The Haredim are getting ready to bust out!

[galileerat]

The Haredi world is getting ready to bust out!

There is now such a burgeoning population of young Haredim, that something is gonna have to give soon.

They are all so overfed with high-sugar full of artificial additives inferior Kosher foods and drinks, so aware of Torah, so stressed out by over-crowding and sexual tensions, so aware of local Haredi scandals and internal sect intrigues, declining and uninspired weak leadership from their Rebbes and Ravs, so unemployed, underutilised and with their potential untapped, that if a Moshiach-type leader doesn't appear soon, there could be a some kind of a major schism soon in Orthodox Haredi Jewry.

Don't forget that the first Hellenisers, Saduceees, Christians, Shabtai Zviniks, Frankists, Maskilim, Reformers, Yiddishists, Bundists, Atheist Nationalists, Communists, Yevsektzia etc etc were all initially "Haredi" Jews!

What the Haredim are looking for at the moment is for some fatal "korbonos" at the hands of "the Zionist Nazi police" in the current rioting, so that they can all ascend to Har Hazeism and have an act of mass unity in a mass emotional catharsis with mass hespeidim for the fallen "kedoshim".



What's needed is a leader and rabble rouser who can utilise their vast numbers and energy to do something big and force the Geulah and march on the Knesset or storm the Har Habayis - somebody like Rav Kahane or Chayim - but wearing peyos and a shtreimel!

[Dr. Dan]

Undoubtably, Meir Kahane had a point of worrying about the Arabs in the future since they were multiplying faster than Jews.  Oddly enough, the Haredim are multiplying so much and so quickly compared to the secular Jews in Israel (many of whom are actually leaving the country) that it will be 5-15 years before Israel does become a Torah state...And from a Torah state, can a Kahanist rouse to citizens to show their pride and take back lands and be strong...This is my prediction.

[galileerat]

Unfortunately, unless somehow the hashkofos of the Haredim, most of whom are as far from Kahanism as a Meretznik, are quickly revised, Israel will become a Torah-observant anti-Torah state, with the Haredi groups warring endlessly between eachother!

Which is why Hashem sends a Hitler and an Ahmadinejad: to preserve some semblance of Jewish unity in the face of the gas chamber or the atomic explosion! Amolek does not distinguish between Haredi Jews or Chilloni Jews, between left wing or right wing Jews, between Satmar or Vishnitz, between Kahanists or Shalom Akshavniks......!

[Spectator]

Don't forget that the first Hellenisers, Saduceees, Christians, Shabtai Zviniks, Frankists, Maskilim, Reformers, Yiddishists, Bundists, Atheist Nationalists, Communists, Yevsektzia etc etc were all initially "Haredi" Jews!

This range includes all main kinds of Jews throughout the history. According to this logic, Religious Nationalists and Kahanists were also initially Haredi Jews. 

[Spectator]

Which is why Hashem sends a Hitler and an Ahmadinejad: to preserve some semblance of Jewish unity in the face of the gas chamber or the atomic explosion! Amolek does not distinguish between Haredi Jews or Chilloni Jews, between left wing or right wing Jews, between Satmar or Vishnitz, between Kahanists or Shalom Akshavniks......!

This is very true. That is why while staying confident that our position is the right one, we should always remember that all the Jews are brothers and try to avoid bashing other Jews without serious reason.   

[muman613]

Which is why Hashem sends a Hitler and an Ahmadinejad: to preserve some semblance of Jewish unity in the face of the gas chamber or the atomic explosion! Amolek does not distinguish between Haredi Jews or Chilloni Jews, between left wing or right wing Jews, between Satmar or Vishnitz, between Kahanists or Shalom Akshavniks......!

This is very true. That is why while staying confident that our position is the right one, we should always remember that all the Jews are brothers and try to avoid bashing other Jews without serious reason.   

I agree 100%... I have noticed that gallileerat has taken exceptional measures to bash one kind of Jew or another... I find that middot to be very, very dangerous. The Jewish people need to be unified, not seperated or divided.

I have just read that there has been an increase in employment of Haredi in Israel... I cannot locate the article on A7 at this time but it was on the front page two days ago...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree 100%... I have noticed that gallileerat has taken exceptional measures to bash one kind of Jew or another... I find that middot to be very, very dangerous. The Jewish people need to be unified, not seperated or divided.

Galileerat is the banned troll Mitflezet. Why he/she/it has not been rebanned is not something I can answer.

Hint hint, Lisa.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

somebody like Rav Kahane or Chayim - but wearing peyos and a shtreimel!

