Non-Jewish supporters?

[Historical Truth]

I'm not Jewish.

[Dr. Dan]

Question:

We have established that a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or someone who converts appropriately to the religion.

Now if someone was one of those two, what would have to happen for him to no longer be a Jew?  Meaning, if he/she has offspring and those offspring had to convert to Judaism...

[Confederate Kahanist]

Axel.  What do you mean by part Jewish.  You are either a Jew or not.

[ProudAndZionist]

Axel.  What do you mean by part Jewish.  You are either a Jew or not.

He means Jewish ancestry or relatives. I think.

[Axel]

Yes, you are talking about race.  But no, "Jewish" is not a race.   You only want it to be.  Sorry.

That's why it goes by the mother huh? *rolls eyes*

[Axel]

Question:

We have established that a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or someone who converts appropriately to the religion.

Answer me this; does a Jew have more say in who's a Jew than gentiles?

Example, a WASP has a child with a Jewish woman. Jews will then claim the child as their own, but what about the childs other side of the family?

[Axel]

Axel.  What do you mean by part Jewish.  You are either a Jew or not.

He means Jewish ancestry or relatives. I think.

Exactly.

[Axel]

I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of god, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.

I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?

Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.

And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

[muman613]

You Axel will believe only what you want to believe... Many, myself included, have explained to you that Oral law is equal to Written law and it is derived from Scripture. The rational for the law is sound and it is established. Your desire to change it is noted, but doesn't change anything...

Judaism is not a genetic issue. It is passed through the mother.

I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of G-d, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.

I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?

Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.

And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

[AsheDina]

I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of G-d, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.

I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?

Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.

And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

Why do you people come to these boards? IT IS OBVIOUS you DONT LIKE Jewish people, so WHY come here? Get lost, go commit suicide.

[ProudAndZionist]

I think many Jews here misunderstand what I'm saying. I understand that as I'm practically questioning your religion. But I'm not questioning anything that's sacred, or comes from the words of G-d, this is just as far as I know, oral tradition.

I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father. How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father apart from being defined by this so called oral tradition?

Therefore Jews have to acknowledge that they are themselves saying who is a Jew and who is not, and thus such a rule can be changed.

And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

Why do you people come to these boards? IT IS OBVIOUS you DONT LIKE Jewish people, so WHY come here? Get lost, go commit suicide.

I don't think that he doesn't like us. I think he is curious about Judaism, and maybe he should visit a religious site, because JTF is a political organization.

[AsheDina]

Are you joking?

Why would I be joking? You claim that the Torah says that Jews must go by the mother, I'm asking for proof for this claim. Not text observing the Torah, but an actual rule that says Jews MUST go by mother and mother only.

I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.

You are all over the map, here an on other forums as well. 
You need to go and REPENT and tell G-d that you are sorry. 
I believe in my heart, that you have brought much grief to your brothers and sisters and have a Nazi mentality.
 I dont know you, but this is what is coming to my heart as I am typing.

[Axel]

I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.

What? I already said, I'm a Jew who grew up in a secular family. I'm as of now agnostic.

My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.

There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that, learning about the Jewish ethnicity and fighting anti-semitism on a racial level.

What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.

This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't  been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. If it was sacred law, I'd understand, but not a single Jew here has been able to cite me anything that clearly stated this rule.

As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.

This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".

The only way I can be disproven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah. It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.

[ProudAndZionist]

I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.

What? I already said, I'm a Jew who grew up in a secular family. I'm as of now agnostic.

My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.

There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that, learning about the Jewish ethnicity and fighting anti-semitism on a racial level.

What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.

This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't  been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. If it was sacred law, I'd understand, but not a single Jew here has been able to cite me anything that clearly stated this rule.

As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.

This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".

The only way I can be proven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah. It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.

http://www.chabad.org/asktherabbi/default_cdo/jewish/Ask-the-Rabbi.htm
 

[Axel]

Another question; If I'm born a gentile and my mother converts, am I therefore a Jew by default?!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't see any reason why a mother is worth more than a father.

You continue to make straw-man arguments.   No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father.  We all cherish both mothers and fathers.   The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed.   It is passed through the mother.  That does not denigrate fathers.   The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.   And there too, it is not to devalue mothers, it is simply that they do not pass on that distinction in Jewish society.  Only fathers do.    Of course, you would argue that the son of a kohen woman should be kohen no matter if the father is or isn't, since just like everything else, kahuna (the priesthood) is "genetic" and a "race" of people that descend from Aaron.  This is ludicrous.   And again you would be the first person in Jewish history to claim such a thing.

