Non-Jewish supporters?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father.  We all cherish both mothers and fathers.   The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed.   It is passed through the mother.  That does not denigrate fathers.   The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.

 

But in a subtle way it puts more importance on the mother in the process of reproduction choice.

Importance with regard to whether the child is Jewish or not, with a Jewish soul, yes.   Importance in any other realm, no.  The father is important to give birth to a child and so is the mother, with different roles.
But as I already point out, which you seem to have ignored, whether the child is a Kohen or Levi, or in the line of the monarchy, there is more importance with regard to the father.   They have different roles in life.    The fact that a mother gives birth to a Jewish child while a father is dependent on the mother to pass on Jewish character to the child, does not devalue the father.  It doesn't carry a connotation, it just is.   Same thing with regard to the line of King David.  That a mother can't pass on this association without the father being a descendent of King David, is no slight at the mother.  It just is what it is.


 

If I'm to have a child with a gentile, my child would therefore be a gentile, my process in the whole thing is minimalized even tho by genetic logic, it doesn't make a difference.

Your "process in the whole thing" deserves to get minimized because it is forbidden to intermarry.  Equally forbidden for a man or a woman.   The woman is lucky that her child will still be born Jewish, but what kind of situation is that to raise a Jewish child in, if it's a non Jewish household?   Not a very good one.    He (the child of such a circumstance) is likely to not maintain the faith or pass it on.   And we see this bears itself out with Reform Jews in America.

How does a faith get passed on by a mother moreso than a father? 

It's not "faith" because what we speak of is independent of what the father or mother believe and what the child will come to believe in his lifetime.  It has nothing to do with that.  It is the inherent character of the child's soul.  You can't put a pricetag on that, and you can't really define it either.  We can only go by what the Torah says about it.

Also, is King David therefore not a Jew???

That's a rather peculiar question for several reasons.  If you suggest this because Ruth was a non Jew, the fact is that she converted.  It seems that she converted before she married Boaz.  That would mean Ruth's children were of course Jews, since she converted before having them.   But even if you say she didn't convert until after... So what?   She is the mother of David's grandfather , which means it is irrelevant if she was a Jew or not, since there is matrilineal descent.  It only matters whether David's mother was Jewish.  There is no evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, the evidence that Ruth converted is overwhelming anyway.   But like I said, that is ultimately irrelevant.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.

That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there).   It is also not merely defined by "religion."  You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing.   There are guidelines.  We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity.  And this is his understanding of the Torah.    Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.

So any Muslim who converts to Judaism therefore has a right to the land? I wonder if they thought of this yet...

If it is a proper conversion and they are sincere, YES.  And in that case they are no longer "a Muslim" once they convert.   If they are "pretending" of course it's not a legitimate conversion and no one will accept that.   But if they have the rabbis' approval and do commit to the mitzvot, yes.   

Just a minute ago, you were saying how hard it is to convert.  Now you seem to suggest that "Muslims" could very easily 'pretend' to convert.   You are being inconsistent, but I can see why.  You are building your arguments on irrational (and largely emotional) premises.

What about all the idiot negroes from USA who call themselves the "real" Jews? should Israel let them all in?

If you are speaking of "Black Hebrews" they are a cult and are not really Jews.   No Israel should not let them in, of course not.   But those black hebrews or black israelites that call themselves 'real Jews' ironically never converted and don't know the first thing about real Judaism.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Please tell me you're joking. Here I am arguing with you about the wether being Jewish is a genetic trait, and you don't see how that's relevant to an article about Jews being ethnicity defined by genetics? if you weren't a believer, I'd say some pretty derogatory things about now.

You shouldn't resort to derogatory things no matter who you are arguing with.  But I do appreciate your consideration to refrain here as well since you were tempted to do so with me.   I didn't read the article, it is very general.  It is wikipedia article about Ashkenazi Jews.   How is that an article defining "Jewishness" as an ethnicity determined by genetics?  You have no reason to denigrate my position because yours is inherently flawed.  This is a recurring problem with you.  You are using an anachronism.   There are a group of people called Ashkenazi Jews.  Originally this referred to a group of Jews who left the land of Israel and ended up in Germany (not France or other European areas, which were different groups).   Later it came to also include Jews of France, other places in western Europe, and these Jews also migrated to populate much of eastern Europe and so it came to refer to these Jews as well (those in Russia, Poland etc).    Now after the fact we have this group of Jews that is genetically/racially/culturally DIFFERENT from other groups of Jews, and so geneticists and eugenicists and others (racist or otherwise) try to classify this group as having certain related characteristics and distinctions from other groups.   How does that in any way prove that Jewishness is a genetic trait?   If anything it proves the opposite.  We all operate under the same premises here, that Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardi Jews OF TODAY are both equally Jewish populations and yet very different from each other.   They look completely different.  They sometimes act completely different.  They are racially completely different.   Yet they are all Jewish.   This proves my point, not yours.

