Author Topic: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"  (Read 10170 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ~Hanna~

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3615
  • Be a light in the darkness.......
A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« on: October 29, 2009, 03:34:21 PM »
Shalom Muman:

I would like to hear what the Torah teaches about celebrating the pagan holiday of Halloween.

As you may or may not know, this has it origions in paganism.

Thankyou, very much.  :)

SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 03:42:48 PM »
Hi ~Hanna~,

Personally I grew up with Halloween in my youth. As I started my religious return seven years ago I started to dislike Halloween for the reason which you stated.

I don't know if there is any hard-line halacha concerning Halloween... But I will do a search for relevant articles...


Here is an article which seems to answer this question:

Quote


http://www.beingjewish.com/faqs/halloween.html

Question: We just bought a sukkah for the first time in our lives and enjoyed the holiday. We go to temple every Saturday for services. Yet we still decorate for Halloween and go trick or treating {We are not kosher} My orthodox friends say this is hypocritical and I am giving my children a mixed message. I have always looked upon Halloween as being a fun holiday. What is the Jewish viewpoint on Halloween? I need to know the answer. Thank you.

Answer:

Mazel tov on your new acquisition! May you enjoy many happy years in that Sukkah! Sukkos has the unique element of bestowing holiness upon the Jews by virtue of a Mitzvah that surrounds us. Most Mitzvos are things we do, and when we do them, we personally manipulate holiness. The Sukkah surrounds us, and envelops us in its special spiritual warmth, and we thus manipulate holiness by doing things in the Sukkah, instead of to or with the Sukkah.

Halloween, however, has no such warmth or spirituality for a Jew. Quite the contrary, it can actually take away spirituality and holiness from a Jew. Part of this is because it is forbidden for us to adopt non-Jewish holidays. But that's not the only reason. Halloween has many elements in it that are simply wrong and contrary to Jewish values.

Before I discuss those, however, let me first suggest an alternative.

Purim is a holiday with a lot more fun in it than Halloween. Not only that, but on Purim we wear disguises and give gifts of food to friends and gifts of money and/or food to poor people.

In keeping Purim, you would be teaching your children a number of important lessons, such as the greater goodness of giving rather than demanding, and also the main lesson of Purim, which is that G-d helps people "anonymously," that is, while G-d remains behind the scenes. (See my articles at our Purim Gateway for an explanation of this concept.)

On Halloween people take -- in fact demand -- sweets from strangers. This alone is certainly not a good thing to be teaching children, not to mention that Judaism forbids such a practice. It is also considered terrible behavior.

Besides, there are also the pagan and christian concepts involved in Halloween.

Halloween is said to have originated as a Druids' holiday at the harvest season. They would light large bonfires to ward away evil spirits.

The Celts believed that Halloween was a good day to examine the future by means of magical practices. Magical practices are forbidden by the Torah whether or not they work. (Magic tricks done by sleight of hand are permitted, unless used to dupe or manipulate someone.)

So Halloween was a pagan holiday celebrated in Great Britain quite a long time ago, probably a thousand years before christianity existed.

When the Romans conquered Britain, they added some things to Halloween. Since it was also a harvest festival, they added the worship of Pomona, the "goddess of fruits and trees." Idolatry, as you know, is one of the three worst sins.

According to Wikipedia:

    The term Halloween, and its older spelling Hallowe'en, is shortened from All-hallow-even, as it is the evening before "All Hallows Day". In Ireland, the name was All Hallows Eve and this name is still used by some older people. Halloween was also sometimes called All Saints' Eve. The holiday was a day of religious festivities in various northern European pagan traditions, until it was appropriated by Christian missionaries and given a Christian interpretation. In Mexico November 1st and 2nd are celebrated as the Day of the Dead.

According to the Catholic Online Encyclopedia, the day following Halloween is known as All Saints' Day, followed by All Souls' Day, and those are indeed Christian holidays.

