Another Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

[Axel]

Hi there, I've recently came across this thing called "The Israeli Project", basically a guideline of what Zionists should say to keep a positive public opinion of us. Supposedly written by Frank Lutz, naturally anti-Israelis point this out as Israeli propoganda.

My problem with it is, I don't think it's authentic. Almost all the things written in the article are indeed true and even useful, and have been used by Israeli politicians before. The danger here is that if this comes off as a guideline of what to say.

For example, it says this...

"10) Draw direct parallels between Israel and America—including the need to defend
against terrorism. From history to culture to values, the more you focus on the
similarities between Israel and America, the more likely you are to win the support
of those who are neutral."

This is what the author is telling Zionists to do, which isn't exactly an original or bad tactic.

The danger? if an anti-zionist sees this, next time someone actually draws the parallel between Israel and America, they will go "ahh, see, they are using Zionist tactics to trick us".

I dunno, this thing seems very fishy to me, especially since it's avaliable to the public and everything. I actually found out about this from a pro-Palestinian who basically said, "hey guys, take a look at this, it will show you how Zionists shape our views... time to wake up!" or something like that.

Another incident, I was arguing with a White Nationalist about Israel, and he quoted, "Wow, you paint a very pretty picture of Israel, you're like the new Frank Lutz".

What do you guys think?

[mord]

It's real many Arab groups like CAIR and many others tell their members how to present an arguement

[Axel]

It's real many Arab groups like CAIR and many others tell their members how to present an arguement

What I'm trying to find out is if this is an authentic piece done by pro-Israelis or an ingenius piece of propoganda against Israel.

[mord]

It's real many Arab groups like CAIR and many others tell their members how to present an arguement

What I'm trying to find out is if this is an authentic piece done by pro-Israelis or an ingenius piece of propoganda against Israel.

It's real

[mord]

I don't know why they would hide it   http://blogs.forward.com/bintel-blog/109282/

[Axel]

It's real

If it's real, then what idiot sanctioned it? I'm no genius, but even I can see how many negative implications this can have on our cause.

Wtf were they thinking? if they really wanted to help fight anti-Israeli bias, they could have kept this at least out of the public forum.

The idiot Lutz might as well have named it, "Zionist lies, how the real Jewish Nazis lie to you"

[mord]

I personally don't care about either of those 2 leftists group arguing

[Lisa]

Israel has always been bad at their public relations.  This just looks to me like an attempt to improve their publicity by well meaning Jews. 

However, winning hearts and minds is not really an issue for us JTF'ers.  After all, we're opposed to foreign aid to Israel (and to the rest of the world).  This book you linked to seems to be for Jews who want Israel to continue to curry favor from America. 

[Axel]

I personally don't care about either of those 2 leftists group arguing

You have to understand that our enemies see no difference. What leftis Jews do, we take blame for.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Hi there, I've recently came across this thing called "The Israeli Project", basically a guideline of what Zionists should say to keep a positive public opinion of us. Supposedly written by Frank Lutz,

naturally anti-Israelis point this out as Israeli propoganda. 

The word "propaganda" has negative connotations because it is commonly the term used to describe the methods the German nazis used to spread Jew hatred through sensationalist media.   The term implies incitement to hatred, but on the other hand when it is describing "propaganda" used by a certain group to promote itself, the term implies untruth.  But not all "propaganda" is untrue.   Propaganda is a means to spread a message through media.   A message can be good or bad, and it can be true or false.   If the message is good and true, who cares if someone cries "propaganda" ?  Either they can prove it wrong or they can't.  And if it is true, they likely can't "prove it wrong."  So why should I care that they call it propaganda.   I will openly and honestly say that any time I type a message on the internet it is propaganda for one cause or another.   Propaganda can be a positive thing.

My problem with it is, I don't think it's authentic. Almost all the things written in the article are indeed true and even useful, and have been used by Israeli politicians before.

I haven't looked at the site, but haven't seen any reason from you as to why you think it's not authentic.  Why not?

The danger here is that if this comes off as a guideline of what to say. 

What's dangerous about that?   Many times people don't know what to say.  And worse, they don't know facts.  So if this effort causes people to know more facts and be better prepared with what to say, how is this dangerous?  This sounds very good to me.

For example, it says this...