What is an Ashkenazi "Jew" then?

A Jew who ended up in Europe and kept the Ashkenazi tradition of Jewish law and custom.  That's really it.    Originally he was from Eretz Yisrael, then moved to Bavel, or Italy, and from there to Europe, or perhaps from EY to the outer regions of Europe and migrated inward.   His ancestors ended up in Germany or in Russia/Poland, France, etc and may have either migrated to America in the mid 1800's to 1950's, or to Israel, or his ancestors survived the war and remained in Europe.   All thoughout this time, his ancestors clung to Jewish law and Jewish tradition (the Torah), generally refrained from intermarrying with surrounding gentiles, and kept Jewish life alive to an extent that would enable his own birth as a Jew from two Jewish parents or at least a Jewish mother.

Nowadays the tendency of Jewish people to marry their own kind has changed greatly over the past 50 years, much to our dismay.

Jew  (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

Is that wrong? does having a Jewish father not make the child partially related to the ancient Hebrews?

You're quoting a dictionary.   And I'm the one who's joking?

[Axel]

Kahane really I could argue this all day and all night, it would all boil down to an argument between an orthodox Jew and an agnostic Jew.

Lets just acknowledge that although we have different beliefs regarding religion and definition of Jews, we are both fighting for Israel and against Islamofacism in all parts of the world.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Does American law determine who is American and who is not?   Does Russian law determine who is Russian and who is not?

Yes, but an American can become a Russian at will. A Jew cannot become a gentile no matter how hard he tries,

Yes, that's right but that is irrelevant to the point I just made.   You agree that it is American law that allows an Russian to become a American, and Russian law that allows an American to become Russian.  And it is American law that decides who is and is NOT an American to begin with.  And if he's not, he has to go through a naturalization process to become one.

  As far as I know, American law does not allow an American to become a North Korean.  Or at least North Korean law does not.  But again, that is irrelevant.   The point is the same.    A gentile CAN become a Jew, based on the parameters set by the Jewish nation.   And the Jewish nation always sets its parameters based on what G-d outlined for us in the Torah and the halacha.

Nonsensical.  Judaism is not a race.  We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov.  (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc).  That is sufficient.  Why do you need it to be a race?

Well, replace race with ethnicity. Ethincally we are a sub-race known as the Hebrews. Who was the original Jew? an Arab? that's what we are then.

Genetically in that sense, yes we are "Arab"-like.   But we are not defined merely by genetics.  That's the whole point.  We are Jewish.   You want to change the word race to ethnicity.  Well ok.  Then my question has a new word in it.   Why do you need it to be an ethnicity?

And even if we are genetically similar to Arabs, or originally we were genetically Semitic, that has changed!  Jews who went to different areas acquired the characteristics of different places and different peoples.

Why do you take them to be true.

Because nowhere in history have Jews came forward and said, "Hey gentiles, we are not a race, we are just people of the ____ race who choose to practice this religion".  

Why would they have had to say that? In any case, it's also not true.   Jews are a people of mixed races.  The race part is irrelevant.  The whole point is that race is irrelevant.  Especially since we ended up in different places, our "races" changed.  It is a question of whether you can trace matrilineal descent from Jewish ancestry, or whether you converted to join this nation.   Yes, we are different from other nations and how they define themselves.  And we are distinct based on our own definition which we received from the Torah.

 That being said, a Polish person is similar in "race" to a Ukrainian person.   But they consider themselves very different.  And the Polish considers himself Polish based on a number of characteristics, not just how he looks, and they are of his own definition.  This includes political realities and identity.   The Polish never announced to the world, hey world we are not our own race but just happen to be the Polish nation.   Nobody does that.  Because that is silly.

So yes, antisemitism is not a truthful thing.  In that sense, it is a fiction.  It is not justified.   I realize this surprises you.  But the phenomenon of certain people having a hatred for Jews does exist.   

I understand this, but I just want you to look at the term, anti-semite, if Jews attribute this to us we would have to be idiots not to know it means anti-people of the semitic race.

   

Who is  "us" ?   You seem to be exposing yourself here as having a different association with SF then you first claimed.

And you're wrong.  It doesn't mean "anti people of the semitic race."  That was merely the term psychologists and/or sociologists first used to describe the phenomenon of Jew-hatred.  Of course the gentiles considered us a race in their inaccurate racial hatred.  So they were quick to latch onto this term and in part to try to justify themselves.  But that doesn't make it so.

Once again, Jew-hating gentiles and neonazis consider Jews to be a race and you are quick to accept their claims.  I am not quick to do so, and I do not do so.