So, as you see, there is nothing about Halloween that has anything to do with any Jewish sentiments. Just about every aspect of it is forbidden by Jewish Law!

Again, consider keeping Purim instead. Jews have no need to celebrate Gentile holidays. Ours have so much more meaning and joy to us.

More Info:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/434666/jewish/Do-Jews-Celebrate-Halloween.htm
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=65
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 03:45:05 PM »
It is important to realize that there is going to be a more machmir position on this issue, and I'm sure there are also lenient opinions as well, because obviously the way it's practiced today, it has nothing to do with pagan ritual or anything religious.   It's just kids going around and getting candy.    So even if you fish out something that says it's forbidden, that does not mean that Judaism does not allow it.  There can be an opinion that it is allowed to go trick or treating, I don't know.    Either way, Jews should be in Israel practicing Jewish rituals, not staying back in America, for candy and sweets and large TV's and large SUV's...

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 03:49:08 PM »
Quote
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=65
Jewish law prohibits celebrating gentile holidays. (1) Furthermore, a Jew cannot engage in business with gentiles on their religious holidays, so as not to aid them in their ability to celebrate their idolatrous practices. Today, however, when the vast majority of gentiles no longer believe in the religious practices associated with their holidays, a Jew can engage in business with them, and even pretend to be happy with them, in order not to create animosity. However, a person who takes his Judaism seriously should avoid mixing with them if he can. (2)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ~Hanna~

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3615
  • Be a light in the darkness.......
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 03:51:08 PM »
Thankyou Muman, for posting that.

Kahane: in the "church's" today, many are turning Apostate. Where is all this evil coming from? There has been a return of paganism here in America, for years now.  If you know what some of them did to the candy that they hand out, you would not have your kids treat or treating.

SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 03:52:37 PM »
Quote
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=65
Jewish law prohibits celebrating gentile holidays. (1) Furthermore, a Jew cannot engage in business with gentiles on their religious holidays, so as not to aid them in their ability to celebrate their idolatrous practices. Today, however, when the vast majority of gentiles no longer believe in the religious practices associated with their holidays, a Jew can engage in business with them, and even pretend to be happy with them, in order not to create animosity. However, a person who takes his Judaism seriously should avoid mixing with them if he can. (2)


This is absurd.   According to countless rebbeim, a Jew not only is allowed but ENCOURAGED to celebrate Thanksgiving with his family (especially in the case of Orthodox Jews with nonreligious family members) to create a Kiddush Hashem.   Thanksgiving, would you say that's a "gentile holiday" muman?  Of course it is.   I strongly disagree with the fishing of halachic psak from these websites.   It seems you gravitate towards the most machmir possible position on every issue!

I don't remember, but it may be that Rav Moshe Feinstein permitted celebrating thanksgiving for American Jews.   At least some great gadol b'Torah did, and at least one might have been him, but I cannot remember off the top of my head.   To make blanket statements like you just quoted, is not right.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 03:55:25 PM »
If you know what some of them did to the candy that they hand out, you would not have your kids treat or treating.


Oh for crying out loud.   You check the candy.   Like any responsible parent, you teach your children to check what is in their bag before eating it, or if they are too young, that they cannot eat anything without you checking it first.   Listen, I grew up a secular American, and I trick or treated numerous times, and never had a problem.   "If in doubt, throw it out" was the old refrain.   But the vast majority of the candy is in the store-bought wrapper.   If the wrapper is not disturbed in any way, there is not anything in the candy.

Regardless of that, whether you have irrational fear of trick or treating and candy-manipulation, says NOTHING (nadda, zero, absolutely nothing) about whether or not "celebrating" the holiday is allowed or not by Judaism.   The vast majority of Americans do NOT 'poison' their candy that they hand out!   Sorry.


