Jewish hero convicted of murder

[kahaneloyalist]

Asher Weisgal a Jewish patriot who killed four Arab-Nazis in a brave if futile effort to stop the Gush Katif pogrom has been convicted of murder let us daven for him in his and his families hour of need.http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913603257&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[NeverMore]

Asher Weisgal a Jewish patriot who killed four Arab-Nazis in a brave if futile effort to stop the Gush Katif pogrom has been convicted of murder let us daven for him in his and his families hour of need.http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913603257&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

you say he was right? or you say its ok to kill arabs just like that?
its not Jewish to murder people like that, even if they belong to the enemy, if they didnt want to hurt anyone.

[davkakach]

Asher Weisgal a Jewish patriot who killed four Arab-Nazis in a brave if futile effort to stop the Gush Katif pogrom has been convicted of murder let us daven for him in his and his families hour of need.http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913603257&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

you say he was right? or you say its ok to kill arabs just like that?
its not Jewish to murder people like that, even if they belong to the enemy, if they didnt want to hurt anyone.

NeverMore,

Your pacifist/liberal/suicidal/foolish statement above contradicts your signature,
which reads, "Kahane was right."

Make up your mind.

Yishmael was created to be evil ("And he will be a wild man, his hand against
everybody, and everyone's hand against him"), and we are commanded by
God to destroy evil, and not have any misplaced pity, ESPECIALLY for evil
people who inhabit GOD's land, which He has given to the Jews.

And remember, "He who has mercy on the cruel, will some day cause cruelty
onto the merciful."

Regardless, these lone acts of heroism and desperation are primarily the result
of the Israeli Bolshevik regime policy not to protect settlers, and to deprive
them of the means of self-protection, thereby encouraging them to voluntarily
leave Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem (the "West Bank" as self-hating Jews
and the Jew-hating MSM call these holy areas in their attempt to de-Judaize
them).

[NeverMore]

Asher Weisgal a Jewish patriot who killed four Arab-Nazis in a brave if futile effort to stop the Gush Katif pogrom has been convicted of murder let us daven for him in his and his families hour of need.http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913603257&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

you say he was right? or you say its ok to kill arabs just like that?
its not Jewish to murder people like that, even if they belong to the enemy, if they didnt want to hurt anyone.

NeverMore,

Your pacifist/liberal/suicidal/foolish statement above contradicts your signature,
which reads, "Kahane was right."

Make up your mind.

Yishmael was created to be evil ("And he will be a wild man, his hand against
everybody, and everyone's hand against him"), and we are commanded by
God to destroy evil, and not have any misplaced pity, ESPECIALLY for evil
people who inhabit GOD's land, which He has given to the Jews.

And remember, "He who has mercy on the cruel, will some day cause cruelty
onto the merciful."

Regardless, these lone acts of heroism and desperation are primarily the result
of the Israeli Bolshevik regime policy not to protect settlers, and to deprive
them of the means of self-protection, thereby encouraging them to voluntarily
leave Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem (the "West Bank" as self-hating Jews
and the Jew-hating MSM call these holy areas in their attempt to de-Judaize
them).

as to the first part of your statement, i see no contradiction with what i have said. only i dont like you calling me a one who has pacifist, liberal, suicidal, FOOLISH ideas. you must show at least some respect. you can think that all you say is OK and right and correct, (and that will make you an ignorant actually), but treating people who you disagree with in such disgrace and lower my level so much i think you made a mistake in that.

Kahane was absolutely right, i know VERY MUCH of his theories, and he, and all of us as Jews who believe in G-d, would never seek to kill innocent people only because they belong to a people who is our enemy.

you see, if they wanted to kill Jews, then it might be ok, just to save the people they want to kill. but they didint, and the guy who murdered them did it only to use it as a deflector to the hinatkut plan, thus treating them not as people but only as "things".

whatever you may say, you will never be able to convince anyone that it's Jewish to kill inocent people, especially for the reason he killed them.
all you say i agree, but only when regarding dealing with the enemy himself, or killing cevilians say while bombing a katiusha that is firing among a crowd of people or something.

no righteous Jew can seek the death of other righteous people, that if he is really righteous and not pretending to be one.