It would then just be anti-Jew, like anti-Islam and anti-Christian.

No, again you are misunderstanding.  Being Jewish is not just a religion.   Just like the continuation of the jewish people is not based on "faith."   It is a mistake to think this way.   It is not merely that someone believes a certain thing he is a Jew.   We are a religion and also a nation.   It is a dual nature to our identity, and if that is different from how other people define themselves, so be it.   We were given the Torah to be a different nation than the others.  We are unique.  Nothing wrong with that.

And if you mean 'antisemite' really means "Jew-hater" and is an imprecise term to really say Jew-hater then yes I agree with you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Kahane really I could argue this all day and all night, it would all boil down to an argument between an orthodox Jew and an agnostic Jew.

Lets just acknowledge that although we have different beliefs regarding religion and definition of Jews, we are both fighting for Israel and against Islamofacism in all parts of the world.

This may be so, but I just want to point out one last thing, that if it only went by "Jewish ancestry" according to your definition, and having a Jewish father or mother somewhere up the chain of ancestry makes a person Jewish, then half of Europe is probably Jewish because of intermarrying in the 16-1800's, lots of Jews converting to other religions and ceasing to live Jewish lifestyles (absorbing into gentile populations or at least trying to), then producing gentile children/grandchildren eetc, and of course half or all of the middle east are all really Jews because of all those Arabs who were once Jews forced to convert to Islam, or just all the Arabs in general who descend from Avraham would all really be Jews.     Nobody honestly believes this, but this should be true according to what you are saying.

And furthermore, we do not say that a guy who 12 generations ago had a Jewish parent that raised a son with a gentile religion , and then he and all subsequent generations married gentiles, finally producing this one guy 12 generations later, even though prior to those 12 generations his ancestry was completely Jewish, we do not say that this guy 12 generations later, living today, is a Jew.  But according to you, he would be.   And even he himself would deny it.   

But in reality, if he was a guy who researched and realized he came from a Jewish family that married out or converted out, 12 generations prior to him, then saw himself as being descended from Jews, and identified with the jewish people and sought to return to his real ancient roots, he would have to convert in order to do so.  And then he would be Jewish.   Up until he converts, at that point he is just a physical descendent of Jews who is not a Jew himself. 

And there are many such cases of living people today who are descendents of major Jewish rabbis from before the 20th century, who are completely gentile and follow a gentile religion but just know that they have an ancestor who is the Chofetz Chaim for instance.   They are not Jewish nor would they say they are.   And I think you know this, so it is an inconsistency with your theory.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Not to extend this debate...

Yes, you are correct, KWRBT --- If one was to trace his ancestry or lineage PATERNALLY, and discovered he had a Jewish great-great-great-great Grandfather ---- then according to Jewish law, he is not a Jew.

BUT...

If this same person traced his ancestry or lineage MATERNALLY, and discovered his great-great-great-great Grandmother was Jewish ---- then according to Jewish law, he is a Jew. This would be true even if every single one of his great Grandmothers married Gentiles and raised their daughters as Gentiles -- they'd all be Jewish by ancestry, and so would he, regardless of what they considered themselves to be.

So interestingly, the notion of much of Europe (or the world for that matter) being Jewish without knowing it, would in fact be true -- if lineage was traced from a maternal standpoint.

[MasterWolf1]

I was born and raised in a Catholic household and 100% in favor of the Jews and Israel to succeed

[AsheDina]

Kahane really I could argue this all day and all night, it would all boil down to an argument between an orthodox Jew and an agnostic Jew.

Lets just acknowledge that although we have different beliefs regarding religion and definition of Jews, we are both fighting for Israel and against Islamofacism in all parts of the world.

Axel, you dont know what the hell you are. I know who you are though, you are a SELF HATING Jew that turned NAZI, and you have the a $$ at us. 

  Well, open up and tell us WHY you are so angry with the big bad JTF...

[AsheDina]

Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....

Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned

HA, the thanks I get for fighting for Jewish rights and fighting Muslim lies about Israel.

I thought 14 million Jews would at least work together for a better future, but now I see the true personality of some of you.

No wonder so many people hate us...

People hate YOU, Axel, because you are a weak person. 

[Moshe92]

Axel, I think you should stop posting on StørmFrønt. Even if you think you are against them, some of their ideas are clearly rubbing off on you.

[AsheDina]

Axel, you are a terrible liar also.
You dont 'take up for the Jewish people' LOL...you cant even be POLITE here on this forum, are you serious??  

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Not to extend this debate...

Yes, you are correct, KWRBT --- If one was to trace his ancestry or lineage PATERNALLY, and discovered he had a Jewish great-great-great-great Grandfather ---- then according to Jewish law, he is not a Jew.

BUT...