Offline ~Hanna~

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3615
  • Be a light in the darkness.......
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 03:59:17 PM »
I see.
Maybe I should change my name to Alice in Wonderland, then.  :laugh:
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 04:06:21 PM »
Quote
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=65
Jewish law prohibits celebrating gentile holidays. (1) Furthermore, a Jew cannot engage in business with gentiles on their religious holidays, so as not to aid them in their ability to celebrate their idolatrous practices. Today, however, when the vast majority of gentiles no longer believe in the religious practices associated with their holidays, a Jew can engage in business with them, and even pretend to be happy with them, in order not to create animosity. However, a person who takes his Judaism seriously should avoid mixing with them if he can. (2)


This is absurd.   According to countless rebbeim, a Jew not only is allowed but ENCOURAGED to celebrate Thanksgiving with his family (especially in the case of Orthodox Jews with nonreligious family members) to create a Kiddush Hashem.   Thanksgiving, would you say that's a "gentile holiday" muman?  Of course it is.   I strongly disagree with the fishing of halachic psak from these websites.   It seems you gravitate towards the most machmir possible position on every issue!

I don't remember, but it may be that Rav Moshe Feinstein permitted celebrating thanksgiving for American Jews.   At least some great gadol b'Torah did, and at least one might have been him, but I cannot remember off the top of my head.   To make blanket statements like you just quoted, is not right.

We were talking about Halloween...

Also, if you read the yeshiva.org site it mentions Thanksgiving like this:

Quote


Regarding a holiday such as Thanksgiving, which does not have any connection with the Church, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein says that it is best not to celebrate it. (4) From this we can see that a holiday like Halloween that does have its origins in the Catholic Church is certainly something to be avoided.
4. Igrot Moshe, Vol. 8: Orach Haim, Part 5:20, sub-section 6; and Yoreh Deah

Maybe you consider Rav Moshe Feinstein to be too machmir...

Also from Chabads site concerning Thanksgiving:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/448177/jewish/Thanksgiving-A-Jewish-Perspective.htm
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/709,2172785/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-Thanksgiving.html

And Aish.com

http://www.aish.com/f/r/48937837.html

Overall I agree that there is no real problem with Thanksgiving per se but there are certainly halachic issues concerning Halloween...

« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 04:11:38 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ~Hanna~

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3615
  • Be a light in the darkness.......
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 04:14:38 PM »
I like Thanksgiving.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 04:16:47 PM »
I celebrate Thanksgiving... I will travel to LA this year to visit my father who is sick...

But here is a more in-depth study of Rav Moshe Feinsteins position:

http://www.tfdixie.com/special/thanksg.htm#A04



A. The Approach of Rabbi Feinstein

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein has four published responsa on the issues related to celebrating Thanksgiving, all of which conclude that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, but a secular one. The first responsum, written in 1953/5723, discusses the deliberate scheduling of weddings and the like on religious holidays of other faiths. Rabbi Feinstein states:

    * On the question of celebrating any event on a holiday of Gentiles, if the holiday is based on religious beliefs [by the Gentiles], such celebrations are prohibited if deliberately scheduled on that day; even without intent, it is prohibited because of marit ayin (24) . . . The first day of year for them [January 1](25) and Thanksgiving is not prohibited according to law, but pious people [balai nephesh] should be strict. (26)

Rabbi Feinstein reinforces his understanding that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday in a responsum published in 1980/5741. He states:

    * On the issue of joining with those who think that Thanksgiving is like a holiday to eat a meal: since it is clear that according to their religious law books this day is not mentioned as a religious holiday and that one is not obligated in a meal [according to Gentile religious law] and since this is a day of remembrance to citizens of this country, when they came to reside here either now or earlier, halacha sees no prohibition in celebrating with a meal or with the eating of turkey. One sees similar to this in Kiddushin 66 that Yanai the king made a party after the conquest of kochlet in the desert and they ate vegetables as a remembrance.

