Need help explaining these verses

[Madmarv]

So as always, I was in debate with a muslim about Islam.
We were arguing about history, I told him that muslim crimes and terrorists are the only ones that have done so based on their religion, while christian/jews/any other ethnicity/religion terrorists were like that because they were far from their religion.
That is the difference between us and them. Between our history and theirs.
I asked him to give me verses from the bible which promote hatred and violence similar to the koran, and he gave me those:

"Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . "

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . "

Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . "

Exodus 32:27 ". . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "

Exodus 31:15 " . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Deut 21:21 "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . . ""

Now I told him that those could be taken out of context from a story in the bible, whilest in the koran the prophet himself did say and encourage these acts, which makes a huge difference.

What are your input to these? help me respond to the muslim better. ty.

[muman613]

We have a commandment in Torah called "Destroying Amalek".

http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/purim/vol5no17.html

Amalek was cruel to our forefathers as they made the exodus in the desert. Because of their cruelty Hashem has commanded the Jewish people to utterly destroy the memory of Amalek and his descendents, his woman and children, and his livestock.

Amalek is the opposite of Hashem in the world, Amalek believes that everything which happened for the nation of Israel was due to coincidence or nature. Amalek is evil and Hashem admonishes us for not carrying out this command.

Many great kings of Israel have failed in destroying Amalek. A descendant of Amalek was Haman who attempted to wipe out the Jewish people. Hitler is also believed to be a descendant of Amalek.

Jews should wipe Amalek from the face of the earth. If we only had the trust in Hashem we would be able to remove the evil from this world. With his help we may see the redemption, when Amalek is completely destroyed! Amen!

One of the quotes is the commandment concerning taking a woman captive. This is a good commandment because it teaches that men need to control their urges. One who takes a captive wife usually will end up hating her...

Torah is a complex subject and without understanding the Talmud the meaning will escape most readers...

Remember what Amalek did to you on the way when you went out of Egypt. That they encountered you on the way, and struck the hindmost, all that were weak at the
rear; and they did not fear G-d. Therefore it will be, when the Eternal, your G-d, gives you relief from all your enemies, all around, in the land that the Eternal, your G-d, is giving to you as an inheritance to possess it, then you shall wipe out the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens; you must not forget.

About the beautiful captive:

http://www.vbm-torah.org/Parasha/48kitetz.htm

 

A. Rashi

This reasoning is brought by Rashi in his commentary on Devarim: "'And you shall take her unto you as a wife' - the Torah only permits this in the context of the yetzer ha-ra, for if G-d would not permit her to him, he would marry her anyway despite the prohibition. But if he marries her he will end up hating her..." (Devarim 12:10). Following in the footsteps of the Sifri, Rashi understands the continuation of the parasha accordingly:

"'And she shall do her nails' -

i.e., grow them long until she becomes distasteful.

'And she shall remove her garment of captivity' -

for these garments are beautiful; the gentile maidens used to dress and decorate themselves in the midst of the battle in order to lead others astray.

'And she shall sit in your house' -

in the house which is his usual habitation, such that when he comes in he sees her and when he goes out he sees her, he sees her crying, he sees her distastefulness, in order that she become disgraceful in his eyes.

'And she shall cry for her father...' -

why? In order that a Jewish maiden will appear joyful and this girl sad; the Jewish maiden pretty and this girl disgraceful.

'And it shall be that if he does not desire her' - the Torah is already informing you that in the end you will hate her."

[Spectator]

Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy G-d hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "

1. According to Judaism, G-d never commands people what they are not capable to do.
2. Real deeds are more important than beautiful words and declarations.

Torah means here an all-out war like World War 2 and not a skirmish. There is a big difference between a man in normal conditions and during such a war. When a soldier has to kill every day, human life and honor lose their value in his heart. When he sees the violent deaths of his friends and relatives, his heart is filled with desire to revenge. He hates the enemy totally and wants to destroy all of them. When after this he sees a beautiful woman in an enemy town, G-d knows he won't behave nicely to her, to say the least.

Therefore, as Muman pointed out, if Torah forbade to touch that woman at all, the majority of people wouldn't observe it and would do all the horrible things they can even think of. So Torah gives the guidelines which way should the soldier behave in such inhuman conditions, and G-d knows the majority of people are capable to behave that way. After all, if you think what is being done to women during wars, the way Torah commands is not as bad. During 30 days of captivity (when he returned to normal conditions and is capable to behave as normal human being) it is forbidden to the soldier to touch her. After that he either marries her or sets her free.

In any case, this is not an obligation, not a commandment. If a soldier is righteous and can restrain himself despite the horrible things he experienced during the war, he should do it.