If this same person traced his ancestry or lineage MATERNALLY, and discovered his great-great-great-great Grandmother was Jewish ---- then according to Jewish law, he is a Jew. This would be true even if every single one of his great Grandmothers married Gentiles and raised their daughters as Gentiles -- they'd all be Jewish by ancestry, and so would he, regardless of what they considered themselves to be.

So interestingly, the notion of much of Europe (or the world for that matter) being Jewish without knowing it, would in fact be true -- if lineage was traced from a maternal standpoint.

That's true but the likelihood of that isn't great.   A person is much less likely to have a direct matrilineal descent to a Jewish 12thgreat grandmother as opposed to just any descent from a Jewish relative 12 generations back, mixing both patrilineal and matrilineal lines.   That is much more frequent.   And among those, they aren't actually Jewish.   But you're right if it's all matrilineal they would be.

[Teutonic Knight]

Hi, nice to have you.

I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.

I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc.  I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.

I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.

Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America

You've got to be kidding me.

Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.

You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? 

You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.

[ProudAndZionist]

Hi, nice to have you.

I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.

I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc.  I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.

I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.

Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America

You've got to be kidding me.

Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.

You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? 

You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.

AsheDina is Jew. What's your problem with her? What do you think who are you? If I had "Teutonic Knight" username I would be silent...

[cjd]

Hi, nice to have you.

I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.

I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc.  I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.

I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.

Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America

You've got to be kidding me.

Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.

You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? 

You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.

AsheDina is Jew. What's your problem with her? What do you think who are you? If I had "Teutonic Knight" username I would be silent...

If AsheDina says she is a Jew who are you to question it. I see your here to stir the pot. You really are picking on one of the wrong people.

[ProudAndZionist]

Hi, nice to have you.

I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.

I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc.  I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.

I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.

Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America

You've got to be kidding me.

Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.

You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? 

You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.

AsheDina is Jew. What's your problem with her? What do you think who are you? If I had "Teutonic Knight" username I would be silent...

If AsheDina says she is a Jew who are you to question it. I see your here to stir the pot. You really are picking on one of the wrong people.

This message was for Teutonic Knight? Because if you didn't see I was protecting our sister AsheDina... 

[Axel]

Axel, you are a terrible liar also.
You dont 'take up for the Jewish people' LOL...you cant even be POLITE here on this forum, are you serious??  

I was polite. I'm not going to be passive when I have a different opinion, sorry, but I decided to back down this time not to offend anyones religious  beliefs.

How this makes me a liar I have no idea, and frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

[Axel]

Axel, I think you should stop posting on StørmFrønt. Even if you think you are against them, some of their ideas are clearly rubbing off on you.

You might be right about that, in order to have the upper hand against them I'd have to often see things from their perspective.

[AsheDina]

Hi, nice to have you.

I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.

I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc.  I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.

I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.

Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America

You've got to be kidding me.

Ashedina, you are joke. You're not even a Jew.

You said your mom comes from a crypto-Marrano family? So are you going to tell me your mother has had a long chain of Jewish family completely unbroken since the 1500's? 

You're a joke. No rabbi would consider you Jewish unless you go through a conversion.

This a $$ is still here, just to make people feel like [censored], the a $$ goes or I go.
 I protect my brothers and sisters WITH MY LIFE, what does this maggot do, come here and treat people like [censored].

[AsheDina]

I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...

I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.

You could leave there altogether and start your OWN Blog and fight for the Jewish people on YOUR OWN.
How many Jews fought WITH the Nazis and lived?

Why do liberal Jews CONSISTENTLY hang with ENEMIES that HATE their guts, instead of fighting WITH those that fight the enemy TOGETHER?

[Axel]

I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...

I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.

You could leave there altogether and start your OWN Blog and fight for the Jewish people on YOUR OWN.
How many Jews fought WITH the Nazis and lived?

Why do liberal Jews CONSISTENTLY hang with ENEMIES that HATE their guts, instead of fighting WITH those that fight the enemy TOGETHER?

I guess because we are outnumbered, 14 million to 6 billion who could possibly hate us. Although in the long run I learnt that it's futile trying to change the minds of anti-semites, I also don't know what a blog will do other than tell fellow Jews what the already know.

[Ulli]

I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...

I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.

You could leave there altogether and start your OWN Blog and fight for the Jewish people on YOUR OWN.
How many Jews fought WITH the Nazis and lived?

Why do liberal Jews CONSISTENTLY hang with ENEMIES that HATE their guts, instead of fighting WITH those that fight the enemy TOGETHER?

Good points AsheDina. You are right.

[Lisa]

I just banned Axel a little while ago.  The last straw was when he compared Jewish circumcision to what Muslims do to little girls.

[~Hanna~]

Thankyou for banning him, he must have been related to all the others that have come through here lately...