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A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
muman613:
I celebrate Thanksgiving... I will travel to LA this year to visit my father who is sick...
But here is a more in-depth study of Rav Moshe Feinsteins position:
http://www.tfdixie.com/special/thanksg.htm#A04
A. The Approach of Rabbi Feinstein
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein has four published responsa on the issues related to celebrating Thanksgiving, all of which conclude that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, but a secular one. The first responsum, written in 1953/5723, discusses the deliberate scheduling of weddings and the like on religious holidays of other faiths. Rabbi Feinstein states:
* On the question of celebrating any event on a holiday of Gentiles, if the holiday is based on religious beliefs [by the Gentiles], such celebrations are prohibited if deliberately scheduled on that day; even without intent, it is prohibited because of marit ayin (24) . . . The first day of year for them [January 1](25) and Thanksgiving is not prohibited according to law, but pious people [balai nephesh] should be strict. (26)
Rabbi Feinstein reinforces his understanding that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday in a responsum published in 1980/5741. He states:
* On the issue of joining with those who think that Thanksgiving is like a holiday to eat a meal: since it is clear that according to their religious law books this day is not mentioned as a religious holiday and that one is not obligated in a meal [according to Gentile religious law] and since this is a day of remembrance to citizens of this country, when they came to reside here either now or earlier, halacha sees no prohibition in celebrating with a meal or with the eating of turkey. One sees similar to this in Kiddushin 66 that Yanai the king made a party after the conquest of kochlet in the desert and they ate vegetables as a remembrance.
* Nonetheless it is prohibited to establish this as an obligation and religious commandment [mitzvah], and it remains a voluntary celebration now; in this manner -- without the establishment of obligation or religious commandment -- one can celebrate the next year too with a meal. But, I think, nonetheless it is prohibited to establish a fixed day in the year for the celebration and it is only in the first year of the event, like when Yanai conquered, and then they had a party, and not for permanence. There is also a problem of adding commandments . . . (27) Even though one can question the source, it is still a real prohibition. (28)
Thus, Rabbi Feinstein appears to rule that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, and there is no problem of "Gentile holidays" while observing it. Nonetheless he prohibits its ongoing celebration as an obligation on a particular day because he feels that it is a prohibited addition to the Jewish calendar or creates a problem of adding commandments. While Rabbi Feinstein's objections to adding observances will be discussed later on, it is clear that he sees no problem in Thanksgiving's celebration as a Gentile holiday, and he appears to see no problem with eating a turkey meal on that day as a matter of choice, and not obligation. (29)
As proof to the fact that Rabbi Feinstein rules eating turkey permissible, one sees that elsewhere in the same teshuva Rabbi Feinstein states:
* Thus, it is obvious in my opinion, that even in a case where something would be considered a prohibited Gentile custom, if many people do it for reasons unrelated to their religion or law, but rather because it is pleasurable to them, there is no prohibition of imitating Gentile custom. So too, it is obvious that if Gentiles were to make a religious law to eat a particular item that is good to eat, halacha would not prohibit eating that item. So too, any item of pleasure in the world cannot be prohibited merely because Gentiles do so out of religious observance. (30)
Rabbi Feinstein then applies this principle to going bare-headed, and rules that even if some Gentiles do so out of religious fervor, since many people do so out of concerns for comfort, this is not considered a religious custom.
Rabbi Feinstein, in a recently published teshuva also written in 1980/5741, seems to state that in fact there is a prohibition to celebrate Thanksgiving, even though he acknowledges that Thanksgiving has no religious content. In this teshuva he views such celebratory activity on Thanksgiving as irrational, and thus prohibited as a form of imitating secular society. However, a close examination of that letter reveals that the only time Rabbi Feinstein would consider that conduct prohibited is if it was done with celebratory rituals associated with actually celebrating Thanksgiving, (perhaps reciting a text or singing a song), and not merely eating a meal. (31) Indeed, Rabbi Feinstein, in his fourth teshuva on this topic, clearly recognizes that even this is a stricture, as it is predicated on the approach which argues that secular rituals that have no religious origins are prohibited by the prohibition of imitating Gentiles (see the Introduction to this Part), which he states is not the normative halacha, but a mere stricture. In this teshuva, he states that the responsa block quoted above is to be considered the normative one. (32)
Rabbi Ephraim Greenblatt also permits the celebration of Thanksgiving by the eating of turkey. (33) He states that he has a responsum set to be published (34) that rules that it is permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving, because Thanksgiving is "only a day of thanks, and not, heaven forbid, for idol celebration." Rabbi Greenblatt adds that he posed this question more than thirty years ago to Rabbi Eliezer Silver and that Rabbi Silver also ruled that it was permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. (35)
That site also has the opinions of several of Rebbeim... Very insightful stuff...