G-d himself said to let good "nochrim" or "gerim" to live peacefully in Eretz Israel. if the arabs he killed were peaceful people (and dont say that if they're muslims they cant be peaceful or something like that, because not all muslims follow what's written in the kuran, you know), than he himself pretended to be a good Jew, when actually going against G-d. in no case would G-d want innocent people to die like these arabs died, if they were innocent of course. im sure he didnt check their opinions before killing them, because he had a goal to a chieve by that.

this is definately not heroism, just like the arabs who kill us daily are'nt heroes.

you said: And remember, "He who has mercy on the cruel, will some day cause cruelty
onto the merciful."- fully agreed, doesnt conradict anything i say.

the problem is that you (and from other topic- fjack) dont understand what im trying to say, and dismiss any non- cruelty to arabs as "liberalism", "pacifism" and the other crap you called ME.

if you suggest to kill them all, without any distingtion, you cant claim to be a righteous true Jew.
I, dont keep many mitsvas, but im trying to go in G-d's ways (and "kill'em all" to the arabs is absolutely against G-d), so you see the difference between us?

im here, because i fully agree with REAL Kahanism, and not the brutal cruel WRONG Kahanism you believe in, if you support killing every arab.
there are many righteous arabs who dont deserve to die, maybe one of them was among those who the guy killed. you think thats justified? no way!

[Shlomo]

Ya, we aren't here to kill all the arabs because they are arabs. We just want to expell them all from Israel... give them some money and send them "home".

Now if they accidentally die in a plane crash on the way home, I don't think anyone is going to have depression over it.

[kahaneloyalist]

Everyone, let us remember we are all on the same side and not allow our disagreements to become personal

[NeverMore]

Everyone, let us remember we are all on the same side and not allow our disagreements to become personal

you got that right, but no 2 Jews hold the same idea right? heh.
just that disagreements must remain in the philosophy level, not sliding to personal levels.
you are correct.

[davkakach]

Kahane was absolutely right, i know VERY MUCH of his theories, and he, and all of us as Jews who believe in G-d, would never seek to kill innocent people only because they belong to a people who is our enemy.

you see, if they wanted to kill Jews, then it might be ok, just to save the people they want to kill. but they didint, and the guy who murdered them did it only to use it as a deflector to the hinatkut plan, thus treating them not as people but only as "things".

whatever you may say, you will never be able to convince anyone that it's Jewish to kill inocent people, especially for the reason he killed them.
all you say i agree, but only when regarding dealing with the enemy himself, or killing cevilians say while bombing a katiusha that is firing among a crowd of people or something.

no righteous Jew can seek the death of other righteous people, that if he is really righteous and not pretending to be one.

G-d himself said to let good "nochrim" or "gerim" to live peacefully in Eretz Israel. if the arabs he killed were peaceful people (and dont say that if they're muslims they cant be peaceful or something like that, because not all muslims follow what's written in the kuran, you know), than he himself pretended to be a good Jew, when actually going against G-d. in no case would G-d want innocent people to die like these arabs died, if they were innocent of course. im sure he didnt check their opinions before killing them, because he had a goal to a chieve by that.
...
im here, because i fully agree with REAL Kahanism, and not the brutal cruel WRONG Kahanism you believe in, if you support killing every arab.
there are many righteous arabs who dont deserve to die, maybe one of them was among those who the guy killed. you think thats justified? no way!

NeverMore,

You are arguing with me from the limited pool of knowledge you have in Torah and history.
I have nothing personal against you, believe me, but I have very much against your
gentilized, hellenized morality and ethics, which you claim is Jewish.  In fact, I used to think
like you, not so long ago.  You see, your arguing with me is like a child who argues with
a math professor who tells him that it is impossible to trisect an angle through a
construction that uses a compass and ruler only, and the child stubbornly maintains that
it is possible, and tries to show the professor how it's done.

Judaism is not Thomas Jefferson.  Indeed, there are times when a Jew has not only the
right but the obligation to go and kill!  But one has to know why, and one has to
know when, and not make blanket statements, "brutal cruel WRONG Kahanism."

There is no such thing as "Kahanism."  Rabbi Kahane advanced the Jewish Idea, which
is being faithful to the Torah.  Kahanism is just a synonym for Judaism.  Rabbi Kahane
was opposed not only by confused, hellenized secular Jews, but also by so-called rabbis,
who had tremendous difficulty accepting some teachings of the Torah, which they
could not reconcile with liberal, Western values that they were exposed to.  In a
sense, the most simple-minded, zealous Kahanist is a better Jew than a learned
"rabbi" who opposes "Kahanism."

I recommend that you listen to the following Torah Shiur given by Kahane to students
in Yeshiva University:

http://kahane.hostultra.com/RavKahane14m.mp3

You can find other audio material at

http://kahane.hostultra.com/

but I consider the Torah shiur to be the most important.  I have listened to it
dozens of times, and continue listening to it, over and over again.
Listen to it, as many times as possible, internalize the message, and I guarantee
you will come around to see things my way, the Kahane way, but most importantly,
the Jewish way, in no time.

