If you could go back in time...

[Ulli]

I didn't intend even to infer that all Christians are bad or that [certainly] all Christians are anti-semetic.  I was simply trying to start a discussion around imagining how different the world would have been [if at all] if Jesus had been killed as a child.  My inference is that, perhaps, there would have been no Christianity, and that the absence of said religion might have kept more Jews alive through the ages.  But if you doubt that Christianity hasn't caused, in the past, enormous misery for Jews, then I must be in some alternate universe.

It is the nature of the world to hate the Jews. Nearly everybody I talk with says things like: Oh the poor "Palestianians" look what Israel is doing. Althrough I highly doubt, that they are unaware about the nature of the Muslim Arab. Because if you would ask the same people if they want to have a "palestinian" neighbor, they would answer: Of cause not! They will make life miserable. Only a short example ...

It was before Jesus was born this way and it will remain. Do you really think the followers of the Germanic, Roman, Babylonian, Egyptian and Assyrian cults would have loved the Jews and would have left them alone?

You are really in some alternate universe.

[SavetheWest]

I didn't intend even to infer that all Christians are bad or that [certainly] all Christians are anti-semetic.  I was simply trying to start a discussion around imagining how different the world would have been [if at all] if Jesus had been killed as a child.  My inference is that, perhaps, there would have been no Christianity, and that the absence of said religion might have kept more Jews alive through the ages.  But if you doubt that Christianity hasn't caused, in the past, enormous misery for Jews, then I must be in some alternate universe.

It is the nature of the world to hate the Jews. Nearly everybody I talk with says things like: Oh the poor "Palestianians" look what Israel is doing. Althrough I highly doubt, that they are unaware about the nature of the Muslim Arab. Because if you would ask the same people if they want to have a "palestinian" neighbor, they would answer: Of cause not! They will make life miserable. Only a short example ...

It was before Jesus was born this way and it will remain. Do you really think the followers of the Germanic, Roman, Babylonian, Egyptian and Assyrian cults would have loved the Jews and would have left them alone?

You are really in some alternate universe.

Completely agree.  Jesus never told anyone to kill or hurt any Jew.  I don't think the people in the Church who took bribes and had sex parties were great examples of Jesuses words as were the people who blamed the Jews for killing Jesus. Jews had plenty of persecuters throughout history way before Jesus' birth and there were many in history who were Christians and their faith was the main reason they fought anti-semitism. There's no denying history but the people who committed pogroms and anti Jewish massacres were people who had economic or political problems and found a scapegoat in the Jews justified through Christian philosophy that had no basis in Jesuses words. 

[Zelhar]

First I have to state my own hypothetical solution to the grandmother paradox- If someone travels to the past and kills his grandmother before she gives birth to his mother, that person creates a shift reality in which he still exists, although his mother doesn't exists in the new reality. Although the person himself remembers that he actually came from a different reality which he altered. Other people may or may not be aware of this, depending on whether or not it is possible to observe a time traveling and reality shifting event. Now the reality that the grandmother slaying time-traveler left, still remains. But in that reality the time traveler simply disappeared at the moment of his departure to the past and reality goes on without him.

To travel back to his original reality the traveler must travel through parallel/alternate realities. Traveling to an alternate universe is not a paradoxical event. If the traveler manages to find his original reality, than basically he changed nothing (of past events) in that reality.

So, according to my view, one can only change his own reality but he can't really change or save people from their original doom. And so, the most logical thing to do is to travel to the future (if possible) gather all the necessary knowledge and technology for immortality, then travel back a million years or more to the past and start over with a small quality group pf people.

[Dr. Yisrael]

I WOULD KILL HITLER!

And mohammid.

And I would also set up a jewish state, I dunno how, But who cares I can travel in time :-)


(The reason why I would set up a jewish state is because without the holocaust, there would be no israel, in case it didn't occur to anyone straight away.)

You're only allowed one, how about this, I'll get Mo, you get Hitler! Deal? 

My Good friend, I accept your deal. It shall be race around the world.... Hitler I'm coming for you 

[cjd]

I WOULD KILL HITLER!

And mohammid.

And I would also set up a jewish state, I dunno how, But who cares I can travel in time :-)


(The reason why I would set up a jewish state is because without the holocaust, there would be no israel, in case it didn't occur to anyone straight away.)

You're only allowed one, how about this, I'll get Mo, you get Hitler! Deal? 

My Good friend, I accept your deal. It shall be race around the world.... Hitler I'm coming for you 

No need to race around the world....... The spirit of Hitler is alive and well in Washington....... Its residing in the White House.

