intelligence is so great that we are superior to others. The fact is that the more you know, the less you really know.

PS: If Jews are so smart how come a majority of them voted for Hussein?

I will concede that there is a difference between being smart and being wise. The problem is that you are prepared to ignore all statistical evidence regarding intelligence. The fact is that intelligence is positively correlated to every aspect of social success, from financial to academic to lasting marriage. Likewise, intelligence is negatively correlated to every form of anti-social behavior, from criminality to illegitimacy to unemployment and welfare dependency. If you are so fond of low IQ Third-Worlders, perhaps you should try moving to one of their countries to further enjoy their culture. I would suggest Saudi Arabia but they have a smarter immigration policy. These Third-Worlders have never built successful societies of their own and they have nothing to contribute to ours. They are streaming into our countries and we are not moving to theirs for good reason. If you want to bring religion into this discussion, may I suggest a careful reading of the Tower of Babel to find out what Hashem intended.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 12:24:23 PM »
Interestingly enough there is an article on Torah.org about this study... I will post it below:


http://www.torah.org/features/nextgen/intelligence.html

"
Not Letting Intelligence Go To Our Heads
by Rabbi Avi Shafran

More than a few Jewish mouths curled into smiles at the recent news out of the University of Utah. Researchers there suggested that natural selection may have resulted in enhanced intellectual ability among Jews of Ashkenazic, or eastern European, background.

The theory was proposed in a paper published in Cambridge University's Journal of Biosocial Science that sought to better understand the prevalence of certain genetic disease among Ashkenazic Jews. It is accepted science that unfortunate genetic heritages, like the disproportionate occurrence of certain diseases, can reflect beneficial genetic legacies --in other words, that genes coding for such diseases may have persevered in the gene pool precisely because they code as well for some advantageous characteristic. Sickle-cell anemia, for instance, a hereditary disease markedly common among people of African ancestry, has long been linked to a gene that confers protection from malaria.

Might there be some hidden benefit, the researchers asked themselves, some fortunate "flip side," to the propensity for hereditary diseases like Tay-Sachs and Gaucher that are uncommonly common among Ashkenazic Jews? It turns out that those diseases (and two others disproportionately afflicting Ashkenazic Jews) affect cells' management of chemicals known as sphingolipids. And there is apparently some evidence that sphingolipid disorders promote the growth and interconnection of brain cells.

The Utah researchers posited that the roots of a connection between sphingolipid disorders and intelligence might lie in the fact that Jews were relentlessly persecuted in Europe for nearly a thousand years. Barred over those centuries from professions like farming and crafts, they were forced into managerial and commercial professions, which required more brain than brawn. Thus, the scientists hypothesized, those who survived long enough to leave more offspring (and to provide them their genetic legacy) were, increasingly, those of more formidable intellect.

The researchers might also have considered the fact that Jews have traditionally valued Torah-scholarship and, therefore, scholars -- who, too, may have lived longer as a result, and had more children to whom to pass their genes.

The entire theory, of course, is speculative. Although Harvard University cognitive scientist Steven Pinker called the paper "thorough and well-argued, not one that can easily be dismissed outright," others were less impressed. Dr. Andrew Clark, a population geneticist at Cornell University referred to the argument that sphingolipid disorders are associated with intelligence as "far-fetched." What is more, the theory does not address the formidable abilities of non-European Jews, like those whose roots lie in the Iberian Peninsula, North Africa or Arab lands, whose intellects and acumen are likewise well documented over history and readily apparent in the contemporary world.

Its veracity aside, though, the study's speculation is dangerous. Not because, as Professor Pinker put it, "It would be hard to overstate how politically incorrect this paper is." And not because it might give anti-Semites grist for their rants about Jews being "different" and, of course, plotting to take over the world. No, its danger lies in its potential to lead us Jews ourselves astray, by enticing us to view intellect as inherently important.

That Jews value intelligence is a truism, to be sure. Those of us who remain faithful to the Jewish religious tradition pray for wisdom, and consider the intellectually demanding study of Torah a high and holy calling. And even Jews who turn to other disciplines, more often than not, seek to exercise their gray matter rather than their biceps.

