Can't Be Better-David Ben Moshe

[muman613]

I am not going to speak for AsheDinah but I have been able to find a discussion which touches on this topic:

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1876

Isaiah 11: And it shall come to passthat G-dwill recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. Jeremiah 23: The day comesthat they shall no longer say: 'As G-d lives, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt'; butthat brought upthe house of Israel out of the north country, and from all the countries where I had driven them'; and they shall dwell in their own land. Ezekiel 37: Behold, I will take the stick of Josephand the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stickI will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own landand they shall be no longer two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more.

That the Lost Tribes will be redeemed is echoed in Talmudic sources as well: To those who were exiled to the Sambatyon, G-d will say, Return! To those exiled beyond the Sambatyon, He will say, Become revealed! Regarding those who were exiled to Rivlata, G-d will make underground passageways through which they will come to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Midrash Yalkut Shimoni, Isaiah 49). The Mishna in Sanhedrin brings differing opinions, though: Rabbi Akiva says, the Ten Tribes will not return as it states, and He threw them into foreign lands like this day [meaning] just as the day goes and does not return, they will also go and not return. Rabbi Eliezer argues, and He threw them into foreign lands like this day [means] just as the day first becomes dark and then becomes light, so too the Ten Tribes who are now in darkness will in the future come to light.

The opinion of Rabbi Akiva is difficult to understand. How can he contradict the Prophets? And how is it possible that the Tribes, so integral to the Jewish people, will not be part of the redemption? The answer is based on the statement of the Sages that individuals of each of the Lost Tribes later joined the Jews who were exiled to Babylon (Megilla 14a). Accordingly, these prophecies reveal that the Tribes will be reconstituted from within the Jews who later returned to Israel. However, those who remained among the non-Jews will not return. Rabbi Eliezer, however, is of the opinion that even those who remained in exile will ultimately convert back to Judaism and rejoin the Jewish people.

So explains Tiferet Israel (Sanhedrin 10:3), It seems to me that Jeremiah returned many of them [to Judah] as we see in Megilla and Erechin, only that many remained mixed among the Gentiles. We know that many of them are in India, China and Ethiopia. They know only that they are Jews and they circumcise themselves and keep a few commandments. However, their worship of G-d is mixed with idol worship. On this point Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Eliezer disagree: whether in the future those who remained inter-mixed will return in strength under the wings of the Divine Presence. Because some of them are absolute idol worshippers, and have forgotten the name of Israel, yet some Jewish customs remain from their ancestors, as in the case of the people in Afghan, who some wise geographers see as forgotten Jews. [Rabbi Akiva is of the opinion that such people will not return to Israel, while Rabbi Eliezer argues that] also in Egypt all were idol-worshippers (Sanhedrin 103b), nevertheless G-d in his mercy opened their eyes by force and redeemed them [so here, such peoples will be returned to Israel].

May we merit seeing the Final Redemption speedily in our days!

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Muman, none of what you cite states that Jews are permitted to live outside of the Land of Israel. What you cite is an argument about whether idolators will be accepted back as Jews. Does that mean that idolatry is acceptable? Of course not! The only question is whether the idolators can do tshuva and become Jews again. If they remain idolators, they certainly will not be accepted as Jews and will have no place in the World to Come, the world of eternal life. There is no dispute about that. Just as Jews who live outside of Israel must do tshuva by making aliyah (moving to Israel). Because as it says in Ketubot, a Jew who lives outside of Israel is like someone who has no G-d.

[muman613]

Ok,

I realize that what I posted above may not pertain to the question of whether a Jew may remain in Galut, but it does discuss the fact that some Jews may seem to be lost to assimilation and then realize their mistake and do teshuva...

But here is something which I will look into further...

http://www.ravkooktorah.org/BECHUKOTAI_65.htm

The Torah warns us that if we fail to listen to G-d and keep the mitzvot, we will be punished with famine and war, and ultimately, exile.

"I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword after you. Your land will be desolate, and your cities in ruins." [Lev. 26:33]

The Purpose of Israel in their Land

Why should the Jewish people be punished with exile? To answer this question, we must first understand the true significance of residing in the Land of Israel. If the goal of the Jewish people is to bring ethical monotheism to the world, would their mission not be more effectively fulfilled when they are scattered among the nations?

There is, however, a unique reason for the Jewish people to live in the Land of Israel. They need to dwell together in the Land so that there will be a nation in the world upon whom G-d's honor rests; a nation for whom divine providence is revealed in its history and circumstances; a nation that will be a source for all peoples to absorb knowledge of G-d and His ways. Their goal is to demonstrate that divine morality can fill an entire nation - a morality that enlightens not only the private lives of individuals, but also guides the public paths of nations.