[Zelhar]

Ezekiel 9:6 : This is an excerpt from a prophecy about divine retribution to the sinful Jews of the first temple era.
Isaiah 13:16: Exactly the same thing, it is a prophecy about divine retribution and not a commandment to kill. Just read the whole passage.

Deuteronomy 13:15: Again read the whole passage. There is a biblical law that if a city (virtually the entire community) of Israel revert to paganism that city must be destroyed including the population (and presumably no rightful Jew would agree to live in such a sinful city).  It is also said by our sages that this law has never been applied and never will be. Essentially it is a theoretical, moral law, and one must refer to the Talmud in order to properly understand this law and basically any biblical law.

Leviticus 20:9: Yet another biblical law and without Talmud (Oral Law) cannot be understood properly. The capital punishment in this case is the maximal one but would only apply on rare conditions. And anyway, this is a law that applies on Jews under a Torah state and not for gentiles.

Exodus 32:27: This is the incident of the golden calf. Again a unique incident of punishment for unforgivable sinful behavior by some of the Israelite.

It's late now so I might continue this another night.

[mord]

If a soldier is righteous and can restrain himself despite the horrible things he experienced during the war, he should do it.

I'm not righteous but i have self control

[Spectator]

If a soldier is righteous and can restrain himself despite the horrible things he experienced during the war, he should do it.

I'm not righteous but i have self control

You have self control in normal conditions. So do I and most people. Have you even been to an all-out war where you had to kill enemy's soldiers evrey day? Have you experienced loss of your friends and relatives?  Saw atrocities, rape and murder? [G-d forbid us to be placed in such situation].

Are you sure you would manage to keep self-control in such conditions? Torah states most people wouldn't.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The people who G-d ordered killed were ALL evil Nazis who were set on destroying the entire Jewish people. If you doubt that children could be evil enough to warrant death, recall all the Fakestinian toddlers who dance around and throw out candy when an Israeli is blown up or shot.

[The One and Only Mo]

We shouldn't question G-d's Torah anyways. We can analyze,formulate and try to understand using the 13 ikarim, but never question it. Na'aseh V'nishma.

[mord]

If a soldier is righteous and can restrain himself despite the horrible things he experienced during the war, he should do it.

I'm not righteous but i have self control

You have self control in normal conditions. So do I and most people. Have you even been to an all-out war where you had to kill enemy's soldiers evrey day? Have you experienced loss of your friends and relatives?  Saw atrocities, rape and murder? [G-d forbid us to be placed in such situation].

Are you sure you would manage to keep self-control in such conditions? Torah states most people wouldn't.

Yes but i didn't rape women, o.k. now i see what torah says give it 30 days rest  before you touch the women so you cool down.

[GoIsraelGo!]

what does it mean in Isaiah when it's said ' I will melt the flesh off their bones?"

anyone know?

[Spectator]

If a soldier is righteous and can restrain himself despite the horrible things he experienced during the war, he should do it.

\
I'm not righteous but i have self control

You have self control in normal conditions. So do I and most people. Have you even been to an all-out war where you had to kill enemy's soldiers evrey day? Have you experienced loss of your friends and relatives?  Saw atrocities, rape and murder? [G-d forbid us to be placed in such situation].
Are you sure you would manage to keep self-control in such conditions? Torah states most people wouldn't.

Yes but i didn't rape women, o.k. now i see what torah says give it 30 days rest  before you touch the women so you cool down.

Yes, that's the core idea of this Torah passage - how to remain human even in such inhuman situation.

[Zelhar]

I continue my post.

Deut 21:10-12: This is a partial quote dealing with the law about taking a "pretty captive of war" to a wife. For its day it is a progressive law because its intent is to prevent the event from happening by requiring for the captive to shave her head and mourn for a month before she is permitted.

Exodus 31:15: A maximal capital punishment is set and like in previous examples it would only be rarely carried out, for Jews under a torah state.

Deut 21:21: This is the law regarding a "rebellious son" which like the law about a city that reverts to paganism, it had been stated such a case have never been and never will be in Israel. Essentially a moral law, the morality being that this son is so corrupt and irredeemably wicked  that it would be better for him to be killed than live as a sinner and lose his share in heaven.

[Zelhar]

what does it mean in Isaiah when it's said ' I will melt the flesh off their bones?"

anyone know?

Do you have the exact pointer for this verse ?

[GoIsraelGo!]

what does it mean in Isaiah when it's said ' I will melt the flesh off their bones?"

anyone know?

Do you have the exact pointer for this verse ?