But neither logical thought nor creativity is what ultimately matters, at least from a truly Jewish perspective. Our religious tradition, to be sure, teaches us Jews that we have been chosen by G-d -- but we cannot know why, only what for: to serve Him.

The Torah does refer to the Jewish people as "a wise nation" but also as a stubborn one, and, at times, worse. Jewish tradition considers the Jews' ultimate saving grace to be its Biblical forebears' dedication to G-d. Similarly, the sages of the Talmud did not generally stress inherent abilities -- mental or otherwise -- but rather the choice to utilize whatever blessings we have. Their honorifics customarily ran not to words like "genius" or "brilliant" but to ones like "righteous" and "G-d fearing."

Brights are certainly useful, and even can even be meaningful, at least in a practical sort of way. So, though, can a host of other human traits, like artistic aptitude or musical talent. Anything -- even physical prowess, beauty or wealth -- can be turned to good use. It is, however, only their usefulness that makes them truly valuable. No inherent worth inheres in them; their value is in their potential, in their ability to be recruited for a higher purpose.

Modern society's world-view, of course, leaves precious little room for the idea of living to serve the Divine. Possessions -- both the materialistic and the less tangible sorts alike -- may be what the wider world celebrates. But that doesn't change the Jewish equation.

And so the recent study should not cause us Jews to smile. It should, rather, make us furrow our brows, in thoughtful consideration of the true import of intelligence.

It should impel us to teach our children, whether they are grappling with school, marriage or children of their own, that it isn't genius that most matters but generosity; not the clever who deserve praise but the conscientious. Let us teach them, in other words, to not let intelligence go to their heads, when only goodness, in the end, is important.

And let us internalize that truth, no less, ourselves.

Rabbi Shafran is director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America
"

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MikeyChua

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 12:32:13 PM »
Quote
I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post.  However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from. 

It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups.  Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there.  I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF.  The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil. 

So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture. 

Acknowledging the differences is one thing.  However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge. 

It saddens me that you would put words in my mouth and attribute to me ideas that I do not advocate. Of course, there is such a thing as free will. This free will, as my rabbi correctly asserts, determines whether or not we choose to perform mitzvas. We all make a conscious decision when we choose to do righteous or sinful acts. We do not, however, get to choose how tall we are, what color our eyes are, and yes, how smart we are. Sorry, but I will never be an Einstein no matter how hard I try.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 12:37:53 PM »
Of course I don't deny the findings of the study. I do believe that intelligence is genetic. Everyone in my family has been professionals and some have written books. But I am also happy to live in a world where there are people different that me.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 12:38:07 PM »
This is only half the story. What matters isn't just intelligence, but work ethic. Black culture values laziness and stupidity, so even the smart blacks act like gutter schvartzes. On the other hand, there are plenty of whites, Jews, and Asians of average intellect who get straight As simply because they work their rumps off.

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 12:45:11 PM »
Mikey, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  Maybe I missed something, but you see to be a strong believer in IQ, and how people with low IQ's engage in stupid, criminal and self-destructive behaviors.  I was only trying to point out what we all agree on here at JTF.  

So whereas you might attribute the high rate of black high school dropouts, illegitimacy, and criminality to low IQ, Chaim and others, who agree with you on the high drop out, illegitimacy and criminality rate of blacks, attribute it to the conscious desire to choose evil, due to laziness and resentment of whites.  

Mikey, no one here will disagree with you that blacks and other Third World minorities commit the vast amount of crimes, and have the highest rate of illegitimacy, etc.  We are adamantly against Third World immigrations to Western countries.  We're all in agreement that America CANNOT lose her white majority.  

The only difference of opinion here with other members is whether it's ALL about IQ and genetics.  

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 01:06:33 PM »
I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post.  However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.  

It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups.  Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there.  I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF.  The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.  

So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.  

Acknowledging the differences is one thing.  However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.  

Smart people of evil behavior can do a lot of harm.  Smartness does not mean superior..it's how one uses it.  I still maintain that this movment is about righteous and evil behavior and righteous and evil cultures.  Since human beings have free will, they are capable of choosing right from wrong (assuming they aren't ignorant.)
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2009, 01:28:49 PM »
I'm inclined to agree with much of MikeyChua's post.  However, I also understand where Muman and Savethewest are coming from.  