    * Nonetheless it is prohibited to establish this as an obligation and religious commandment [mitzvah], and it remains a voluntary celebration now; in this manner -- without the establishment of obligation or religious commandment -- one can celebrate the next year too with a meal. But, I think, nonetheless it is prohibited to establish a fixed day in the year for the celebration and it is only in the first year of the event, like when Yanai conquered, and then they had a party, and not for permanence. There is also a problem of adding commandments . . . (27) Even though one can question the source, it is still a real prohibition. (28)

Thus, Rabbi Feinstein appears to rule that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, and there is no problem of "Gentile holidays" while observing it. Nonetheless he prohibits its ongoing celebration as an obligation on a particular day because he feels that it is a prohibited addition to the Jewish calendar or creates a problem of adding commandments. While Rabbi Feinstein's objections to adding observances will be discussed later on, it is clear that he sees no problem in Thanksgiving's celebration as a Gentile holiday, and he appears to see no problem with eating a turkey meal on that day as a matter of choice, and not obligation. (29)

As proof to the fact that Rabbi Feinstein rules eating turkey permissible, one sees that elsewhere in the same teshuva Rabbi Feinstein states:

    * Thus, it is obvious in my opinion, that even in a case where something would be considered a prohibited Gentile custom, if many people do it for reasons unrelated to their religion or law, but rather because it is pleasurable to them, there is no prohibition of imitating Gentile custom. So too, it is obvious that if Gentiles were to make a religious law to eat a particular item that is good to eat, halacha would not prohibit eating that item. So too, any item of pleasure in the world cannot be prohibited merely because Gentiles do so out of religious observance. (30)

Rabbi Feinstein then applies this principle to going bare-headed, and rules that even if some Gentiles do so out of religious fervor, since many people do so out of concerns for comfort, this is not considered a religious custom.

Rabbi Feinstein, in a recently published teshuva also written in 1980/5741, seems to state that in fact there is a prohibition to celebrate Thanksgiving, even though he acknowledges that Thanksgiving has no religious content. In this teshuva he views such celebratory activity on Thanksgiving as irrational, and thus prohibited as a form of imitating secular society. However, a close examination of that letter reveals that the only time Rabbi Feinstein would consider that conduct prohibited is if it was done with celebratory rituals associated with actually celebrating Thanksgiving, (perhaps reciting a text or singing a song), and not merely eating a meal. (31) Indeed, Rabbi Feinstein, in his fourth teshuva on this topic, clearly recognizes that even this is a stricture, as it is predicated on the approach which argues that secular rituals that have no religious origins are prohibited by the prohibition of imitating Gentiles (see the Introduction to this Part), which he states is not the normative halacha, but a mere stricture. In this teshuva, he states that the responsa block quoted above is to be considered the normative one. (32)

Rabbi Ephraim Greenblatt also permits the celebration of Thanksgiving by the eating of turkey. (33) He states that he has a responsum set to be published (34) that rules that it is permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving, because Thanksgiving is "only a day of thanks, and not, heaven forbid, for idol celebration." Rabbi Greenblatt adds that he posed this question more than thirty years ago to Rabbi Eliezer Silver and that Rabbi Silver also ruled that it was permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. (35)



That site also has the opinions of several of Rebbeim... Very insightful stuff...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12591
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2009, 05:10:42 PM »
If you know what some of them did to the candy that they hand out, you would not have your kids treat or treating.


Oh for crying out loud.   You check the candy.   Like any responsible parent, you teach your children to check what is in their bag before eating it, or if they are too young, that they cannot eat anything without you checking it first.   Listen, I grew up a secular American, and I trick or treated numerous times, and never had a problem.   "If in doubt, throw it out" was the old refrain.   But the vast majority of the candy is in the store-bought wrapper.   If the wrapper is not disturbed in any way, there is not anything in the candy.

Regardless of that, whether you have irrational fear of trick or treating and candy-manipulation, says NOTHING (nadda, zero, absolutely nothing) about whether or not "celebrating" the holiday is allowed or not by Judaism.   The vast majority of Americans do NOT 'poison' their candy that they hand out!   Sorry.




