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A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"

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muman613:
KWRBT,

I posted the entire decision according to Rav Moshe Feinstein. I don't know what you find so disturbing about it which causes you to take issue with me. I did not edit or hide any information. As always I have said that there are multiple opinions on the matter. Regarding Jews enjoying a non-Jewish religious 'Holiday' it is clear that it is forbidden.

But the opinion of Rabbi Feinstein concludes that Thanksgiving is a secular occasion and as a result there should be no problem with a Jew participating.... But the Rabbi also has reservations, as I have pointed out...


--- Quote ---Rabbi Feinstein, in a recently published teshuva also written in 1980/5741, seems to state that in fact there is a prohibition to celebrate Thanksgiving, even though he acknowledges that Thanksgiving has no religious content. In this teshuva he views such celebratory activity on Thanksgiving as irrational, and thus prohibited as a form of imitating secular society. However, a close examination of that letter reveals that the only time Rabbi Feinstein would consider that conduct prohibited is if it was done with celebratory rituals associated with actually celebrating Thanksgiving, (perhaps reciting a text or singing a song), and not merely eating a meal. (31) Indeed, Rabbi Feinstein, in his fourth teshuva on this topic, clearly recognizes that even this is a stricture, as it is predicated on the approach which argues that secular rituals that have no religious origins are prohibited by the prohibition of imitating Gentiles (see the Introduction to this Part), which he states is not the normative halacha, but a mere stricture. In this teshuva, he states that the responsa block quoted above is to be considered the normative one. (32)

32.  Iggerot Moshe Yoreh Deah 4:12. This teshuva was written in response to a questioner who noted that the analysis found in Iggerot Moshe OC 5:20(6), Iggerot Moshe YD 4:11(4), and Iggerot Moshe EH 2:13 seem to be at tension one with the other. Indeed, to resolve the matter in any way other than the one Rabbi Feinstein himself does requires a re-understanding of a number of teshuvot written by Rabbi Feinstein dealing with secular customs that have no religious origins -- activity that Rabbi Feinstein has repeatedly ruled permissible throughout his life.

--- End quote ---

I do not agree with you that it is a simple matter... Apparently there are halachic issues which should be considered. As I said, the site I posted lists several poskims opinions.

PS: Apparently the issue has to do with whether we give the occasion any religious significance through the recitation of non-Jewish prayers or other rituals... This is what I understand is why Rabbi Feinstein concluded that there may be some issue.

muman613:
In general Jews are commanded to not imitate Gentile customs:


http://vbm-torah.org/archive/sichot/vayikra/30-65kedoshim.htm


--- Quote ---"The customs of the land of Egypt, in which you dwelled, you shall not follow, nor shall you follow the customs of the land of Canaan, to which I bring you, nor shall you follow their statutes" (Vayikra 18:3).

What is the meaning of the repetition in this verse? What does the phrase, "nor shall you follow their statutes," add to the first part of the command?

In the following verse, we read: "You shall perform My judgments and observe My statutes." The term "judgments" (mishpatim) refers to those commandments whose reasons are clear, those which "had they not been uttered [by G-d], they would be worthy of being enacted [by man]" (Rashi, ibid). "Statutes" (chukkim), on the other hand, are commandments whose reasons are unknown to us - those which, from our point of view, appear arbitrary; there is nothing inherently negative about the prohibited activity itself.

We may explain verse 3 in a similar way. Commenting on this verse, Rashi writes: "This tells us that the customs of the Egyptians and of the Canaanites were the most depraved of all the nations." Hence, the customs of Egypt and Canaan are prohibited because of their inherent perversion, because of the depravity of the acts themselves. Indeed, the chapter does go on to describe acts of immorality which are abominations in and of themselves. But when the Torah speaks of "their statutes," it refers to ordinary actions that are not in themselves negative - just as, from our point of view, there is no moral imperative inherent to such laws as "kil'ayim" (the prohibition of mixing species) or the purification procedure involving the red heifer. Why, then, are these gentile customs forbidden?

The Torah does not want us to imitate the gentiles and their culture. We are not commanded, "You shall not perform their statutes," but rather, "You shall not follow their statutes." There is nothing wrong with the actions themselves; the problem is the very imitation of gentile ways and adoption of their culture. Clearly, if the act in question is positive and productive, it should be adopted, but if we are speaking of a mundane act that is performed only because "this is how the gentiles do it," with no inherent benefit, it is forbidden.