It's one thing to acknowledge differences between racial groups.  Whether it's genetic or whether it's about people freely choosing to engage in evil behavior, as Chaim believes, the differences are there.  I've met Mikey, he's a religious Jew, and a bright person who's a big fan of JTF.  The only disagreement he has with us is the belief that the evil behavior of Third World groups is due to IQ rather than the conscious desire to do evil.  

So whether it's all about IQ, or simply the free choice to engage in evil behavior, we need to look at the bigger picture.  

Acknowledging the differences is one thing.  However the important thing is what we decide to do with that knowledge.  

Smart people of evil behavior can do a lot of harm.  Smartness does not mean superior..it's how one uses it.  I still maintain that this movment is about righteous and evil behavior and righteous and evil cultures.  Since human beings have free will, they are capable of choosing right from wrong (assuming they aren't ignorant.)

But it's factual that the people of Africa have a lower IQ than the rest of the world, and look at the evil behavior they are engaged in daily?

Offline SavetheWest

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2009, 02:43:06 PM »
I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.

Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.

SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.

It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.

No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.

I don't know where you got the idea that I think the third world should immigrate to western countries or am on their side.  What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.  I saw a post a while ago that said that Sephardic Jews had lower IQ's than Ashkenazi Jews. It was a difference between 30 points or something.  Chaim rightly pointed out that Sephardic Jews have been hugely successful in the USA from business to science to education and that point has been used to attack Sephardic Jews by racists.  There are so many ways that these things could be used in the wrong way.  Even if there are differences between blacks and whites with IQ, it dehumanizes an entire race to say they are genetically stupid.  Should we tell Alan Keyes he is a monkey because of his genetics? How about blacks who pass the bar exam; I know it's not many but it does take high intelligence to do that. Why for instance, are Africans way more successful and have better families than American blacks? They have a British influenced education system and it's not acceptable to be a failure or drug dealer as much as it is in black American society. Nazis used to measure Jews heads and bodies to try to prove they were inferior.  What if a third world government decided to use these studies to show the physical inferiority of whites so they could justify killing them?  What if a government decides to kill anyone with black genes and you find out you have .0001 black in you and then are ordered to be killed?  It's possible that many people have ancestors that they don't know about from many differnet ethnicities but it means nothing to me. 
I also can't tell you how many people I've met with brilliant parents who are complete morons.
I'm sure there are many genetic differences that influence intelligence but I feel like we are writing the book for people before they are able to live their lives. 

You don't have to tell me the problems with black Americans and illegal Hispanics; I have the stolen goods and knives stuck in my face to prove it.
I also don't think everyone should be encouraged to mix with each other and create some huge beige race of people.  If they do despite it being discouraged; I'm not going to be angry at or hate the children of those people.  My belief on why Jews are smart is because G-d blessed them with knowledge and Jews have a history of reading, studying, education and seeking knowledge.  You look at Latin or black culture and they just don't care about these things and embrace immorality; that's why they have so many problems.

Having millions of uneducated people who have no loyalty to these Western countries and are from the cradle to grave immoral and anti-American, is suicidal.  I don't want anyone from the third world coming to America, Europe, or Australia.  America may have had a history of immigration but why Europe has an obligation to do this is beyond me.  America should let in mostly Europeans and very small numbers of educated Asians, Indians and others who are not Muslims.  They all should be required to prove they are loyal to America as well.   

I 100% agree that America should be 90% white and third world immigration halted.  I'm just not into the eugenics thing.

Offline SavetheWest

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2009, 02:49:57 PM »
Also, there was a genetic study of Jews and Arabs in Israel.  They found they were the closest genetically than any group they studied.  The reason I believe they are so different is that the Arabs follow Islam which (as Chaim said) makes you stupid.  Judaism takes a lifetime of study while the Koran can be memorized by some demented cleric from Cairo. 

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2009, 02:54:51 PM »
I couldn't disagree more with muman613 and SavetheWest (how inaptly you are named). Jews test notably higher than every other racial, ethnic or religious group and yet they, as a group, seem utterly ashamed of their superior status. What's wrong with the truth! If you say that every organ in the body can have measured differences, from eye and skin color to height, weight and speed group differences but then claim that the brain is the only organ in humans which is equal in all individuals and groups, you are promoting lies.