How, in any shape or form, does a child become MORE Jewish by having a Jewish mother than father

It's not a case of more or less Jewish.  It is either Jewish or not Jewish.   We don't say 'hey you're less of a Jew because...."   Someone is either a Jew or not a Jew.  This is an existential question, not a value judgement.   Someone with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is not "less" Jewish, he's not Jewish at all.   He can be a fine gentile.  Or if he wants he can convert.   What makes it so hard for you to understand?

And for those that don't think being Jewish has to do with race;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

You quoted a wiki pedia article about Ashkenazi Jews.   Can you tell us something about it so we know what point you are trying to make?   This clearly does not support your claims.   Was this to inform us that Ashkenazi Jews exist?  Clearly we've gone over in this thread that they do, as do other groups, who together prove that genetics including racial features in the face and skin tone, do not determine whether someone is Jewish or not.   Ashkenazi Jews prove MY point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.

My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion. 

Originally it had to do with religion.  Then when racial theories, Darwinism, eugenics, and other modern hate mechanisms developed post-enlightenment, the hatred was redirected into a racial format.  This is a modern development that did not exist previously because theories of race, anthropology, sociology did not exist!  What basically happened is that they found scientific language of the time to express their already existing hatred.   Why you take their hatred at face value and assume it is on truthful terms is a reflection of ignorance of the historical development and ignorance of the facts.   When racial hatred of Jews first developed, they did not have complicated DNA testing, in fact, they didn't even know what DNA was at that time or that it existed.   So they weren't searching for Cohen genes and semitic genes and then labelling people based on that into groups.   So you are basically taking the terms of modern discourse (the discourse of modern racists and neo-nazis hijacked from scientific generalities) and now superimposing them, not only as if they are true (which they aren't), but as if they apply to the course of history.

This is an anachronism.   Throughout this thread you have failed to comprehend this.

  There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that

Again, you make the mistake of assuming that the antisemitism (of neo nazis and muslims) is based on a truthful foundation.  That there is some "reason" that justifies it.  It isn't based on truth though.  Hate is by definition irrational.  They will try to find any far-fetched explanation to justify and rationalize their behavior (and to sell their ideas and hatred to others) but that doesn't make it so.  That doesn't make it true.

What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.

Disown?    Are you serious?   There is no such thing as "disowning a Jew who has a gentile mother" because that person is not a Jew in the first place.   If he feels so "disowned" or disconnected and wants to join the Jewish people he can convert.    If a person is a Jew, he is not disowned by other Jews (or at least shouldn't be).   If a person is not a Jew, there is nothing to talk about.    Again, I need to stress here to you, because you seem to not understand this, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A GENTILE! .

And I will repeat what I said before, a person who has your views, if he is thinking of converting, he is not ready to convert because he has to learn to respect gentiles first.  You seem to think that any existence other than a Jewish one is worthless and to be denigrated.   THIS is racist.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't  been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. 

What's so ridiculous about it?   What's ridiculous is to say that an anachronism of your own making is somehow applicable to a nation's descendency when all throughout history that nation has not used that definition, and who has a law system set up to actually determine how the nation continues.  And that law system is not like you say it is.

If it was sacred law, I'd understand,

We've already told you that it is.  All of halacha is sacred law.   It is basically the body of law with which a Jew conducts his life in all facets.  EVERY rabbi understands that Jewish law says a person born to a Jewish mother is Jewish, otherwise not.

As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.

Well, gee, that should cause someone to think, shouldn't it?   'Every Jew knows this instinctively based on tradition and oral law and yet for some reason I think I'm right and every other Jew in the world is wrong, including our own tradition, and our own oral Torah.'   Please.

(Btw, oral law was written down about 1300 years ago, so it's not some old wives' tale, it's our entire body of Jewish texts)

And Muman has already cited several places.  You just don't accept them.  So why do you keep pretending as if you demand a citation and that will make your silly theories go away?

This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is". 

We have cited several places.  Kiddushin 68b says it explicitly.  That is the Talmud of Jewish law.   We are not just saying it is therefore this is how it is.  On the one hand you ask for citation, on the other hand you reject any citations as "Jewish law."    Well, gee, don't you think "Jewish law" which is based on the Torah, would have something to say about who is Jewish and who is not?

Does American law determine who is American and who is not?   Does Russian law determine who is Russian and who is not?   

The only way I can be disproven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah.