For the Jewish people to fulfill their national destiny, G-d's seal must be placed on the people as a whole. The nation must recognize its special mission as G-d's people living in His land. When the Jewish people as a whole abandoned G-d, even though many individuals still kept some of the mitzvot, the nation had lost their distinctive mark. The land was no longer recognizable as G-d's land, and the nation was no longer recognizable as G-d's nation. They saw themselves as a people like all other peoples.

At that point, the Jewish people required exile. They needed to wander among the nations, stripped of all national assets. During this exile, they found that they are different and distinct from all other peoples. They discovered that the essence of their peoplehood contains a special quality; and that special quality is G-d's Name that is associated with them.

Staying in Babylonia

We find in the Talmud [Shabbat 41a] a startling opinion regarding the nature of exile. When 4th-century scholar Rabbi Zeira wished to ascend to the Land of Israel, he needed to evade his teacher, Rav Yehuda. For Rav Yehuda taught that anyone leaving Babylonia for the Land of Israel transgresses the positive command, "They will be carried to Babylon, and there they shall stay, until the day that I remember them" [Jeremiah 27:22]. (Rabbi Zeira, however, disagreed with this interpretation. He held that the prophecy only referred to vessels of the holy Temple.)

Why did Rav Yehuda think that moving to the Land of Israel was so wrong?

Babylonia at that time was the center of Torah study. Great academies were established in Neharde'a, Sura and Pumbeditha. Jewish life in Babylonia was centered around the holiness of Torah. This great revival of Torah learning instilled a profound recognition of the true essence of the Jewish people. As such, Babylonia was the key to the redemption of Israel and their return to their land. Only when the Jewish people fully assimilate this lesson will the exile have fulfilled its purpose, and the Jewish people will be able to return to their land.

Rav Yehuda felt that individuals, even if they have already prepared themselves sufficiently for the holiness of the Land of Israel, should nonetheless remain in Babylonia. Why? The object of exile is not to correct the individual, but to correct the nation. The true significance of the Jewish people living in the Land of Israel - as an entire nation bearing the banner of the Rock of Israel - must not be blurred by the return of righteous individuals to the Land.

For Rav Yehuda, each individual Jew is like a Temple vessel. A vessel cannot fulfill its true purpose by itself, without the overall framework of a functioning Temple. So too, an individual can only join in the renascence of Israel in their Holy Land when the entire nation has been restored in its Land, via divine redemption.


PS: I am not arguing, Chas VeShalom , that we Jews should remain in Galut... I am just searching whether there may be any Talmudic argument for such a position...

[zionistfp]

Does this apply to biblical Israel or modern Israel?

Seems to me that as the son of an Egyptian citizen, Chaim should claim Egyptian citizenship and move to Al'Arish which is within the borders of biblical Israel.

[AsheDina]

שְׁאָ֥ר יָשׁ֖וּב שְׁאָ֣ר יַעֲקֹ֑ב אֶל־אֵ֖ל גִּבֹּֽור׃

A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.
Isaiah 10:21

I have to stay here to defend David. I am not part of the remnant that is returning to Israel.  I will die here in the Galut.  OR David will wake up, but I doubt it.

[AsheDina]

ANYWAY, should he WAKE UP, I think it would be BEST to wish us the best? Right?

[HEBREWHONOR]

ashedina - the text you mention does not speak on the galut at all , but about the war between assyria and judah and the promise of
g-d that he will strike the assyrian for their evilness and insolent words , and that the remaining jews of judah will return to g-d , and stop counting on eygpt for help ,but trust on g-d truely

[AsheDina]

I dont trust G-d less living here.

[HEBREWHONOR]

that is irrelevant  ,that chapter doesn't speak about the exile and who will return from it/who will stay there

living in israel is a mizvah , like tefilin and shabat ,  the exile is a punishment ...not a mizvah , loving the exile is like loving the lashing  of a whip

[AsheDina]

that is irrelevant  ,that chapter doesn't speak about the exile and who will return from it/who will stay there

living in israel is a mizvah , like tefilin and shabat ,  the exile is a punishment ...not a mizvah , loving the exile is like loving the lashing  of a whip

I think it would be BEST to wish us the best? Right?
It is a Mitzvah to saves lives as well, who is to know what G-d will do through our lives.. I don't believe that G-d is in a box, HH.. His words are not meant to be for any specific PLACE or time, it is everlasting to everlasting, b/c he KNOWS that we are human and repeat history. Many Catholic people saved Jews and Christians, so, who is to know that is not what we will do or not do..
The holy Scriptures are not taken out of context and G-d not in a BOX to me.
Again: I think it would be BEST to wish us the best? Right?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think that we need to let this topic go. It's not going to be a winning situation to continue to debate it.

Paulette and David's living choices are their business and their choice alone. Until every single Jew here makes aliyah, we don't have any right to attack them.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Guys,

Let’s look at this problem from a practical standpoint:

I believe, 9 out of 10 Jews at least once in their life seriously considered moving to Israel, but for obvious reasons (safety and economy) didn’t make an aliyah.