Jews tend to be obsessed with what the Nazis did to us in the past and this partly explains why they are generally leftists who push the equality agenda. Equality of opportunity is not a bad idea but equality of ability is a lie. Yes, the Nazis used lies about Jewish inferiority as an excuse to push their program to exterminate us. This doesn't mean that because one group actually does possess superior cognitive skills, it should seek to punish others. It just doesn't follow.

SavetheWest, if you are really interested in saving the West, you should educate yourself about the changes which are slowly destroying the West. Yes, the West is badly in need of saving. Here is the civilization which brought mankind every form of modern transportation and communication. It has brought us modern medicine and limited constitutional forms of government. If the truth be told, every invention and scientific advance worth mentioning in the past millennium occurred in the West. And yet, we in the West are presently hellbent on self-destruction.

It is this idea, this lie, of equal ability which is destroying us from within. Jews possess a mean IQ of up to 115, the Europeans is 100. But they are systematically displacing themselves with low IQ Third-Worlders and Muslims who have neither the inclination nor the ability to assimilate. Fertility rates among whites is far below replacement levels worldwide and they are allowing a steady stream of non-white immigrants who tend to have four to eight children per family. The prognosis is not good. Demography is destiny.

No one at JTF is advocating a Nazi Holocaust but that does not mean that it isn't high time that we begin re-thinking our immigration policies in white countries. Just as we advocate that Israel should be a predominantly Jewish country, it is consistent to want white countries to remain predominantly white. In the decade I was born here in NYC, the population was 93% white. Now, according to the latest census, our population is under 35% white. The change is occurring so gradually that no one seems to notice. So, SavetheWest, in 35 years, when you may be the last white left, would you please shut the lights before you leave.

I don't know where you got the idea that I think the third world should immigrate to western countries or am on their side.  What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.  I saw a post a while ago that said that Sefardic Jews had lower IQ's than Ashkenazi Jews. It was a difference between 30 points or something.  Chaim rightly pointed out that Sefardic Jews have been hugely successful in the USA from business to science to education and that point has been used to attack Sefardic Jews by racists.  There are so many ways that these things could be used in the wrong way.  Even if there are differences between blacks and whites with IQ, it dehumanizes an entire race to say they are genetically stupid.  Should we tell Alan Keyes he is a monkey because of his genetics? How about blacks who pass the bar exam; I know it's not many but it does take high intelligence to do that. Why for instance, are Africans way more successful and have better families than American blacks? They have a British influenced education system and it's not acceptable to be a failure or drug dealer as much as it is in black American society. Nazis used to measure Jews heads and bodies to try to prove they were inferior.  What if a third world government decided to use these studies to show the physical inferiority of whites so they could justify killing them?  What if a government decides to kill anyone with black genes and you find out you have .0001 black in you and then are ordered to be killed?  It's possible that many people have ancestors that they don't know about from many differnet ethnicities but it means nothing to me. 
I also can't tell you how many people I've met with brilliant parents who are complete morons.
I'm sure there are many genetic differences that influence intelligence but I feel like we are writing the book for people before they are able to live their lives. 

You don't have to tell me the problems with black Americans and illegal Hispanics; I have the stolen goods and knives stuck in my face to prove it.
I also don't think everyone should be encouraged to mix with each other and create some huge beige race of people.  If they do despite it being discouraged; I'm not going to be angry at or hate the children of those people.  My belief on why Jews are smart is because G-d blessed them with knowledge and Jews have a history of reading, studying, education and seeking knowledge.  You look at Latin or black culture and they just don't care about these things and embrace immorality; that's why they have so many problems.

Having millions of uneducated people who have no loyalty to these Western countries and are from the cradle to grave immoral and anti-American, is suicidal.  I don't want anyone from the third world coming to America, Europe, or Australia.  America may have had a history of immigration but why Europe has an obligation to do this is beyond me.  America should let in mostly Europeans and very small numbers of educated Asians, Indians and others who are not Muslims.  They all should be required to prove they are loyal to America as well.   

I 100% agree that America should be 90% white and third world immigration halted.  I'm just not into the eugenics thing.