No, but I read it in my tanakh. I think it was somewhere in Isaiah. I will try to find the exact verse and page, thanks Zelhar     : )
When I find it I will post it .....Shalom - Dox

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The bottom line is that the insane, self-hating Jews of today are in the trouble that they are in because they refuse to obey G-d's commandments regarding Amalek.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Zelhar, I found it, but I didn't word it correctly last time..sorry.

The page is 638 in the tanakh.  10.14

I think it is verse 16 and it says : and under it's body shall burn, a burning like that of fire, destroying frame and flesh.

What does that mean?

[muman613]

Zelhar, I found it, but I didn't word it correctly last time..sorry.

The page is 638 in the tanakh.  10.14

I think it is verse 16 and it says : and under it's body shall burn, a burning like that of fire, destroying frame and flesh.

What does that mean?

Page 638, eh? That doesn't help because you have not indicated which copy of Tanakh you are reading... Depending on which version you have the page # may be different. The best thing to do would be to read a commentary on this pasuk...

[muman613]

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15941/showrashi/true

According to Chabad translation Isaiah 10:16 Reads:

16. Therefore, the Master, the Lord of Hosts shall send leanness into his fat ones, and in the place of honor, a burning shall burn like the burning of fire.

and in the place of his honor: Under their clothing they shall be burnt. The garments [are referred to as “his honor” since] they command respect for the man.

a burning shall burn: A burning shall burn like the burning of fire. The Midrash Aggadah [states]: Here He repaid the children of Shem for the respect Shem showed for his father, when he covered the nakedness of Noah his father, as it is said (Gen. 9:23): “And Shem and Japeth took the garment…”

[GoIsraelGo!]

Muman, my Tanakh is a big blue book and it is titled as follows:

The Jewish Bible

TANAKH
The Holy Scriptures

The New JPS translation according to the Traditional hebrew Text.

Torah- Nevi'im- Kethuvim

Are the translations different when they go from Hebrew to english? I think there might be some difference, you probably know more on this.


                                                                  Shalom - Dox 

[muman613]

Muman, my Tanakh is a big blue book and it is titled as follows:

The Jewish Bible

TANAKH
The Holy Scriptures

The New JPS translation according to the Traditional hebrew Text.

Torah- Nevi'im- Kethuvim

Are the translations different when they go from Hebrew to english? I think there might be some difference, you probably know more on this.


                                                                  Shalom - Dox 

Shalom Dox,

Yes, this is the crux of many debates... It is ALWAYS IMPORTANT to understand the Hebrew first because english {or greek} translations are not precise. Hebrew is a very complex language and it is very difficult to accurately translate it into english, especially Biblical Hebrew because the words have multiple, layered meanings.

I find that the Artscroll Tanakh is the translation I usually stick to. I also use the Mechone-Mamre site online {which is a version of the JPS tanakh}. I also use the Chabad website I linked to above...

Read this about translations:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/essays/68.htm

Among all the nations of the earth, the Jewish people are unique, singled out for duties and responsibilities far beyond those of the others, a nation totally dedicated to G-d and His Torah. As befits such a status, they have a unique language whose very name expresses its nature -- the holy tongue. It is the language in which G-d revealed Himself to our forefathers Avraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov, the language in which G-d spoke to the prophets, and the language in which G-d delivered the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Torah to His people.

And yet, Moshe Rabbeinu, the Law-giver himself, translated the Torah into other languages. On the verse (Devarim. 1:5) "Beyond the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moshe began to expound this Torah," Rashi, the commentator par excellence, comments that "He explained it to them in seventy languages." [These are the main languages in the world, the others being variants, hybrids, or dialects of these seventy.] The value of this action might appear questionable at any time, but in the time of Moshe when all the Jews were together and all spoke the holy tongue, the translation was surely not for their benefit.

Moshe’s translation served a different purpose. His intent was not merely to express the laws of the Torah in different languages, for language in itself is nothing, being but a vehicle for thought, a means of communication. There are of course differences between tongues. The more precise the language, the clearer thoughts may be expressed. Language may be emotive or coldly factual, make people laugh or move them to tears. Some are primitive, others are more advanced. But these are all external variations, dependent upon man’s ingenuity and sophistication. Language itself -- letters, words, phrases, has no intrinsic value, but is merely the tool with which man builds and expresses his thoughts.

All languages that is, save one. The holy tongue is not just another language, albeit peculiar to the Chosen People. It is the vehicle for the word of G-d precisely because it comes directly from G-d. If letters are the bricks with which man builds, then those of the holy tongue are stones. Bricks are man-made; stones are created by G-d. Indeed, before men sinned at the tower of Babel and were dispersed to the four corners of the earth, speaking a variety of tongues, the holy tongue was the only language in existence. Its singular existence at that time reflected the Oneness of G-d in this world.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Thank you for the reply Muman, that was a very interesting read.