All the Muslims in the world are not worth the life of one Jew.

By Halacha, when Israel rules over the land, any belligerent non-Jew must
be expelled or killed.  Since Rabbi Kahane was moderate and enlightened, he favored
the expulsion option. I am not so moderate.  But both my view and Rabbi Kahane's
view comform to Halacha.

Regardless, I repeat what I said in a previous post, the action of the Jewish patriot
who killed the four Arab Nazi scum is mostly thje result of frustration due to the
impossible limitations imposed upon settlers by the secular Bolshevik ruling clique,
who have no compassion for Jews, and no reverence for Judaism.

If you can read Hebrew, then you may want to read the following source to
understand what I am talking about (it is about the events leading to Baruch
Goldstein's massacre of Arab Nazi scum in Me'arat HaMachpela more than a
decade ago):

http://www.kahane.org.il/bg/podef1.html

Remember, when in doubt, ALWAYS side with the Jew, not with the Arab.

[NeverMore]

i cant see where do you disagree with me. of course, accept for the insults you said to me about me being helenized and crap like that. dont boast so much on knowing the torah. you must be first righteous to claim you are Jewish, and not to be so snobish about you knowing the TORAH better than me. you surely dont know JUDAISM better than me, thats for sure. if you say that you want to kill ALL arabs, ALL muslims, you are no better than the MUSLIMS themselves. its definately not JEWISH to wans such things. unless you dont want to kill all arabs, but only those who want to kill you and destroy Israel. in such case, we won't have any special disagreements.
remember, we hate the kuran for preaching to kill and destroy, and here i see you suggesting the same for the arabs, who are not ALL bad. so you cant wish death to ALL and still claim its JUDAISM's way.
no matter how much Torah you know, Talmud and so on, you can never claim to be a REAL Jew, just like G-d wanted you to be, if you wish innocent people to DIE. i say innocent, because at least 0.000001% of them are so, at least one arab is innocent, enough not to want to kill them ALL.
you can wish to FIGHT them all, because as a PEOPLE they seek for your destruction, but when fighting them, you must try not to kill anypne innocent. thats G-d's way, you know why? because G-d, the way Jews see him, is MORAL. you must, as i said before, bomb for example a katiusha which is firing among crowds of people, but you MUST NOT bomb a marketplace for example, unless there is threat from is (terrorists, stuff like that).
i cant see how bombing innocent people isnt cruelty? can you explain me that? i mean if they dont stand in the way or dont pose any threat. like, you see an arab walking in the street and come to stab him- i mean these things. you call thi JEWISH??
cant be so. never.

 you must feel Judaism in the heart, and not just boast that you are so smart about Torah and Talmud.

[NeverMore]

hey, davkakach, you added this:

By Halacha, when Israel rules over the land, any belligerent non-Jew must
be expelled or killed.  Since Rabbi Kahane was moderate and enlightened, he favored
the expulsion option. I am not so moderate.  But both my view and Rabbi Kahane's
view comform to Halacha.

Regardless, I repeat what I said in a previous post, the action of the Jewish patriot
who killed the four Arab Nazi scum is mostly thje result of frustration due to the
impossible limitations imposed upon settlers by the secular Bolshevik ruling clique,
who have no compassion for Jews, and no reverence for Judaism.

If you can read Hebrew, then you may want to read the following source to
understand what I am talking about (it is about the events leading to Baruch
Goldstein's massacre of Arab Nazi scum in Me'arat HaMachpela more than a
decade ago):

http://www.kahane.org.il/bg/podef1.html

Remember, when in doubt, ALWAYS side with the Jew, not with the Arab.

while i was answering you, so her'es my addition:
and i agree with everything you've added, no problem with that. altough i would absolutely prefer rabbi Kahane's way of expelling, instead of murdering them all.

i agree what this jew did was an act of desperation, but surely not heroism.

[davkakach]