[Ithaca-37]

"My first thought was, of course, Hitler.  But then, after I read everyone else's answer, I had another idea.  And that idea was to get at the root, and not the limb.  So I'm going to propose another person.  If you could kill the following person, do you think that, perhaps, we might eradicate (by removing this person from history) a root cause of antisemitism?  I would have killed Jesus.  No Jesus = no Christianity.  Does this have any merit?"

First re: Hitler, and as somebody else noted, Hitler was enamored with Viking mythology, and at most he was a Christian in name only and for the sake of politics.  Frankly, it's insane to believe that a pagan Europe would have been at all sympathetic to Jews.

As for today, Islam is on the march throughout all the world.  Iran is led by a madman whose speeches could have been written by Hitler, and they're months away from a nuclear device.  A Palestinian state is the current fad among liberals on college campuses.  The current occupant of the White House is at least a Muslim sympathizer if not a closet Muslim.

To be fair, some of the greatest apologists for militant Islam are left-wing Jews, whether in Israel, America, or Europe.  In contrast, a fair-minded person would realize that some of the most fervent supporters of Israel today are traditional Christians.  Chaim Ben Pesach himself  acknowledges that the majority of JTF supporters are evangelical Christians.

And despite all this, a longtime poster on this board suggests that all would be well if King Herrod had succeeded 2000 years ago.

This is the first time that I've been embarrassed to be a regular on this board.

37

[muman613]

This whole topic is ridiculous if you ask me. I do not think we can change events in time.

Regarding going back and killing Jebus I would suggest that it would not accomplish very much. Coming from the Jewish perspective it doesn't matter what the other religions are doing or saying, it matters what the Jews do or say.

Jewish perspective is that every tragedy which has befallen us has somehow been deserved. From the bondage in Egypt, to the first Temple destruction and Babylonian exile, to the second destruction and exile, through to the present. In every case the sages look for failings in our people. I will not blame the other religions as they only act as a pawn in the hand of the L-rd. I have heard it said that the nations of the world are the rod and staff of Hashem, the rod to discipline us, and the staff to support us.

It will not accomplish much to discuss hypothetical situations. I think Pharoah, Ceasar, and Hitler were all instruments of Hashem to teach us that we are Jews, and must act like Jews. This is the mission of the Jewish people. We should work on bringing all Jews together and not continue to divide amongst ourselves.

The sages suggest the reason the second Temple was destroyed was because of baseless hatred. Every Jew hated his neighbor but for dumb reasons. When this occurs to Bnai Yisroel it spells our undoing. We also must try to elevate the nations around us {when possible} so that they can see the light of Torah which Hashem has given the Jewish people.

[Daleksfearme]

I don't think that we, as humans, have the ability to see the results of altering the timeline. So even though it might be tempting to alter a terrible event, the end result of that temporal violation could be worse than the event itself.

There is also the muliverse concept to consider. If you were to intervene in an event that is considered to be "fixed" or anchored in your time line, you might cause the formation of one or more new sequence of events to be set in motion without affecting your origanal timeline.

[muman613]

I don't think that we, as humans, have the ability to see the results of altering the timeline. So even though it might be tempting to alter a terrible event, the end result of that temporal violation could be worse than the event itself.

There is also the muliverse concept to consider. If you were to intervene in an event that is considered to be "fixed" or anchored in your time line, you might cause the formation of one or more new sequence of events to be set in motion without affecting your origanal timeline.

Do you think there is a 'timeline' where Jews are not chosen by Hashem to receive Torah?

[syyuge]

I don't think that we, as humans, have the ability to see the results of altering the timeline. So even though it might be tempting to alter a terrible event, the end result of that temporal violation could be worse than the event itself.

There is also the muliverse concept to consider. If you were to intervene in an event that is considered to be "fixed" or anchored in your time line, you might cause the formation of one or more new sequence of events to be set in motion without affecting your origanal timeline.

Do you think there is a 'timeline' where Jews are not chosen by Hashem to receive Torah?

Obviously Hashem never allowed that copy of universe or that timeline to exist.

[t_h_j]

I don't think that we, as humans, have the ability to see the results of altering the timeline. So even though it might be tempting to alter a terrible event, the end result of that temporal violation could be worse than the event itself.

There is also the muliverse concept to consider. If you were to intervene in an event that is considered to be "fixed" or anchored in your time line, you might cause the formation of one or more new sequence of events to be set in motion without affecting your origanal timeline.