"10) Draw direct parallels between Israel and America—including the need to defend
against terrorism. From history to culture to values, the more you focus on the
similarities between Israel and America, the more likely you are to win the support
of those who are neutral."

Sounds like a natural and good strategy to draw certain parallels with America since THEY EXIST.

The danger? if an anti-zionist sees this, next time someone actually draws the parallel between Israel and America, they will go "ahh, see, they are using Zionist tactics to trick us". 

Of course zionists use "tactics" just like any other person uses "tactics" to support his position.  The question is whether the message rings true or not.  If they can't dispute it except to say "that's a zionist trick" then we've already won.

I dunno, this thing seems very fishy to me, especially since it's avaliable to the public and everything. I actually found out about this from a pro-Palestinian who basically said, "hey guys, take a look at this, it will show you how Zionists shape our views... time to wake up!" or something like that.

Another incident, I was arguing with a White Nationalist about Israel, and he quoted, "Wow, you paint a very pretty picture of Israel, you're like the new Frank Lutz".

What do you guys think?

I think you put too much stock into what antisemites say, and I think you put too much stock into sweeping generalizations without fact behind them.  Opinions are just opinions, why put any weight at all behind them?  I can say something like "All Fakestinians are liars."  Does that make their claim for a state illegitimate to you?   Well, it shouldn't.  All I did was say something.  That's the same thing as an Arab Muslim nazi like your friend saying "the zionists trick us all"  - so should we do a poll how many people say Fakestinians are liars and how many make wild claims about zionists and then the side with more people wins?   Ridiculous.

 As to my above statement, obviously they are not all liars, even if their national myths are lies.  A person should be able to make such distinctions and to not read too much into statements.   Demand facts and evidence from people, not wild accusations.   Something that would reflect how illegitimate their claim to a state is would be a statement like, The Fakestinians claim to statehood is a lie, there was never even a Fakestinian identity until Arafat invented the term in the 1960's.   You see, that is a factual statement, with documented evidence backing it up that indeed Arafat invented the term Fakestinian nation for the Arab 5th column in the land of Israel.  This is not a mere opinion that any guy with a computer could just make up and say to anyone and that would have no value behind it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It's real

If it's real, then what idiot sanctioned it? I'm no genius, but even I can see how many negative implications this can have on our cause.

Wtf were they thinking? if they really wanted to help fight anti-Israeli bias, they could have kept this at least out of the public forum.

You really seem to not be making sense.   Why should we pretend as if we don't have to put any work into presenting our case in the media?   As if it just comes naturally we don't really think about things.   Who says we have to be such worms?   Just like our enemies work hard with all their "think tanks" and Cair organizations to put out their message
everywhere, we work hard to counter it - with the truth.

The idiot Lutz might as well have named it, "Zionist lies, how the real Jewish Nazis lie to you"

Your mistake is that since it's an "argument" they are instructing people to make, you are assuming that what they are saying is not true or is a lie.   What makes you think this?  Where do you get such ideas?   And you DON'T think that the Arabs ARE spreading lies in the media and academia?    Since they most certainly are, we have to counter their lies with a message containing the truth.  Why do you think zionism is built on lies?   You have bought into the Arab lies.

If you can't tell the difference between truth and untruth, your comments are worthless.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Israel has always been bad at their public relations.  This just looks to me like an attempt to improve their publicity by well meaning Jews. 

However, winning hearts and minds is not really an issue for us JTF'ers.  After all, we're opposed to foreign aid to Israel (and to the rest of the world).  This book you linked to seems to be for Jews who want Israel to continue to curry favor from America. 

Indeed, it is very important to point out that we differ very strongly in our opinions from these Jews who want to perpetuate the shackles of American aid to Israel.   

I didn't look at the site so I didn't realize that was their intention.   I disagree with that.  But I do believe they have some sound arguments as to why everyday Americans should sympathize with Israel and not sympathize with Arab terrorists (which you would think most people wouldn't need explained to them, but the leftist message is pervasive in society)...

[Axel]

The word "propaganda" has negative connotations because it is commonly the term used to describe the methods the German nazis used to spread Jew hatred through sensationalist media.   The term implies incitement to hatred, but on the other hand when it is describing "propaganda" used by a certain group to promote itself, the term implies untruth.  But not all "propaganda" is untrue. 