By definition, the type of Jew to take a real leadership stand and fight for the Jewish people like Chaim or Rav Kahane, this type of Jew does not wear a streimel.   As much as you may not like it, that is a fact.

And anyway, all the societal issues you are describing are equally a problem for the Litvak haredim, and I believe they have greater numbers than the edah haredit/chassidim.   Granted, you are blowing their self-conscious recognition of societal difficulties and level of despair way out of proportion, but there is a degree of truth in each of those problems festering in the society.   In truth I think most of those problems will work themselves out by necessity, including emergence of some fresh leadership, as hard as that might be to imagine there.... I think it is inevitable.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Don't forget that the first Hellenisers, Saduceees, Christians, Shabtai Zviniks, Frankists, Maskilim, Reformers, Yiddishists, Bundists, Atheist Nationalists, Communists, Yevsektzia etc etc were all initially "Haredi" Jews!

This range includes all main kinds of Jews throughout the history. According to this logic, Religious Nationalists and Kahanists were also initially Haredi Jews. 

That's because his statement was not accurate.

Haredi Jewry wants to present itself as the only legitimate continuation of what was once the Torah-observant masses of the Jewish people.  But this is not so.    When the modern day splinter groups arrived onto the scene, reform and conservative the main ones, prior to that, there was simply Jewish people who were mostly traditional, and mostly observant, with variations on personal levels to be sure, loyal to the rabbis, to chazal, and Talmud.   But after reform and C were invented (along with "bundists," "yiddishists," and many other 'isms'), "orthodox" came to be the term referring to this 'old guard' of Jews who came from the tradition and stayed with it.   Haredi Judaism is a new, modern phenomenon, and it is only one type of Jew that is an authentic continuation of the old guard of loyal observant, traditional Jewry.   Religious nationalists, modern orthodox, hardali etc are all variant expressions of a continuation of that old group - Jews, not perfect, but largely loyal to the Torah and keeping the mitzvot, loyal to the rabbis, to chazal, and to Talmud.

It is an anachronism to claim that Torah observant Jews of the past were "haredi."   Haredi describes a specific modern day overarching hashkafic point of view of one stream within "Orthodoxy" - one stream of the continuation of the old Jewish tradition.

In any event such terms are labels which always generalize and discount the individual variations of people who fit under the general branch of the label, and it is not good to label or make distinctions between good Jews, but the fact is that these terms do have a certain definition and general parameters that define political allegiances and hashkafot in a general sense.

[galileerat]

No! It includes all the main kinds of bad Jews throught history!
כל היהודים הטובים אתי
 - "All the good Jews are with me!" (R.Kahane 1986)

This range includes all main kinds of Jews throughout the history. According to this logic, Religious Nationalists and Kahanists were also initially Haredi Jews. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I agree 100%... I have noticed that gallileerat has taken exceptional measures to bash one kind of Jew or another... I find that middot to be very, very dangerous. The Jewish people need to be unified, not seperated or divided.

Galileerat is the banned troll Mitflezet. Why he/she/it has not been rebanned is not something I can answer.

My guess is he will come back here on an alternate platform anyway.   So probably no point to ban him.  Anyway, at least under this screenname, I haven't seen him do anything that is against the rules here.   He has typed some silly stuff about geocentrism, but in my opinion you can't ban a person for scientific ignorance.   Just my two cents.

[Mishmaat]

Galileerat is the banned troll Mitflezet. Why he/she/it has not been rebanned is not something I can answer.

Not happening! He's been given another chance to participate on this forum.

[Spectator]

Haredi Jewry wants to present itself as the only legitimate continuation of what was once the Torah-observant masses of the Jewish people.  But this is not so...   

Haredi Judaism is a new, modern phenomenon, and it is only one type of Jew that is an authentic continuation of the old guard of loyal observant, traditional Jewry.   Religious nationalists, modern orthodox, hardali etc are all variant expressions of a continuation of that old group - Jews, not perfect, but largely loyal to the Torah and keeping the mitzvot, loyal to the rabbis, to chazal, and to Talmud.

I agree with this. It is true that sometimes Haredim imply that since they study Torah many hours a day and very strictly follow some important halachic rules (modesty for instance), they are "holier" than the other Orthodox groups.

First of all, not all Haredim say so. The one who is truly righteous will not search reasons to feel better than the others. He will quietly study Torah, pray and observe the laws, and be happy in his service to the Creator. Believe me, there are many such Haredim. On the other hand, I noticed that those Haredi people who say they are better are usually not 100% perfect themselves.