i cant see where do you disagree with me. of course, accept for the insults you said to me about me being helenized and crap like that. dont boast so much on knowing the torah. you must be first righteous to claim you are Jewish, and not to be so snobish about you knowing the TORAH better than me. you surely dont know JUDAISM better than me, thats for sure. if you say that you want to kill ALL arabs, ALL muslims, you are no better than the MUSLIMS themselves. its definately not JEWISH to wans such things. unless you dont want to kill all arabs, but only those who want to kill you and destroy Israel. in such case, we won't have any special disagreements.
remember, we hate the kuran for preaching to kill and destroy, and here i see you suggesting the same for the arabs, who are not ALL bad. so you cant wish death to ALL and still claim its JUDAISM's way.
no matter how much Torah you know, Talmud and so on, you can never claim to be a REAL Jew, just like G-d wanted you to be, if you wish innocent people to DIE. i say innocent, because at least 0.000001% of them are so, at least one arab is innocent, enough not to want to kill them ALL.
you can wish to FIGHT them all, because as a PEOPLE they seek for your destruction, but when fighting them, you must try not to kill anypne innocent. thats G-d's way, you know why? because G-d, the way Jews see him, is MORAL. you must, as i said before, bomb for example a katiusha which is firing among crowds of people, but you MUST NOT bomb a marketplace for example, unless there is threat from is (terrorists, stuff like that).
i cant see how bombing innocent people isnt cruelty? can you explain me that? i mean if they dont stand in the way or dont pose any threat. like, you see an arab walking in the street and come to stab him- i mean these things. you call thi JEWISH??
cant be so. never.

 you must feel Judaism in the heart, and not just boast that you are so smart about Torah and Talmud.

I will be the first person to tell you that I am not a very good Jew.  And all the
negative adjectives I employed were meant to describe your currently-held views,
NOT you as a person.  Again, this perverted logic you employ, "If we want to kill
them all, we are no better than they" betrays the extent to which Western,
hellenized, liberal ideas are entrenched in your mind.

Most rabbis nowadays (even the crappy ones) agree that Yishamel (the Arabs)
are Amalek, from a Halachic point of view, because they want to annihilate
us.  The divine decree for Amalek is complete destruction.  We are commanded
by God to wipe out Amalek completely, which means killing men, women
and children (now you're really starting to sweat, eh?).  Not living a single living
Amalekite.

Nevertheless, this decree is not against a race, but against an ideology.
There are a few Arabs who are Christians or atheists, who are not only peaceful
towards Israel, but are actually Zionists who defend Israel, and who devote their
entire lives to defending Israel.  Two prominent Zionist Arabs that come to mind
are Walid Shoebat (ex-terrorist) and Brigitte Gabriel (look them up on Google).

Surely, a Kahanist regime would never harm such righteous gentiles.  But when
it comes to Islam, the decree remains in full strength---Amalek must be
destroyed, otherwise, it will cause us great damage.

Eventually, Amalek (Islam) will be destroyed.  Yes, almost a billion Muslims
will perish.

It is very difficult for a secular Jew who is exposed for the first time to real Torah
concepts to accept some of them, and I sympathize with you, because I've been
through this before.  The essence of Judaism is "Kabalat Ol Malchut Shama'im",
the acceptance of the yoke of heaven.  What can I say, it is a difficult.

[davkakach]

you must feel Judaism in the heart, and not just boast that you are so smart about Torah and Talmud.

I want to comment on this line separately, because I feel it deserves special treatment.
What is most important for a Jew is to understand the Jewish Idea, which forms the
foundation for everything else.

First of all, I have nothing to boast about.  I am not smart at all about Torah, and most
certainly the Talmud.  I am but a mere novice, taking his first baby steps, barely dipping
my toe hesitatingly into the vast sea of Torah and Talmud knowledge.  I have a long
way to go.  However, everything is relative, and relative to you, I am a bit more
advanced, so I thought I would offer you some insights (and with sincere humility, I
hope you will consider some of those insights).

The Neturei Karta, ymach shemam, are supposedly very "smart about Torah and Talmud."
After all, they spend hours every studying Torah, Mishna, Gemara, Talmud, Tosefta,
Mishnaiot, Rishonim, Achronim, Musar, Emuna.  But do you consider them good Jews?

The "rabbis" of the treasonous Yesha council who urged the Gush Katif protestors to
exercise restraint instead of showing violent opposition to the expulsion, surely were
knowledgable in the Torah and Talmud, yet would you say that their advice was
correct?

The hundreds of thousands of "Ultra-Orthodox" in Israel who refuse to acknowledge that
the foundation of the State of Israel, who refuse to serve in the IDF, who do not show
any gratitude for the money that the State (which they refuse to acknowledge) gives
them for Torah study---do you think they are good Jews?

Examples of rabbis, Gedolim in Torah, who committed terrible mistakes and betrayed weak
faith in God, are unfortunately numerous throughout Jewish history, and many such cases
are cited in the Mishna.  you will learn more about it when you listen to the Torah shiur I
mentioned in a previous post.