                              Shalom - Dox

[Zelhar]

Shalom Dox. In general, if you have an exact quote without place indication, you can google it and get to the right passage.

I am not claiming to be a Tanach expert, but I know from experience it is always important to read the whole passage in order to properly understand a difficult verse.

In this case, the passage refers to the Arrogance and boasting of the King of Assyria. Isaiah claims that he is only the axe used by god to destroy and punish wicked nations. And he foresee the destruction of Assyria itself.

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.  13 For he hath said: by the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I am prudent; in that I have removed the bounds of the peoples, and have robbed their treasures, and have brought down as one mighty the inhabitants;  14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the peoples; and as one gathereth eggs that are forsaken, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or that opened the mouth, or chirped.  15 Should the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? Should the saw magnify itself against him that moveth it? as if a rod should move them that lift it up, or as if a staff should lift up him that is not wood. {P}

and here comes the payback for this vanity:

16 Therefore will the Lord, the LORD of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory there shall be kindled a burning like the burning of fire.  17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame; and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day.

The chapter as a whole is rather complex, because it refers both to the punishment that God has prepared to Judah and Assyria, to the one he has already delivered on Aram and Israel, to the intimidate conflict between Assyria and Judah (which ended by a miraculous defeat of the Assyrians due to a plague after a long siege on Jerusalem), and finally a promise for better times of the survivors of Judah if they kept the covenant with god and rely on god rather than on foreign powers (Egypt and Assyria).

[GoIsraelGo!]

I like the babylon pronouncement....

Number 13

Verse 4, Hark! a tumult on the mountains-
As of a mighty force
Hark! an uproar of Kingdoms,
nations assembling!
The L-rd of Hosts is mustering
A host for war
They come from a distant land,
From the end of the sky-
The L-rd with the weapons of His wrath-
To ravage all the earth!

This clearly indicates war.
I wonder if Isaiah was foretelling about the wars to come during biblical times, or he envisioned our times? The future.
many of the pronouncements I have read in my tanakh seem to describe todays events. For example 'they will dash
your babes into pieces' and other things like 'they wear belts that cannot be loosened'
Was Isaiah describing the muslims and their acts of terrorism?

[GoIsraelGo!]

Shalom Dox. In general, if you have an exact quote without place indication, you can google it and get to the right passage.

I am not claiming to be a Tanach expert, but I know from experience it is always important to read the whole passage in order to properly understand a difficult verse.

In this case, the passage refers to the Arrogance and boasting of the King of Assyria. Isaiah claims that he is only the axe used by G-d to destroy and punish wicked nations. And he foresee the destruction of Assyria itself.

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.  13 For he hath said: by the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I am prudent; in that I have removed the bounds of the peoples, and have robbed their treasures, and have brought down as one mighty the inhabitants;  14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the peoples; and as one gathereth eggs that are forsaken, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or that opened the mouth, or chirped.  15 Should the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? Should the saw magnify itself against him that moveth it? as if a rod should move them that lift it up, or as if a staff should lift up him that is not wood. {P}

and here comes the payback for this vanity:

16 Therefore will the Lord, the LORD of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory there shall be kindled a burning like the burning of fire.  17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame; and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day.

The chapter as a whole is rather complex, because it refers both to the punishment that G-d has prepared to Judah and Assyria, to the one he has already delivered on Aram and Israel, to the intimidate conflict between Assyria and Judah (which ended by a miraculous defeat of the Assyrians due to a plague after a long siege on Jerusalem), and finally a promise for better times of the survivors of Judah if they kept the covenant with G-d and rely on G-d rather than on foreign powers (Egypt and Assyria).

Thank you for the tips about googling and your explainations.






                              Shalom - Dox

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes, this is the crux of many debates... It is ALWAYS IMPORTANT to understand the Hebrew first because english {or greek} translations are not precise. Hebrew is a very complex language and it is very difficult to accurately translate it into english, especially Biblical Hebrew because the words have multiple, layered meanings.

I find that the Artscroll Tanakh is the translation I usually stick to. I also use the Mechone-Mamre site online {which is a version of the JPS tanakh}. I also use the Chabad website I linked to above...

My rabbi understands that artscroll Chumash took some of it's translation directly from the JPS version which got theirs directly from a nonJewish source (I believe he said the king james version if I remember correctly)...

Granted, a lot about artscroll is good.   But just something to keep in mind.  I was rather surprised to hear that.

Just throwing that in there.