Just the act of trick or treating for Jews is not appropriate for us.  Jews shouldn't celebrate non Jewish holidays...and really we should be in Israel celebrating only Jewish holidays...that's what all Jews especially in galut should strive for...only practicing Jewish holidays...wishing well of gentiles of their holidays.

If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2009, 06:26:09 PM »


We were talking about Halloween...

You quoted an off-the-cuff "psak" that mentioned a blanket term "gentile holidays."   Halloween and thanksgiving qualify equally as gentile holidays.   Thus why that statement you quoted was absurd.

Quote
Also, if you read the yeshiva.org site it mentions Thanksgiving like this:

Quote


Regarding a holiday such as Thanksgiving, which does not have any connection with the Church, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein says that it is best not to celebrate it. (4) From this we can see that a holiday like Halloween that does have its origins in the Catholic Church is certainly something to be avoided.
4. Igrot Moshe, Vol. 8: Orach Haim, Part 5:20, sub-section 6; and Yoreh Deah

That is their own logical leap that they made.   In any event, they are more accurate to say "It is likely that R Moshe Feinstein would forbid it as well."   What they did was take his opinion and then pretend that that is the only binding halacha there is, and then make their own logical leap that they can freely apply it to another case based on a strange logic (connection to catholic church?   Did that have any relevance to Rav Feinstein's ruling about Thanksgiving?   Highly unlikely.)

Quote
Maybe you consider Rav Moshe Feinstein to be too machmir... 
   "Maybe the other American gedolim and countless rebbeim who disagree with him about Thanksgiving consider him too machmir on that issue" is the more accurate statement to make.   Don't make this about "me."   And don't make this about attacking Torah personalities, which I am not.


Quote
Overall I agree that there is no real problem with Thanksgiving per se
   But you just quoted a halacha contrary to this statement where you say it is forbidden. 

Quote
but there are certainly halachic issues concerning Halloween...

There might be, but I am taking issue more with the method of dispersing information here and the selection of sources.



Moshe92

  • Guest
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2009, 06:30:38 PM »
When we make aliyah, we won't have to worry about Halloween or Thanksgiving.  :dance: :dance: That's the ultimate solution.

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 06:37:17 PM »
Dressing up the child.  Putting a leash on the dog.  Going out to collect candy.  No devil worship involved.  Just having a little fun.  Checking out the neighbors and their dogs.  Haven't gotten or given poisen candy.  Not once in 8 years.  ;D  I'm Catholic...so I guess it is ok.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 06:41:35 PM »
KWRBT,

I posted the entire decision according to Rav Moshe Feinstein. I don't know what you find so disturbing about it which causes you to take issue with me. I did not edit or hide any information. As always I have said that there are multiple opinions on the matter. Regarding Jews enjoying a non-Jewish religious 'Holiday' it is clear that it is forbidden.

But the opinion of Rabbi Feinstein concludes that Thanksgiving is a secular occasion and as a result there should be no problem with a Jew participating.... But the Rabbi also has reservations, as I have pointed out...

Quote
Rabbi Feinstein, in a recently published teshuva also written in 1980/5741, seems to state that in fact there is a prohibition to celebrate Thanksgiving, even though he acknowledges that Thanksgiving has no religious content. In this teshuva he views such celebratory activity on Thanksgiving as irrational, and thus prohibited as a form of imitating secular society. However, a close examination of that letter reveals that the only time Rabbi Feinstein would consider that conduct prohibited is if it was done with celebratory rituals associated with actually celebrating Thanksgiving, (perhaps reciting a text or singing a song), and not merely eating a meal. (31) Indeed, Rabbi Feinstein, in his fourth teshuva on this topic, clearly recognizes that even this is a stricture, as it is predicated on the approach which argues that secular rituals that have no religious origins are prohibited by the prohibition of imitating Gentiles (see the Introduction to this Part), which he states is not the normative halacha, but a mere stricture. In this teshuva, he states that the responsa block quoted above is to be considered the normative one. (32)