Secondly, there are other very important commadments that the Haredim of course perform, but those who excel in them are namely other Orthodox groups. Yishuv Haaretz (settlement of the Land of Israel) is promoted by the Religious Nationalists. The Modern Orthodox often run successful businesses and give much money for tzedakah (charity). Both yishuv haaretz and tzedakah are cornerstones of Judaism. Moreover, if yishuv haaretz (which includes defense from the enemies) were not promoted, present-day thriving Haredi community in Israel would have been impossible. Also, many Haredim in Israel rely to charity given by many Modern Orthodox from the US and Canada.

One of the lessons of the Second Lebanon war was that Air Force, even as perfect and excellent as the Israeli one, cannot win the war alone. In the same way Torah study, being so holy and noble, cannot fulfill the Jewish mission alone.

Let alone the situation when air force stuff looks at the others as inferiors. To reach the goal we need the perfect interaction of all the units, which must start from mutual respect.

Only when all Orthodox groups will recognize the common goal, appreciate the advantages of each other, and function as cooperating parts of the greater whole, the Geulah (salvation) will be closer.

But if they quarrel with each other, this may lead to sinat hinam (unconditional hatred), G-d forbid. Don't forget that the Second Temple, which destruction we are about to mourn, was destroyed due to sinat hinam.

[galileerat]

The many complaint Hashem has against the Haredim is that not a peep was heard from them during the Gaza Deportation of 10,000 fellow Orthodox Jews.

[Spectator]

The many complaint Hashem has against the Haredim is that not a peep was heard from them during the Gaza Deportation of 10,000 fellow Orthodox Jews.

Are you sure you know the opinion of Hashem? When did you have the last prophecy? 

[Spectator]

..not a peep was heard from them during the Gaza Deportation of 10,000 fellow Orthodox Jews.

I agree, they didn't protest as they should have.

In 50-ies and 60-ies when the hundreds of thousands young Sepharadi Jews were forcefully secularized by the lestist ruling class, nobody protested - neither Haredim nor Religious Nationalists and other orthodox groups. And it is a terrible fact. So according to your logic, we must now despise all Ashkenazi Orthodox Jews?

[Manch]

Saduceees were never Haredi/Hassidic, in fact they were the 180 opposite of Haredism. In fact, modern Caraites Jews are philosophical descendants of Ssaduccess. Why would you say that communist Jews were Haredi when they were not? You are making too many broad strokes. I think that most of haredi/hassidic Jews are doing a great disservice to Israel and to Judaism. The sooner they'll leave their cults, the better.

[Yochai]

..not a peep was heard from them during the Gaza Deportation of 10,000 fellow Orthodox Jews.

I agree, they didn't protest as they should have.

In 50-ies and 60-ies when the hundreds of thousands young Sepharadi Jews were forcefully secularized by the lestist ruling class, nobody protested - neither Haredim nor Religious Nationalists and other orthodox groups. And it is a terrible fact. So according to your logic, we must now despise all Ashkenazi Orthodox Jews?

First off, I don't want you to think I agree with Galilrat, who seems to have a vendetta against the Haredim.  But let me say as a Religious Ashkenazi Jew, and I believe that many Kahanists agree with me, is that the Ashkenazi Religious Jews in EY have overall done many many bad things in regards to Sepharadim.  Of course they should not be hated, but they must be held responsible for how they treated the Sephards.

Then again, if the Religious Ashkenaz are to be held responsible, then the true culprits must be held even more responsible, which is the secular Ashkenazi Jews, whose destruction of Sephardi Judaism is partially responsible for the situation Medinat Israel finds itself in today.

[Yochai]

somebody like Rav Kahane or Chayim - but wearing peyos and a shtreimel!

By definition, the type of Jew to take a real leadership stand and fight for the Jewish people like Chaim or Rav Kahane, this type of Jew does not wear a streimel.   As much as you may not like it, that is a fact.

And anyway, all the societal issues you are describing are equally a problem for the Litvak haredim, and I believe they have greater numbers than the edah haredit/chassidim.   Granted, you are blowing their self-conscious recognition of societal difficulties and level of despair way out of proportion, but there is a degree of truth in each of those problems festering in the society.   In truth I think most of those problems will work themselves out by necessity, including emergence of some fresh leadership, as hard as that might be to imagine there.... I think it is inevitable.

You are 100% right that this is highly unlikely.  But think about how revbolutionary it would be, and how beneficial it would be to Am Yisrael, if the Shtreimel-wearing Chossids woke up.

AS for EY, the societal problems have hit the Chossids way more than the Litvaks, who do not shun modernity to the same extent as Chossids.