Nonsensical.  Judaism is not a race.  We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov.  (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc).  That is sufficient.  Why do you need it to be a race?

It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.

Antisemitism, the explanations for it, the rationalizations, the attempted justifications, ARE all fiction.   Why do you take them to be true.

What is true, is that a phenomenon in society exists whereby certain people have an innate hatred for Jews.  This is commonly termed "antisemitism," which just means Jew-hatred.  They will search for all hosts of excuses to justify their hatred, whether racial explanations, religious explanations, anti-zionist explanations, but they are all bunk.  Usually hypocritical, often dishonest, and always based on a distortion of reality.   

So yes, antisemitism is not a truthful thing.  In that sense, it is a fiction.  It is not justified.   I realize this surprises you.  But the phenomenon of certain people having a hatred for Jews does exist.   

So what?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.

That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there).   It is also not merely defined by "religion."  You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing.   There are guidelines.  We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity.  And this is his understanding of the Torah.    Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Another question; If I'm born a gentile and my mother converts, am I therefore a Jew by default?!

No.  You would need to convert yourself to be a Jew.   Or you could just be happy being a gentile.  It is always one's individual choice to make.    But if you are born a non Jew, you cannot become a Jew by someone else converting.  Even if it's your mother.  This mother was not Jewish when she had you.

[Axel]

No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father.  We all cherish both mothers and fathers.   The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed.   It is passed through the mother.  That does not denigrate fathers.   The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.

 

But in a subtle way it puts more importance on the mother in the process of reproduction choice. If I'm to have a child with a gentile, my child would therefore be a gentile, my process in the whole thing is minimalized even tho by genetic logic, it doesn't make a difference. How does a faith get passed on by a mother moreso than a father?

Also, is King David therefore not a Jew???

You quoted a wiki pedia article about Ashkenazi Jews.   Can you tell us something about it so we know what point you are trying to make?   This clearly does not support your claims.   Was this to inform us that Ashkenazi Jews exist?  Clearly we've gone over in this thread that they do, as do other groups, who together prove that genetics including racial features in the face and skin tone, do not determine whether someone is Jewish or not.   Ashkenazi Jews prove MY point.

Please tell me you're joking. Here I am arguing with you about the wether being Jewish is a genetic trait, and you don't see how that's relevant to an article about Jews being ethnicity defined by genetics? if you weren't a believer, I'd say some pretty derogatory things about now.

What is an Ashkenazi "Jew" then? and ethnicity happening to share the same noun as people of a religion described as "Judaism"?

Jew  (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

Is that wrong? does having a Jewish father not make the child partially related to the ancient Hebrews?

[Axel]

As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.

That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there).   It is also not merely defined by "religion."  You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing.   There are guidelines.  We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity.  And this is his understanding of the Torah.    Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.

So any Muslim who converts to Judaism therefore has a right to the land? I wonder if they thought of this yet...

What about all the idiot negroes from USA who call themselves the "real" Jews? should Israel let them all in?

[Axel]

What's so ridiculous about it?   What's ridiculous is to say that an anachronism of your own making is somehow applicable to a nation's descendency when all throughout history that nation has not used that definition, and who has a law system set up to actually determine how the nation continues.  And that law system is not like you say it is.

You keep saying I'm making this all up, this is quite illogical on your part and makes you seem oblivious to the beliefs of 99% of the world, which I'm sure you are not.

We've already told you that it is.  All of halacha is sacred law. 

So can you quote me this halacha which talks about the mother law? and what makes this halacha holy?

And Muman has already cited several places.  You just don't accept them.  So why do you keep pretending as if you demand a citation and that will make your silly theories go away?

He cited me the words of Rabbis giving their two cents on "who is a Jew", I want the direct quote clearly stating this sacred law. I will also admit right now that it won't change my mind about Jews not being a race.

Does American law determine who is American and who is not?   Does Russian law determine who is Russian and who is not?

Yes, but an American can become a Russian at will. A Jew cannot become a gentile no matter how hard he tries, unless he is a convert to begin with.

Nonsensical.  Judaism is not a race.  We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov.  (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc).  That is sufficient.  Why do you need it to be a race?

Well, replace race with ethnicity. Ethincally we are a sub-race known as the Hebrews. Who was the original Jew? an Arab? that's what we are then.

Why do you take them to be true.

Because nowhere in history have Jews came forward and said, "Hey gentiles, we are not a race, we are just people of the ____ race who choose to practice this religion".