Various Sifrei Musar (Jewish ethics books), recommended for people who are in the
process of Chazara BeTshuva (such as myself), detail a hierarchy of levels of a person's
faith.  The highest level is that of a Jew who performs a mitzva not because he thinks
it makes sense or is just, but because he is commanded to perform the Mitzva.  So,
for example, you are supposed to avoid murdering a fellow Jew not because you think
it makes sense, but because God forbade you to do so.  Because today you
think it makes sense, and tomorrow it will seem justified to kill a Jew who, for example,
killed (God forbid) raped your daughter.  Does he deserve to be killed?  Sure, I think
so.  But it is not up to you.  It is up to the Sanhedrim (may it be re-established in our
time) to decide.

Anyway, you and I have a long way to go.

[NeverMore]

i read your post, and still cant see where do you disagree with me. we think just the same. its only very non nice of you,to say this:

Western,
hellenized, liberal ideas are entrenched in your mind.

i greee about amalek- every arab, every muslim who seeks the destruction of Israel, or ANYONE in the world that seeks to destroy Jews will be called amalek and Jews must fight them, even simply to SRUVIVE.

amalek is definately not (at least not today) a PEOPLE, its a way of life, of thinking. therefore not all arabs or muslims are amalek. there are muslims who dont care about the kuran and care only about logics.

the problem is, and i think here is what you dont understand in my views, is that i dont say "oh, dont fight, you might kill a righteous man", but i say "kill and fight and do ALL to protect the Jewish people, ALL that you only can. but, dont ask to kill when its not needed to protect our people." i would agree to bomb any hostile thing to us (katiusha, terrorists, qasams and so on) even if there are cevilians around. its very basic, because if not, OUR people would get killed from these "things" i mentioned.

you said one sentence which actually tells that you agree with me completely:

Nevertheless, this decree is not against a race, but against an ideology.

thus, we define amalek as an ideology and fight them. thats the idea.

and by the way, im not as secular as you think. i even would call myself not secular at all, a  REAL Jew. if you wanna know why i can tell you if you ask, its just that its another subject (so that you wont think i only love myself so much that i claim such things based on nothing- or something like that).

and dude, if you want me to respect you stop saying this "helenization" and "liberal" crap about me, because you obviously dont know me well enough.

if you can only say what is the thing you disagree with me over it, i would answer specificly. however, it seems like we agree about all except that you want to KILL them all, while i want to FIGHT them all (them- the arabs, muslims who as a PEOPLE seek to destroy us). isnt it right?

[NeverMore]

Various Sifrei Musar (Jewish ethics books), recommended for people who are in the
process of Chazara BeTshuva (such as myself), detail a hierarchy of levels of a person's
faith.  The highest level is that of a Jew who performs a mitzva not because he thinks
it makes sense or is just, but because he is commanded to perform the Mitzva.  So,
for example, you are supposed to avoid murdering a fellow Jew not because you think
it makes sense, but because God forbade you to do so.  Because today you
think it makes sense, and tomorrow it will seem justified to kill a Jew who, for example,
killed (God forbid) raped your daughter.  Does he deserve to be killed?  Sure, I think
so.  But it is not up to you.  It is up to the Sanhedrim (may it be re-established in our
time) to decide.

you know what i dont like about "Judaism" (quote mark- because its not real judaism what im gonna describe here)?
so many Jews, and i see you are among them, practice mitsvas just because its written, or interpreted from the Torah by a rabbi or something like that. you brought an example of murder- there are numerouse mitsvot you can come to alone, all by yourself. as i sayed in other posts, being Jewish is first about being righteous. you mustnt hurt anyone (including animals) who dont want to hurt you. thats the basic, anyway. you can study blindly all the mitsvas and still not be a REAL Jew, only an impostor, because it will not come from within you using this idea i mentioned about not hurting and stuff. first- mitsvas between people, then between man and G-d.
so, you can be hozer be teshuva, an idea i consider myself (of course, not in your fashion (which doesnt emphasize morality, but goes "by the book, do whats written and thats all" something of this kind). a REAL teshuva, no matter if you are muslim, arab christian or a buddhist, the first step of REAL and GENUINE teshuva will begin with the righteousness idea i mentioned above. everything else will stand on this basis.

so if you say that you would KILL someone who raped your daughter, you are letitimately want to punish him for that.
however, G-d's way are'nt these. this man must be punished, to start regretting, and begin a real teshuva of his own, based on understanding whats wrong. you dont KILL everyone who slips and falls to the hands of the sin. i dont know how in the world can you believe Judaism is such a violent, brutal and cruel religion, that it can preach to kill kill kill and so on. in the same way, if a righteous man, who is accidently also an arab, walks in the street, you dont come to kill him.

Judaism is a religion of peace, you DEFEND the Jewish people, not simply attack the non Jews (like muslims) because you think this has been commanded by G-d, which it hasnt been for the sake of truth.