Oh I know that, but we can both agree that the person I was reffering to used "propaganda" in a negative term, and to people being influenced by this against Israel don't always know that the world doesn't always mean a bad thing.

haven't seen any reason from you as to why you think it's not authentic.  Why not?

Well as I explained, it seems to do more damage than good, but I could always be wrong, which is why I wanted to hear opinions of people like you.

What's dangerous about that?   Many times people don't know what to say.  And worse, they don't know facts.  So if this effort causes people to know more facts and be better prepared with what to say, how is this dangerous?  This sounds very good to me.

True, but at the same time any PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi could look at these guidlines and already know exactly how to dismember any pro-Israeli opponent. Also, I mean dangerous for the people who have not yet made a commitment to either side, spreading such information might turn them against us... in retrospect it's not THAT bad as opposed to what other lies muslims are spreading, but this one is the first where I assumed arabs actually pretended to be pro-Israelis. Something I've considered them too stupid to do.

Sounds like a natural and good strategy to draw certain parallels with America since THEY EXIST.

And I acknowledge that, but the average American patriot with no opinion of Israel might see it differently, they might think Zionists are using text-book tactics to brainwash them.

Of course zionists use "tactics" just like any other person uses "tactics" to support his position.

For me the idea has always been to hide the tactics, once people expose them, they will hold that to you.

The question is whether the message rings true or not.  If they can't dispute it except to say "that's a zionist trick" then we've already won.

That's a very good point, I've never thought of it that way. Another tactic would then be pointing out their lunacy.

I think you put too much stock into what antisemites say

That might be true, then again I don't know many other Jews who deal with it, so I don't have that community empowerment some Jews might have.

Opinions are just opinions, why put any weight at all behind them?

Well, I guess Hitler just had an opinion at one point, we just weren't powerful enough to keep it from influencing other people. But I will admit in that case I might be a bit paranoid, but just look at how rampant anti-Zionism has become because of a collection of opinions and white lies.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The word "propaganda" has negative connotations because it is commonly the term used to describe the methods the German nazis used to spread Jew hatred through sensationalist media.   The term implies incitement to hatred, but on the other hand when it is describing "propaganda" used by a certain group to promote itself, the term implies untruth.  But not all "propaganda" is untrue. 

Oh I know that, but we can both agree that the person I was reffering to used "propaganda" in a negative term, and to people being influenced by this against Israel don't always know that the world doesn't always mean a bad thing.

haven't seen any reason from you as to why you think it's not authentic.  Why not?

Well as I explained, it seems to do more damage than good, but I could always be wrong, which is why I wanted to hear opinions of people like you.

But I don't think you have explained what damage it can do?   If the arguments are good and valid points, there isn't a problem.   If they are weak and making stuff up, then there is.   But clearly that's not their intention.

[Axel]

You really seem to not be making sense. Why should we pretend as if we don't have to put any work into presenting our case in the media?

That's not what I mean, I just don't want people thinking that Zionists get all their information from some rule book that, in the eyes of our enemies and people they're trying to influence, would look like we have a status-quo of answering questions regarding Israel to make us look better than we really are. Do we really want people to think that Zionists learn tactics from a book that basically says, "say this in such a way to make you look peaceful".

Who says we have to be such worms?

No one really, I'm just tired of people seeing us as soulless creatures that cleverly twist information to suite our agenda. But I guess in politics such a thing is inevitable.

And you DON'T think that the Arabs ARE spreading lies in the media and academia?

Oh they do, but imagine the public reaction if some book came out that said:

Rule #1 - ALWAYS reffer to suffering Palestinian women and children (emphasis on the children)
Rule #2 - Always reffer to Israel as an occupying force, to make us look like victims and the underdog.

Get what I mean now?

Why do you think zionism is built on lies?   You have bought into the Arab lies.

I don't, but I assume the majority of people have bought into these lies. I try to see things from their perspective, to understand the situation better.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sounds like a natural and good strategy to draw certain parallels with America since THEY EXIST.

And I acknowledge that, but the average American patriot with no opinion of Israel might see it differently, they might think Zionists are using text-book tactics to brainwash them.