So yes, antisemitism is not a truthful thing.  In that sense, it is a fiction.  It is not justified.   I realize this surprises you.  But the phenomenon of certain people having a hatred for Jews does exist.   

I understand this, but I just want you to look at the term, anti-semite, if Jews attribute this to us we would have to be idiots not to know it means anti-people of the semitic race. It would then just be anti-Jew, like anti-Islam and anti-Christian.

[Axel]

Originally it had to do with religion.  Then when racial theories, Darwinism, eugenics, and other modern hate mechanisms developed post-enlightenment, the hatred was redirected into a racial format.  This is a modern development that did not exist previously because theories of race, anthropology, sociology did not exist!

But don't you see, this in a way benefits my argument. As I already stated, people back then didn't know about genetics, which is more than likely what made them write the law of the mother. As several Jews on yahoo answers told me, you don't always know who the true father is, so this might be a reason for the original law. Unless you can later clarify the actual reasons for this law, I'm sticking to that belief.

Why you take their hatred at face value and assume it is on truthful terms is a reflection of ignorance of the historical development and ignorance of the facts.   When racial hatred of Jews first developed, they did not have complicated DNA testing, in fact, they didn't even know what DNA was at that time or that it existed.   So they weren't searching for Cohen genes and semitic genes and then labelling people based on that into groups.   So you are basically taking the terms of modern discourse (the discourse of modern racists and neo-nazis hijacked from scientific generalities) and now superimposing them, not only as if they are true (which they aren't), but as if they apply to the course of history.

They still no doubt had some ideas about it and some stereotypes. How can we deny that the major percentage of Jews share certain traits which make them identifiable as Jews? My success for spotting Jews is about 80%, it's not even shocking to see a celebrity, think he's a Jew and see on wikipedia "born to a Jewish family in...". Also, Jews always made sure to marry other Jews, so this also had a big part in identification of Jews.

Disown?    Are you serious?   There is no such thing as "disowning a Jew who has a gentile mother" because that person is not a Jew in the first place.   If he feels so "disowned" or disconnected and wants to join the Jewish people he can convert.    If a person is a Jew, he is not disowned by other Jews (or at least shouldn't be).   If a person is not a Jew, there is nothing to talk about.    Again, I need to stress here to you, because you seem to not understand this, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A GENTILE! .

Well that's the general idea. For example, my friend with a Jewish father who I went to synagouge with once (my step-father was a semi-practicing Jew so took us a few times). People joked how to Jews he's a gentile and to gentiles he is a Jew, I wonder what impression that made on him even when he looked like a Jew, faced the same hatred Jews (of course as you pointed out not a justification) and had a Jewish father.

You seem to think that any existence other than a Jewish one is worthless and to be denigrated.   THIS is racist.

Eh? I'm speaking about Rabbis and their views on fellow Jews... or Hebrews to be more specific.

The Jewish religion is the ONLY religion which is passed on through the parents (or specifically a mother for some reason). The ONLY religion that claims to be part of a certain tribe and the ONLY religion which where the idea is that we are the chosen people (something I don't believe). How can you be "chosen" if you can easily convert into the circle of the chosen people? how can you be related to the tribes of Yaakov if you're a Chinese convert and how can a mother pass on a religion better than the father other than due to a rule that I can't find an explanation for?

[Dr. Dan]

I believe that you are a super self-hating Jewess.

What? I already said, I'm a Jew who grew up in a secular family. I'm as of now agnostic.

My experience with anti-semitism therefore always had to do with race, not religion.

There must be a reason for that so I spent a lot of time studying that, learning about the Jewish ethnicity and fighting anti-semitism on a racial level.

What annoys me in particular is how religious Jews disown Jews who just happen to have a gentile mother, but now Jews who happen to have a gentile father.

This is ridiculous on all levels to someone who hasn't  been indoctorined by the beliefs of religious views. If it was sacred law, I'd understand, but not a single Jew here has been able to cite me anything that clearly stated this rule.

As far as I know, it's something Jews just instinctively know based on tradition and oral law which no one has yet cited to me either.

This just doesn't hold up in this argument, basically saying "the law said so, therefore this is how it is".

The only way I can be disproven now is to prove that Jewishness is not a race, this would therefore revoke any idea of Jews being related to Abraham, Moses, Jesus or the tribes of Judah. It would also make the idea of anti-semitism, fiction.

Nobody disowns a person born to a jewish father and gentile mother.  That person, if he/she wishes to be Jewish needs to go through a proper conversion process...that's the rule.