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 29, 2009, 03:55:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: ~Hanna~ on October 29, 2009, 03:51:08 PM --- If you know what some of them did to the candy that they hand out, you would not have your kids treat or treating.
--- End quote ---
Oh for crying out loud. You check the candy. Like any responsible parent, you teach your children to check what is in their bag before eating it, or if they are too young, that they cannot eat anything without you checking it first. Listen, I grew up a secular American, and I trick or treated numerous times, and never had a problem. "If in doubt, throw it out" was the old refrain. But the vast majority of the candy is in the store-bought wrapper. If the wrapper is not disturbed in any way, there is not anything in the candy.
Regardless of that, whether you have irrational fear of trick or treating and candy-manipulation, says NOTHING (nadda, zero, absolutely nothing) about whether or not "celebrating" the holiday is allowed or not by Judaism. The vast majority of Americans do NOT 'poison' their candy that they hand out! Sorry.
--- End quote ---
Just the act of trick or treating for Jews is not appropriate for us. Jews shouldn't celebrate non Jewish holidays...and really we should be in Israel celebrating only Jewish holidays...that's what all Jews especially in galut should strive for...only practicing Jewish holidays...wishing well of gentiles of their holidays.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 29, 2009, 04:06:21 PM ---
We were talking about Halloween...
--- End quote ---
You quoted an off-the-cuff "psak" that mentioned a blanket term "gentile holidays." Halloween and thanksgiving qualify equally as gentile holidays. Thus why that statement you quoted was absurd.
--- Quote ---Also, if you read the yeshiva.org site it mentions Thanksgiving like this:
--- Quote ---
Regarding a holiday such as Thanksgiving, which does not have any connection with the Church, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein says that it is best not to celebrate it. (4) From this we can see that a holiday like Halloween that does have its origins in the Catholic Church is certainly something to be avoided.
4. Igrot Moshe, Vol. 8: Orach Haim, Part 5:20, sub-section 6; and Yoreh Deah
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
That is their own logical leap that they made. In any event, they are more accurate to say "It is likely that R Moshe Feinstein would forbid it as well." What they did was take his opinion and then pretend that that is the only binding halacha there is, and then make their own logical leap that they can freely apply it to another case based on a strange logic (connection to catholic church? Did that have any relevance to Rav Feinstein's ruling about Thanksgiving? Highly unlikely.)
--- Quote ---Maybe you consider Rav Moshe Feinstein to be too machmir...
--- End quote ---
"Maybe the other American gedolim and countless rebbeim who disagree with him about Thanksgiving consider him too machmir on that issue" is the more accurate statement to make. Don't make this about "me." And don't make this about attacking Torah personalities, which I am not.
--- Quote ---Overall I agree that there is no real problem with Thanksgiving per se
--- End quote ---
But you just quoted a halacha contrary to this statement where you say it is forbidden.
--- Quote ---but there are certainly halachic issues concerning Halloween...
--- End quote ---
There might be, but I am taking issue more with the method of dispersing information here and the selection of sources.
Moshe92:
When we make aliyah, we won't have to worry about Halloween or Thanksgiving. :dance: :dance: That's the ultimate solution.
nessuno:
Dressing up the child. Putting a leash on the dog. Going out to collect candy. No devil worship involved. Just having a little fun. Checking out the neighbors and their dogs. Haven't gotten or given poisen candy. Not once in 8 years. ;D I'm Catholic...so I guess it is ok.
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