I think that some of the posts are going a little overboard on the research of genetics being largely responsible for intelligence as a negative connotation.

Some of you guys are acting like the gun control crowd out there, do people use guns to do evil things? Sure, the SS death squads used their Mauser K98's to exterminate Jews but does that mean we completely ignore or ban the use of firearms?

The same applies with genetics, too many people associate genetics with Nazi ideology, we're not talking Social Darwinism here after all. I never pointed out to superiority, but I think there are some differences here that the cause of evil in the world is due to culture and not genetics.

I fail to see why this is such a controversial issue, Ashkenazi Jews are known to have 112.6 IQ on average

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence

I'm not stating that Ashkenazi are superior to Sefardic Jews or vice versa, I think culture has somewhat a impact on a persons intelligence, but I think genetic factors based on the research also play a critical role.

A Jew is a Jew to me regardless of their background.

It's factual however that cultures with a low IQ are in a much worse state than the rest of the world.

Think of it like this, do genetics play a role how you look or if you are going to be fat or skinny? Yes and no....

Those who descend from a family of obese parents are likely to end up obese themselves, does that mean that they can never become skinny? No, perhaps it would be more difficult due to factors like metabolism, etc.

I'm not stating by any means that someone is going to be an idiot based on their genetics but it does play a role to some degree.

Offline Cato

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 04:18:00 PM »
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test. I have never been impressed by them, and I happen to believe that progress in life depends on a lot of other things as well - determination, hard work, initiative, the ability to deal with people, a reputation for professionalism and honesty, etc. The problem is that there is no reason to believe that all these other behavioural characteristics do not have a genetic basis as well. Those who persist in denying genetics are providing a fertile breeding ground for those who would, and do, create a levelled society into which anyone is welcome, and in which everybody can be assured of an equal start by the massive transference of funds from the more hard working segments to those who prefer to sit all day on their backsides and listen to Rap.The result is predictable disaster, which is doing nothing to advance society and which for the rest of us is a massive disincentive to work.

As a notable UK Professor once said on the arrival of the Race Relations Act, you can ban racial discrimination just like you can ban arithmetic. I believe that much the same can be said of genetics.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 04:52:22 PM »
I see the opposite of what most here are saying. I see that although there is much genetic diversity in the world there is also a lot of similarity between peoples. I have said numerous times I deal with people from all over the world. In most cases the people I deal with are good and righteous individuals who share the goals which I have, to make peace in the world and to be able to teach our children right from wrong. It is true that there are cultures which are not healthy for society. But it is a long stretch to say that just because a person is born from one particular ethnicity that he will be saved from problems. I have seen problems with just about every ethnicity also. What is required is to be true to yourself and to strive to become a better human being.

Jewish belief includes the idea that all the nations of the world will see the righteous behavior of Israel and will realize the unity of Hashem. The Jews have a mission to raise up the righteous nations of the world.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MikeyChua

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 05:48:02 PM »
Quote
What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.

"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson

There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.

Quote
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.

When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.




Moshe92

  • Guest
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 05:52:16 PM »
This is only half the story. What matters isn't just intelligence, but work ethic. Black culture values laziness and stupidity, so even the smart blacks act like gutter schvartzes. On the other hand, there are plenty of whites, Jews, and Asians of average intellect who get straight As simply because they work their rumps off.

I agree 100%. People cannot accomplish much with intelligence alone.

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 08:15:57 PM »
Quote
What I'm saying is that these studies can be used and have been used by Nazis.

"There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world." -- Thomas Jefferson

There are those who say that religion is dangerous because more people have been killed in its name than any other cause. There are those who say that scientific knowledge is dangerous because it has produced atom bombs. All knowledge is a double-edged sword which is capable of being used for good or evil but seeking knowledge and truth will always be intrinsic to human nature.

Quote
Personally I have never chosen to take an IQ test.

When I attended elementary school we had no choice in the matter. We were all required to take it. After the birth of the civil rights movement it was discovered that these tests discriminate against stupid people and they were withdrawn. Now, only the government allows itself to administer g loaded tests to prospective employees even though it has been proven that they are the best predictors for job success.





I had to take a IQ test in highschool, I scored 121.