[/quote]

To point out a fact is not "brainwashing."  You can't tell the difference?  I don't believe that for a second.

It is not a "textbook tactic" of brainwashing to tell the truth and spread the message to people.   Usually brainwashing does the opposite.  
People have to use their brains.   If someone makes a claim, they have to analyze whether it is truthful or not.   They can't just deem everything "brainwashing attempts" or "propaganda" and shut themselves off to everything on that basis because that would mean every single thing they hear at any time and any place should be given no value since its purpose is to convey some kind of point or opinion.  This is not a human way to live.   A person can hear the message and decide whether he is convinced of the person's point or not.   Determining that the conveyor of the message is trying to promote a certain point is not the end of understanding.  In fact, it does not accomplish anything because that should be assumed from the start.  It is only the starting point.
The brain comes in to weigh arguments with fact and determine whether or not it's a true point or if they have successfully convinced you of their opinion with facts they offer in support of it.  Facts, not innuendos and opinions.

Everyone is trying to promote a point.  Saying that about someone is like saying a person has a heart beat.  Nu?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Opinions are just opinions, why put any weight at all behind them?

Well, I guess Hitler just had an opinion at one point, we just weren't powerful enough to keep it from influencing other people. But I will admit in that case I might be a bit paranoid, but just look at how rampant anti-Zionism has become because of a collection of opinions and white lies.

That's the whole point.   Jews were powerless to counter Nazi propaganda.   But if we have opportunities in the media (and just about anyone does today due to the internet, blogging etc), we have some type of political or media apparatus in Israel itself which Jews are in charge of, why would we not use this power/opportunity to combat the present-day Nazi propaganda manifesting itself in the form of Muslim and Western leftist lies about Israel?   That seems to be what that site is trying to do, although I disagree with them that Israel should continue receiving American aid and subsequent meddling in Israeli politics.  But there is no reason we should be powerless and victims to propaganda like we were in the past.   We should fight back in any way possible and counter the very dangerous lies being spread throughout the world. 

[Axel]

But I don't think you have explained what damage it can do?   If the arguments are good and valid points, there isn't a problem.   If they are weak and making stuff up, then there is.   But clearly that's not their intention.

I think you overestimate the enemies of Israel, most aren't interested in true discussion with valid or invalid points.

The damage can be done simply, it's almost becoming a social meme that Zionists are liars and are known for twisting the truth in media or watever. A book that shows how Zionists twist words to manipulate people is deadly to our cause.

I will repeat, I don't think Zionists are liars or twisters of truth, I'm seeing things from the perspective of our enemies.

Btw, the Author is Frank Lutz, he is absolutely hated for his ability to present things in a way to influence other peoples opinions using clever language. Nothing wrong with what he does, but people still see him as a shyster and a con-man. This book makes Zionists look like con-men, which is why I made the claims in the first place.

[Axel]

That seems to be what that site is trying to do, although I disagree with them that Israel should continue receiving American aid and subsequent meddling in Israeli politics.  But there is no reason we should be powerless and victims to propaganda like we were in the past.   We should fight back in any way possible and counter the very dangerous lies being spread throughout the world. 

Oh in that case I completely agree, we do need to fight back, albeit we're outnumbered 120 to 1, a different topic altogether.

My original point was only regarding this guidebook. I still think it seems too much like a conmans guide to maipulating people. If I, a hardcore supporter of Israel see it that way, imagine what someone who isn't would think?

One thing is using truth to fight lies, another is saying what words to use to manipulate peoples opinions of us.

Face it, anti-Zionists think we are liars, they will continute to do so, the dangerous part is they will influence others to think this way, and using this book as proof would help them.

[muman613]

I think it is inflamatory to compare a paper which discusses talking points regarding the middle east with the infamous forgery of a book which outlined plans for Jewish world domination. This is completely and utterly ridiculous to contemplate.

There is nothing wrong with documenting the talking points in the debate regarding the middle east. Those who think this is an issue are confused.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think it is inflamatory to compare a paper which discusses talking points regarding the middle east with the infamous forgery of a book which outlined plans for Jewish world domination. This is completely and utterly ridiculous to contemplate.

There is nothing wrong with documenting the talking points in the debate regarding the middle east. Those who think this is an issue are confused.

That is a very wise distinction and I agree with you 100%.