Do you think there is a 'timeline' where Jews are not chosen by Hashem to receive Torah?

Obviously Hashem never allowed that copy of universe or that timeline to exist.

even if it did exist, how would we ever know?

[Daleksfearme]

I don't think that we, as humans, have the ability to see the results of altering the timeline. So even though it might be tempting to alter a terrible event, the end result of that temporal violation could be worse than the event itself.

There is also the muliverse concept to consider. If you were to intervene in an event that is considered to be "fixed" or anchored in your time line, you might cause the formation of one or more new sequence of events to be set in motion without affecting your origanal timeline.

Do you think there is a 'timeline' where Jews are not chosen by Hashem to receive Torah?

Obviously Hashem never allowed that copy of universe or that timeline to exist.

even if it did exist, how would we ever know?

We would never know, as for us the Timeline would not change, or if there was a cascade effect and our own Timeline was altered as well we would be reset as well.

[Ulli]

I don't think that we, as humans, have the ability to see the results of altering the timeline. So even though it might be tempting to alter a terrible event, the end result of that temporal violation could be worse than the event itself.

There is also the muliverse concept to consider. If you were to intervene in an event that is considered to be "fixed" or anchored in your time line, you might cause the formation of one or more new sequence of events to be set in motion without affecting your origanal timeline.

Do you think there is a 'timeline' where Jews are not chosen by Hashem to receive Torah?

Obviously Hashem never allowed that copy of universe or that timeline to exist.

even if it did exist, how would we ever know?

I can give you one convincing argument among many:

If you look at the history of the Jews, you will see, that it is not    compatible with common sense.

First it is a miracle, that Jews exist today after nearly the whole world has tried to finish them.

Second, when has it ever happened, that people got their homeland back after ca. 2000 years.

Look at the prophecies in the bible. [I know we as Christians and Jews differ on many things] But how many got fullfilled. The bible is written by many people inspired by god. How is it possible, that it is such a congruent work?

[Rubystars]

Daleksfearme, I think there are parallel universes but I have a hard time believing that they're slightly altered copies of this one. I think that they would be significantly different each time.

[Dr. Yisrael]

"My first thought was, of course, Hitler.  But then, after I read everyone else's answer, I had another idea.  And that idea was to get at the root, and not the limb.  So I'm going to propose another person.  If you could kill the following person, do you think that, perhaps, we might eradicate (by removing this person from history) a root cause of antisemitism?  I would have killed Jesus.  No Jesus = no Christianity.  Does this have any merit?"

First re: Hitler, and as somebody else noted, Hitler was enamored with Viking mythology, and at most he was a Christian in name only and for the sake of politics.  Frankly, it's insane to believe that a pagan Europe would have been at all sympathetic to Jews.

As for today, Islam is on the march throughout all the world.  Iran is led by a madman whose speeches could have been written by Hitler, and they're months away from a nuclear device.  A Palestinian state is the current fad among liberals on college campuses.  The current occupant of the White House is at least a Muslim sympathizer if not a closet Muslim.

To be fair, some of the greatest apologists for militant Islam are left-wing Jews, whether in Israel, America, or Europe.  In contrast, a fair-minded person would realize that some of the most fervent supporters of Israel today are traditional Christians.  Chaim Ben Pesach himself  acknowledges that the majority of JTF supporters are evangelical Christians.

And despite all this, a longtime poster on this board suggests that all would be well if King Herrod had succeeded 2000 years ago.

This is the first time that I've been embarrassed to be a regular on this board.

37

Pompus and the jews killed him already... your 200 years late on that one. Also Christianerty is based on his resurrection.

[TruthSpreader]

Go back to the 7th century and kill Muhammed before he created Islam.

[Rubystars]

I might want to kill Nero. That was one mean guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero

Nero ruled from 54 to 68, focusing much of his attention on diplomacy, trade, and increasing the cultural capital of the empire. He ordered the building of theatres and promoted athletic games. His reign included a successful war and negotiated peace with the Parthian Empire (58–63), the suppression of the British revolt (60–61) and improving relations with Greece. The First Roman-Jewish War (66-70) started during his reign. In 68 a military coup drove Nero from the throne. Facing execution, he committed suicide on 9 June 68.[2]

Nero's rule is often associated with tyranny and extravagance.[3] He is known for a number of executions, including those of his mother[4] and adoptive brother, as the emperor who "fiddled while Rome burned",[5] and as an early persecutor of Christians. This view is based upon the main surviving sources for Nero's reign — Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio. Few surviving sources paint Nero in a favorable light.[6] Some sources, though, including those mentioned above, portray him as an emperor who was popular with the common Roman people, especially in the East.[7]

[ProudAndZionist]

But we can't go back to the past, and we won't be able to never!