In EY now, you see the tensions that are rising, as many Haredim are becoming influenced by Religious Zionsim, much to the shock and fear of their parents.  This could lead to the bursting of a bubble in Haredi society, and a more united religious front in EY.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I have a lot of issues with the Haredim (primarily, their obsession with one or two issues to the exclusion of everything else), but these posts are just absurd. Mitflezet clearly hates religious Jews, period.

[Spectator]

..not a peep was heard from them during the Gaza Deportation of 10,000 fellow Orthodox Jews.

I agree, they didn't protest as they should have.

In 50-ies and 60-ies when the hundreds of thousands young Sepharadi Jews were forcefully secularized by the lestist ruling class, nobody protested - neither Haredim nor Religious Nationalists and other orthodox groups. And it is a terrible fact. So according to your logic, we must now despise all Ashkenazi Orthodox Jews?

First off, I don't want you to think I agree with Galilrat, who seems to have a vendetta against the Haredim.  But let me say as a Religious Ashkenazi Jew, and I believe that many Kahanists agree with me, is that the Ashkenazi Religious Jews in EY have overall done many many bad things in regards to Sepharadim.  Of course they should not be hated, but they must be held responsible for how they treated the Sephards.

Then again, if the Religious Ashkenaz are to be held responsible, then the true culprits must be held even more responsible, which is the secular Ashkenazi Jews, whose destruction of Sefaradi Judaism is partially responsible for the situation Medinat Israel finds itself in today.

This is right. I'm not going to whitewash the bad things that were done. All injustice should be recognized and condemned.

The question is where ends condemnation of the injustice and starts the blatant bashing of some group of Jews, be it Haredim or Ashkenazi Jewry as a whole.

[Dr. Dan]

Ok, perhaps I'm missing on giving a point on this issue.

In Israel you have the religious and the secular.  Very few types of Israelis who are somewhere in the middle.

Whether they are the hardcore non Zionist types or Zionist types of religious Israelis, they are the group who are having tons of children while the secular Israelis are hardly having any children...and even emigrating to other countries for a "better life"

What will happen over time is that the religious Jews will become the majority and essentially take over the government...in turn, Israel will become basically a true Torah state.

As a True Torah state, ideals will fly that are Kahanist and non Kahanist...but it will be the Kahanist Zionist groups that will win because they will be the only group that will ensure protection of all Israelis.

What I'm trying to say is that the Haredi are multiplying and growing strong...zionist or non zionist and that this is basically a good thing for the state of Israel.

I, myself, am not Haredi, but more of an "in between" Jew...

[muman613]

Saduceees were never Haredi/Hassidic, in fact they were the 180 opposite of Haredism. In fact, modern Caraites Jews are philosophical descendants of Ssaduccess. Why would you say that communist Jews were Haredi when they were not? You are making too many broad strokes. I think that most of haredi/hassidic Jews are doing a great disservice to Israel and to Judaism. The sooner they'll leave their cults, the better.

I really don't appreciate your denigrating Chassidic Judaism... This is my lineage and there are many great Torah giants who were Chassids. I can name so many Gedolim from the Chassidic camp including the Bal Shem Tov, Rabbi Nachman, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe... You cannot condemn all of Chassidus like this!

I am ashamed to have read this here... And during the beginning of the nine days...

[Manch]

The many complaint Hashem has against the Haredim is that not a peep was heard from them during the Gaza Deportation of 10,000 fellow Orthodox Jews.

Good point! I think of Haredi/Hassidic Jews as sanctimonious anachronism. The only exception I make is for Lubavitch Hassids - I respect them but I am not overly impressed with the ones in North America either. There is great number of Jews in Israel and USA who left Judaism and who are mocking Judaism because of these Hassidic Jews.

[Manch]

Saduceees were never Haredi/Hassidic, in fact they were the 180 opposite of Haredism. In fact, modern Caraites Jews are philosophical descendants of Ssaduccess. Why would you say that communist Jews were Haredi when they were not? You are making too many broad strokes. I think that most of haredi/hassidic Jews are doing a great disservice to Israel and to Judaism. The sooner they'll leave their cults, the better.

I really don't appreciate your denigrating Chassidic Judaism... This is my lineage and there are many great Torah giants who were Chassids. I can name so many Gedolim from the Chassidic camp including the Bal Shem Tov, Rabbi Nachman, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe... You cannot condemn all of Chassidus like this!

I am ashamed to have read this here... And during the beginning of the nine days..

I am sorry that you are offended. The Chassidic Judaism was an important part of Jewish self-preservation while we were in Galut. I think it is an unfortunate anachronism now and is a perversion of Judaism as I see it.