I think all of us here gathered to make Israel a safer and more prosperous state and thus give an opportunity for the Jews to move there and, once moved, to never even think of going anywhere else.

Thank you.

[HEBREWHONOR]

"I think it would be BEST to wish us the best? Right?"

i never said i wished jews who live in the exile , nothing but the best , and the best is , to listen to what g-d wants .


"It is a Mitzvah to saves lives as well"

since when one mitzvah prevent one from doing other mizvoth ?

the laws of halacha are specific , There are very few specific things that allow you to go to the exile , and then after its done/finnished (if its possible) ,one must return , or else its sin
other then this specific cases
jews went into exile not of their free choice it was a punishment , and since this punishment is over now , and jews can return to their homeland who is sovereigned by jews , they must do anything in their powers to do that and return , from your qoute it seems you understand hebrew :

לפי הציטוט נראה שאת מבינה עברית ?

כל רגע שהיהודים בגלות זה חילול השם, מהסיבה הפשוטה שהגוים רואים את היהודים בארצותיהם ורואים את זה כנצחון של דתותיהם הנפסדות חס וחלילה על התורה , כי הם חושבים שאם היהודים גרים בגלות אז הם לא יכולים להסתדר לבד וחייבים את העזרה שלהם חס וחלילה

if you didn't understood it , i will be happy to let you know what i said on privet message bli neder .


", who is to know what G-d will do through our lives.. I don't believe that G-d is in a box, HH.. His words are not meant to be for any specific PLACE or time, it is everlasting to everlasting,"

i tell you what ,"who is to know " well , thats g-d himself ,  g-d gave us torah , so we will know exactly what he wants from us , and yes he want that (from jews) to be in a specific place , not specific time , but specific place , erets israel . see dvarim 4:14 , when it clearly says , that all this laws were given and taugth to be practised in the land of israel
so this verse proves it is to be practised in a specific place for the jews
more then that , all the mizvoth was given to us to practise in the exile as well , as to ensure they will not be new to us when we will return back to israel


" b/c he KNOWS that we are human and repeat history. Many Catholic people saved Jews and Christians, so, who is to know that is not what we will do or not do.."

how catholics are connected to this subjact??
you only have to live in israel if your jewish , christians dont need to live in israel ,in fact , jews should not let any gentile lives in israel unless he accept 7 noah laws before a court of 3 rabbis and only under specific rules

the fact that someone can be a good person outside israel doesn't mean jews should stay in the exile , in fact , to reach your true full potential as a jew , israel needs to be a part of that

"The holy Scriptures are not taken out of context "
the verse you quoted is not speaking about the exile , that was only what i meant
"and G-d not in a BOX to me."

of course not , but he did tell us exactly what he want from us

[Dr. Dan]

that is irrelevant  ,that chapter doesn't speak about the exile and who will return from it/who will stay there

living in israel is a mizvah , like tefilin and shabat ,  the exile is a punishment ...not a mizvah , loving the exile is like loving the lashing  of a whip

I think it would be BEST to wish us the best? Right?
It is a Mitzvah to saves lives as well, who is to know what G-d will do through our lives.. I don't believe that G-d is in a box, HH.. His words are not meant to be for any specific PLACE or time, it is everlasting to everlasting, b/c he KNOWS that we are human and repeat history. Many Catholic people saved Jews and Christians, so, who is to know that is not what we will do or not do..
The holy Scriptures are not taken out of context and G-d not in a BOX to me.
Again: I think it would be BEST to wish us the best? Right?

Ashe, I didn't mean to start trouble.  It's not easy for many of us, including me to just get up and go and make an Aliya to another country.  Many of us might never make it there. 

However, it is important to acknowledge that idealistically all Jews should live in Israel..just like every Jew should be strictly kosher and strictly shomer shabbat.  To be any less and then justify it that it's good and ok is not right.

I will say it again, every Jew in galut should strive to make Aliya to Israel...to do anything less is not ok to say it's right the thing.

With that being said, I am happy for the both of you.  Enjoy your lives together. Grow together.  But don't forget: all hearts and eyes towards Jerusalem.

[Dr. Dan]

I think that we need to let this topic go. It's not going to be a winning situation to continue to debate it.

Paulette and David's living choices are their business and their choice alone. Until every single Jew here makes aliyah, we don't have any right to attack them.

It's not an attack, CF.  It's a correction.  If I were to say that I love ham and that it was ok to eat it because it was so delicious, I would probably be encouraging less religious Jews to do the same. 

If I were to say that I keep kosher, and say that I eat at nonkosher restaurants as long as it isn't meat and that it was ok, I would be also be encouraging less religious Jews to do the wrong thing.

When I saw this thread, I had to call it out and make a correction to the statements that were made.

But with everything said and done, I still wish the best...but I also need to add one thing: hearts and eyes towards Jerusalem; not Santa Fe.