[Daleksfearme]

Daleksfearme, I think there are parallel universes but I have a hard time believing that they're slightly altered copies of this one. I think that they would be significantly different each time.

From what I have read by Hawkings etc, each time we make a choice, multiple branches break off from our own universe comprised of all the choices that we could have made and did make in another reality. Some of these realities are very close to ours, while some are very different

[MasterWolf1]

The day before November 4, 2008 and have a different out come to what disaste we have now.

[Rubystars]

Daleksfearme, I think there are parallel universes but I have a hard time believing that they're slightly altered copies of this one. I think that they would be significantly different each time.

From what I have read by Hawkings etc, each time we make a choice, multiple branches break off from our own universe comprised of all the choices that we could have made and did make in another reality. Some of these realities are very close to ours, while some are very different

That's only if the universes are infinite though. If there are a finite number of universes then they don't have to be similar.

[Daleksfearme]

Daleksfearme, I think there are parallel universes but I have a hard time believing that they're slightly altered copies of this one. I think that they would be significantly different each time.

From what I have read by Hawkings etc, each time we make a choice, multiple branches break off from our own universe comprised of all the choices that we could have made and did make in another reality. Some of these realities are very close to ours, while some are very different

That's only if the universes are infinite though. If there are a finite number of universes then they don't have to be similar.

I was just looking this up over the weekend again, The number of branchings would be infinite, as per our currnt understanding.

[syyuge]

http://www.physorg.com/news66660003.html

It may be a swinging pendulum like repetitive universe, creating the illusions of infinite copies at each instance. 

[Adrian Wainer]

This is a purely hypothetical question but I think it's interesting to know what everyone would say.  Knowing what you know about history, if you could go back in time and rid the world of one individual, who would it be?

This is a great fun question. Say one went back to 1920 from December 2008 and assassinated Hitler and then one travels back to December 2008, it will be the 2008 all right but not the 2008 one left. Maybe because Hitler was killed in 1920, Germany became an increasingly left wing state and eventually became a Soviet Socialist Republic, that is part of the USSR in 1950 under Chancellor Heinrich Himmler, in 1967 there was a nuclear War between the USA, Britain, China and Japan on one side and the USSR, France, Belgium, Spain and Sweden on the other and everybody died, so right one has got rid of Hitler but caused the World to get blown up. In that scenario I think, if can travel back in to the past and one can actually change stuff like killing Hitler, then reality will fork and one will be stuck in the stream of reality where Hitler was assassinated in 1920 and whilst presumably the stream of reality in which Hitler committed suicide in 1945 continues, one is presumably locked out of it.

The alternative is that one travel back in to the past but one can actually change change anything, so one travel back to 1920 to kill Hitler but one's rifle jams and one does not get off a shot. And does not even change anything by visiting the past, since it had already happened that you have visited the past but you just did not know that you had. 


Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[muman613]

One must fully understand the Movie Terminator in order to figure this stuff out...

I still don't understand time in the terminator...

Yet I love 12 Monkeys and it has a bit of circular time in that since the main character was a child he had a dream of seeing himself when he was grown up. Somehow he witnessed his assasination when he was a child... I love 12 monkeys...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_monkeys

12 Monkeys is a 1995 science fiction film directed by Terry Gilliam and inspired by the French short film La Jetée (1962). 12 Monkeys stars Bruce Willis, Madeleine Stowe, Brad Pitt and Christopher Plummer. The film depicts a future world in 2035 devastated by disease, forcing the human population to live underground. Convict James Cole (Willis) volunteers for time travel duty to gather information in exchange for prison release. When he is mistakenly sent to 1990 rather than 1996, Cole is arrested and locked up in a psychiatric hospital, where he meets Dr. Kathryn Railly (Stowe), a psychiatrist, and Jeffrey Goines (Pitt), the insane son of a famous scientist and virus expert.

...
12 Monkeys is a study of Judeo-Christian allegories, Christ figures, humanity's use of memory and time, and Hitchcockian archetypes. The film was released to critical praise and grossed approximately $168 million in worldwide box office totals. Brad Pitt was nominated the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor, and won a Golden Globe for his performance. 12 Monkeys also won and was nominated for various categories at the Saturn Awards.