[davkakach]

there are muslims who dont care about the kuran and care only about logics

After reading the Qur'an, the Hadith, Craig Winn's Prophet of Doom, Robert Spencer's
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, and Andrew Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad,
I am inclined to disagree with this view.

There are no peaceful Muslims.  There might be peaceful people who think they are
Muslim, but they are not true Muslims, they do not live by the Qur'an, who commands all
Muslims to kill and subjugate the unbelievers.  In fact, the Qur'an addresses in particular
peaceful "Muslims" who are unwilling to participate in jihad warfare, and calls such peaceful
people hypocrites for whom the hottest places in hell are reserved.

You can be peaceful.  You can be Muslim.  But you can't be both.  Don't blame me, it's all
in the unholy Qur'an.

and by the way, im not as secular as you think

It doesn't matter whether you're secular or not.  What matters is whether you understand
the authentic Jewish Idea (as explained in Rabbi Kahane's writings).  There are many
"rabbis" (like the Yesha traitors) who perform Mitzvot but who do not understand at all
the Jewish Idea.

and dude, if you want me to respect you stop saying this "helenization" and "liberal" crap about me, because you obviously dont know me well enough.

I just feel that you have misplaced pity towards enemies and potential enemies, and it
bothers me.

however, it seems like we agree about all except that you want to KILL them all, while i want to FIGHT them all (them- the arabs, muslims who as a PEOPLE seek to destroy us). isnt it right?

That's all Israel has been doing for the last few decades!  It has been fighting the
Arab Nazi scum, with no results.  I don't want to fight for the sake of fighting.  I want
to fight in order to kill, eliminate, liquidate the Muslim vermin, once and for all!
I don't want to be a victim in a relentless war of attrition.  I don't want to fight forever.
I want peace.  Peace through elimination of the evil Nazi cockroaches, for whom you
should have no pity!

Okay, and now let's shake hands.   

[davkakach]

being Jewish is first about being righteous. you mustnt hurt anyone (including animals) who dont want to hurt you

NO.  Being Jewish is about being holy!  "Kdoshim tihiyu li."  (You shall be holy).
"Mamlechet Kohanim ve Goy Kadosh" (A kingdom of priests and a holy nation).

A Jew accomplishes this by submitting himself to God, cancelling his ego, performing Mitzva
in the spirit of the Jewish Idea.  I'm through arguing with you.  Please refer to all the sources
I mentioned earlier, as well as book written by Rabbi Kahane HY"D available online.  If you
don't come around to accepting the Jewish Idea...  well, I tried my best.

Peace.

[NeverMore]

after these thing you've said, you only proved how same our ideas are.
first- i ment to have mercy on these "muslims", who are only muslims formally, not practically. i absolutely agree that you must eliminate the threat of these mulims who do Jihad, like it says in the kuran. no disagreement here, you absolutely share my views here.

secund- being holy, goes hand by hand with being righteous. only that i say, that if you are'nt righteous, than you cant be holy, so being righteous is the basis. when you are righteous, only then the other mitsvas have meaning, because they come from your HEART.

davkakach, you said to me:

If you
don't come around to accepting the Jewish Idea...  well, I tried my best

now this is disrespect. i surely accept and LOVE the Jewish idea with all my heart. my heart fills with pleasure when thinking about true Judaism, the love of G-d, righteousness. you cant imagine how natural this feeling is, how devine.

you and i actually DO believe in the same things, as i dont find any contradiction in what you have said (after clearing the islam issue out and me explaining you what type of "islam i ment, which was formal only, means that you dont do Jihad) and what i believe.

final thing, after all that, you dont know wether these arabs the guy killed were indeed TRUE muslims, or only FORMAL ones. therefore, you cant call him a hero, because of the chance that he has killed a righteous man. i mean, maybe one of them was only "muslim" from birth, but didnt believe in the whole violence preached in the kuran and the other cruel things, but neither did he convert to Judaism for example, which really is peacefull towards anyone who doesnt threaten it.

that is the ONLY point whaere i disagree with you, about him being a hero or not. he would have been a hero by me also, if i was sure that all the people he killed wanted and preached and acted to do jihad and kill Jews.