The Rambam writes (Hilkhot Avodat Kokhavim 11:1):

"We do not follow the ways of the idolaters, nor do we imitate them - neither in dress, nor hairstyle, etc., as it is written - 'You shall not walk in the ways of the gentiles,' and we are told, 'nor shall you walk in their statutes.' Rather, a Jew should be distinguished from them and recognized by his dress and by his other actions, just as he is distinguished from them in his thinking and in his character traits…."

The Kesef Mishneh comments here, in the name of the Maharik:

"Our teacher [the Rambam] meant here to prohibit only a style of dress that is particular to them, and which is avoided by Jews due to modesty or proper behavior. Since this outfit is worn by [the gentiles] for licentiousness, and Jews avoid it because of their Judaism, then when Jews dress in that way, they appear to acknowledge them and follow them. But if it is not a style of dress that is particular to them, then a Jew is not required by the same logic to distinguish himself from the gentiles at all."

There is no prohibition against performing any action that the gentiles perform; the prohibition involves only appearing like them and performing actions with the aim of being like them.

In the Ramban's view, this prohibition applies even to the service of G-d. The Torah teaches, "Guard yourself lest you be ensnared into following them, after they are destroyed before you, and lest you ask after their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I shall do likewise…" (Devarim 12:30). Rashi explains, quoting the Gemara in Sanhedrin, that the prohibition is performing idolatrous service in the way that it is usually performed. [Idolatry involves two separate prohibitions: a.) performing for a foreign G-d those actions that were performed in the Temple, even if those actions are not the accepted form of service for that G-d, and b.) performing actions for a foreign G-d when these actions represent the accepted service for that G-d.] Ramban rejects this explanation, maintaining that we are forbidden to serve G-d in the way that the gentiles serve their gods. His interpretation is based on what we are told in the following verse: "You shall not do so to the Lord your G-d."


...

--- End quote ---

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: muman613 on October 29, 2009, 06:41:35 PM ---KWRBT,

I posted the entire decision according to Rav Moshe Feinstein. I don't know what you find so disturbing about it which causes you to take issue with me. 
--- End quote ---
   

I'm not sure what you're referring to.   Did I say something was disturbing?   And I took issue not with you, but with your method of distributing halachic information.   The fact that you put up an entire discussion of a psak is actually a great improvement.   Yet, originally, prior to my complaint, you DID cite the opinion matter-of-factly, and it was actually the opposite of what you are saying now.


--- Quote ---I did not edit or hide any information. As always I have said that there are multiple opinions on the matter. Regarding Jews enjoying a non-Jewish religious 'Holiday' it is clear that it is forbidden. 
--- End quote ---

Yes it is, but you quoted a yeshiva.org snippet that claimed it is forbidden to celebrate ANY holiday of the gentiles.   Any gentile holiday.   They did not specify religious.   Just any non Jewish holiday.   That was what I originally questioned, and that is why I brought in Thanksgiving. 
And because a gentile holiday is not necessarily religious, and despite halloween's supposed "pagan roots" the fact of the matter is that holoween as currently practiced has nothing to do with anything religious in nature.  That's all I would really stress here.


--- Quote ---But the opinion of Rabbi Feinstein concludes that Thanksgiving is a secular occasion and as a result there should be no problem with a Jew participating
--- End quote ---

But originally you had said: 
--- Quote --- Rabbi Moshe Feinstein says that it is best not to celebrate it.
--- End quote ---

That implies it is forbidden.   And I don't really buy the logic that the above statement can be interpreted as "permitted but with reservations."   It's either kosher or it isn't.   And he says "best not to celebrate it."  That means according to his opinion I'm doing something wrong by doing so.   "The best" would be to not do anything wrong.  So it can't be both of these statements (or, it can't be this statement with this interpretation), since they don't fit with each other.

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Re:   Forbidden to follow hukath hagoyim

My gemara rabbi has stressed before that "chukas hagoyim" (as he says it) refers to superstitious and irrational customs.   Something that is just "stam" (plain) something that goyim do as a custom, but has rational, logical basis, does not fall under this category and is not forbidden.   I will have to search my notes to recall whom he was citing, but there was ample support for this.    Just throwing that out there.   

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
A lot of conservative Christians are opposed to Halloween, but I'm not. I think we need to have some perspective and common sense.

Trick-or-treaters are not worshipping satan or partaking in ceremonies with evil spirits.

That being said, I think it is up to parents to decide when and how their kids should participate. I just do not follow the opinion that it is pure evil in every way, shape, or form.

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