[jsullivan]

1. nevermore writes that all Muslims do not follow the murderous Koran.  If someone is a Muslim, he MUST believe in jihad, which means the murder of all non-Muslims.  If he does not, then he is not a real Muslim.  And don't tell me that there are Muslims who don't know what the Koran says.  ALL of the Arab Muslims in Israel and in the Middle East hear and see the quotes from the Koran calling for jihad on their Arabic television and radio programs, in their Arabic newspapers, and in their mosques every day.  They know what Islam stands for.  They know that Islam DEMANDS complete genocide against ALL non-Muslims.  If despite all of this, they still call themselves Muslims, then they are evil.  Of course, almost all of the Muslims enthusiastically agree with the Nazi philosophy of the Koran.  The few that do not agree, but who are willing to quietly accept what the Muslim terrorist murderers do, are also guilty.  And if they do not agree with the Koran's message, then they are not real Muslims.  There was also a small minority of Germans who privately disagreed with Hitler (the vast majority of Germans enthusiastically supported Hitler).  But this small minority who disagreed with Hitler still remained loyal to Germany during the Holocaust, and followed orders, because their loyalty to Germany was more important to them than their disagreements with Hitler.  There are a few Muslims (only a few!) who disagree with the Muslim terrorists, but even they are still loyal to their fellow Arabs and fellow Muslims, and in a war will support their brothers against the Jews.  This small minority is therefore also evil.

2. nevermore keeps taking criticism personally.  nevermore, stop worrying about being called liberal and start concentrating on the issues themselves.  davkakach's criticism of your views is legitimate and should not be taken personally.  davkakach has a right to say that he thinks your views are liberal, hellenized and so on.  I also think your views on this issue are liberal and un-Jewish.  Shouldn't we be able to speak to you honestly without you being insulted every minute?  These are not personal attacks.  They are legitimate criticisms of your opinions, just as you have criticized davkakach's opinions.  We respect you personally, but we think your views are liberal and wrong.  Shouldn't we have a right to say that?  You keep saying our views are not Jewish.  But if we say your views are not Jewish, you are insulted.  This is not personal.

3. nevermore has written many times that Jews are not allowed to do to the Arab Muslim "civilians" what the Muslim terrorists have done to the Jewish people.  nevermore has said that if we kill the Arab Muslim "civilians" the way the hero Asher Weisgal did, then we are just as bad as the Muslim terrorists.  This is the ultimate example of hellenized, leftwing "morality."  IF SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING VIOLENT AGAINST EVIL PEOPLE WHO DESERVE IT, THAT IS JUSTICE AND IT IS SOMETHING WE ARE REQUIRED TO DO.  BUT DOING THE SAME VIOLENT THING AGAINST GOOD PEOPLE IS TERRIBLE.  SO YOU CANNOT COMPARE KILLING ARAB MUSLIM NAZI "CIVILIANS" WHO ARE EVIL WITH THE MURDER OF JEWS WHO ARE INNOCENT.  THE ARAB MUSLIMS DESERVE IT AND THE JEWS DON'T.

4. Even if there are a handful of Arabs who are not evil, if they are killed by Jews who are fighting a war of survival, IT IS THE ARAB TERRORISTS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR DEATHS.  THE JEWS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO KILL THEIR ENEMIES.  IF NOT, THEN THE ENEMY WILL KILL THE JEWS.  HaShem commanded the Jews to completely destroy the residents of Cnaan (Canaan).  Yehoshua (Joshua) was commanded by HaShem in the Torah and in sefer yehoshuah to wipe out the evil nations of Cnaan completely.  In milchemet mitzvah (an obligatory war), the Rambam and the other Talmudic commentators make it clear that this is how the Jews must fight their wars in every generation.  You may agree or disagree with it, but that is REAL Judaism.  ALL Arabs and Muslims are rodfim (pursuers of Jewish blood), unless they prove otherwise.  A RODEF (PURSUER OF JEWISH BLOOD) CAN BE INNOCENT.  FOR EXAMPLE, IF A PREGNANT WOMAN HAS A BABY IN HER WOMB THAT ENDANGERS HER LIFE, WE MUST ABORT THE BABY TO SAVE THE MOTHER'S LIFE.  THE BABY IS INNOCENT, BUT THE BABY IS A RODEF BECAUSE THE BABY ENDANGERS THE MOTHER'S LIFE.  THEREFORE EVEN ARAB BABIES ARE RODFIM.  THE ARAB BABIES ARE INNOCENT, BUT WHEN THEY GROW UP, THEY ALMOST CERTAINLY WILL ENDANGER JEWISH LIVES.  These are REAL Jewish concepts.  You can agree or disagree, but this is authentic Judaism.

 

[NeverMore]

nevermore writes that all Muslims do not follow the murderous Koran

thats a lie, i've never said it and i never thought so.

[jsullivan]

(and dont say that if they're muslims they cant be peaceful or something like that, because not all muslims follow what's written in the kuran, you know)

It's not a lie, nevermore.  It's what you wrote.

[NeverMore]

jsullivan,

i must say that this is the great "misunderstanding evening" i ever had. you and davkakach seem not to understand what i say.

i totally agree with ALL you have said. i even created the terms of "practical" muslim and "formal" muslim, who actually isnt muslim.

the ONLY thing i oppose, and i think every human who defines himself as one who tries to be righteous would oppose, is killing REAL INNOCENTS. come on, i live here in Israel, you dont need to convince ME that Kahane was right, i know it myself. but i speak only about theoretical very very small question regarding about one person. i only say, that you cant be sure that among these people he has killed, there was'nt a true righteous man. i say, and i dont know, im only questioning it, that maybe one of the killed ones was against terror, against kuran agains BAD and for GOOD. you just cant know. thats all, and you and davkakach made an analogy of what i said about hese killed arabs and thought i mean it for all the arabs. I DONT!!! when will you understand what im trying to say.
in the case that one of them was completely righteous, i will never call this man a hero for killing them. if they all supported terror which by definition wants us all dead, then deal with them, ok. you get what i say? you turned me here to liberal, leftist, i will soon go vote for yossi beilin you probably think. no idea how you came to these opinions on me, accept from NOT UNDERSTANDING my intention when i question his "heroeness".

i dont take these "liberal accusations" as personal, its just VERY strange for me, being who i am ( and i see you brobably know me too little), to hear that after all, someone thinks im liberal.

what may be personal, jsullivan, is your first sentence :  

nevermore writes that all Muslims do not follow the murderous Koran

, and i dont know why would you spread lies on me if you dont have anything personal against me.

[NeverMore]

(and dont say that if they're muslims they cant be peaceful or something like that, because not all muslims follow what's written in the kuran, you know)

It's not a lie, nevermore.  It's what you wrote.

compare this to what you wrote i said:

nevermore writes that all Muslims do not follow the murderous Koran

i said not all muslims folow the kuran- these would be actually non muslims as you say, or only "formal" muslims as i said, while you quoted me "saying" that no muslim follows the kuran- clear difference, and i dont think anyone in the world would think what you quoted me "saying".

[jsullivan]

If they call themselves Muslims, that means they want to identify with Mohammed and the Koran.  It means they are willing to accept that monstrous Nazi religion.  All of the Arabs killed by the great Jewish hero Asher Weisglas called themselves Muslims. 

Do you condemn David Raziel, the first commander of the Irgun Tzvai Leumi, who blew up and killed many hundreds of Arab Muslim civilians to stop the Arab pogroms of the 1930s?  Raziel never asked the Arab civilians if they agreed with the Muslim terrorists.  He killed them because they are the enemy.

Do you condemn America and Britain for DELIBERATELY killing hundreds of thousands of German civilians in the bombing of Dresden during World War II?

Do you condemn America for dropping two atomic bombs on Japan in World War II killing many Japanese civilians?

What bothers me is that when a Jewish hero like Asher Weisglas is willing to sacrifice his life to save his fellow Jews, you do not view that as heroism.  If that's not heroism, then Etzel and Lechi were not heroes because they also killed many Arab civilians before the 1948 War of Independence by bombing Jaffa and in Dir Yassin.

You're a good Jew, nevermore.  On this issue, I think you're completely wrong but eventually you will see that we are right.  ISRAEL CANNOT WIN ANY WAR AND CANNOT SURVIVE IF WE WORRY ABOUT KILLING ARAB CIVILIANS.

I have to go now.  But don't take it personally.  We do respect you, but we disagree with you.  But I can see that you have a lot of common sense and so I think you will someday agree with us.

[NeverMore]

hmm... thanks for the "good Jew" thing 

its not that i'm disagreeing with you, i'm only raising questions. its hard for me, who obviously dont have the experience you have, to disagree with what you say.

i can only say it sits on my consciense, although i know it will help us win the war, i fully understand it. just when i hear of this sort of killing, (which i think is worse than people who die when standing near a bombed katiusha launcher) i cant avoid having these thoughts of mercy. like, someone suddenly decided to kill your cat because its the only way to get you out of the building you live in.. i dont know, something like this.

i dont think that i should battle this mercy out of me, because i really find it hard to think G-d wants all this killing, in the sort of what this guy did. again, seperate the "katiusha case" (and other similar to that) i mentioned here.

 :)thanks for providing me with additional insight, though. it will surely make me think.

[kahaneloyalist]

Everyone wants to have mercy i can tell you it causes me great pain to harm even evil people(doesnt stop me though) but what we must always remember are the words of the Ramban on misplaced kindness

"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"