32.  Iggerot Moshe Yoreh Deah 4:12. This teshuva was written in response to a questioner who noted that the analysis found in Iggerot Moshe OC 5:20(6), Iggerot Moshe YD 4:11(4), and Iggerot Moshe EH 2:13 seem to be at tension one with the other. Indeed, to resolve the matter in any way other than the one Rabbi Feinstein himself does requires a re-understanding of a number of teshuvot written by Rabbi Feinstein dealing with secular customs that have no religious origins -- activity that Rabbi Feinstein has repeatedly ruled permissible throughout his life.

I do not agree with you that it is a simple matter... Apparently there are halachic issues which should be considered. As I said, the site I posted lists several poskims opinions.

PS: Apparently the issue has to do with whether we give the occasion any religious significance through the recitation of non-Jewish prayers or other rituals... This is what I understand is why Rabbi Feinstein concluded that there may be some issue.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 06:47:11 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 06:49:38 PM »
In general Jews are commanded to not imitate Gentile customs:



http://vbm-torah.org/archive/sichot/vayikra/30-65kedoshim.htm

Quote
"The customs of the land of Egypt, in which you dwelled, you shall not follow, nor shall you follow the customs of the land of Canaan, to which I bring you, nor shall you follow their statutes" (Vayikra 18:3).

What is the meaning of the repetition in this verse? What does the phrase, "nor shall you follow their statutes," add to the first part of the command?

In the following verse, we read: "You shall perform My judgments and observe My statutes." The term "judgments" (mishpatim) refers to those commandments whose reasons are clear, those which "had they not been uttered [by G-d], they would be worthy of being enacted [by man]" (Rashi, ibid). "Statutes" (chukkim), on the other hand, are commandments whose reasons are unknown to us - those which, from our point of view, appear arbitrary; there is nothing inherently negative about the prohibited activity itself.

We may explain verse 3 in a similar way. Commenting on this verse, Rashi writes: "This tells us that the customs of the Egyptians and of the Canaanites were the most depraved of all the nations." Hence, the customs of Egypt and Canaan are prohibited because of their inherent perversion, because of the depravity of the acts themselves. Indeed, the chapter does go on to describe acts of immorality which are abominations in and of themselves. But when the Torah speaks of "their statutes," it refers to ordinary actions that are not in themselves negative - just as, from our point of view, there is no moral imperative inherent to such laws as "kil'ayim" (the prohibition of mixing species) or the purification procedure involving the red heifer. Why, then, are these gentile customs forbidden?

The Torah does not want us to imitate the gentiles and their culture. We are not commanded, "You shall not perform their statutes," but rather, "You shall not follow their statutes." There is nothing wrong with the actions themselves; the problem is the very imitation of gentile ways and adoption of their culture. Clearly, if the act in question is positive and productive, it should be adopted, but if we are speaking of a mundane act that is performed only because "this is how the gentiles do it," with no inherent benefit, it is forbidden.

The Rambam writes (Hilkhot Avodat Kokhavim 11:1):

"We do not follow the ways of the idolaters, nor do we imitate them - neither in dress, nor hairstyle, etc., as it is written - 'You shall not walk in the ways of the gentiles,' and we are told, 'nor shall you walk in their statutes.' Rather, a Jew should be distinguished from them and recognized by his dress and by his other actions, just as he is distinguished from them in his thinking and in his character traits…."

The Kesef Mishneh comments here, in the name of the Maharik:

"Our teacher [the Rambam] meant here to prohibit only a style of dress that is particular to them, and which is avoided by Jews due to modesty or proper behavior. Since this outfit is worn by [the gentiles] for licentiousness, and Jews avoid it because of their Judaism, then when Jews dress in that way, they appear to acknowledge them and follow them. But if it is not a style of dress that is particular to them, then a Jew is not required by the same logic to distinguish himself from the gentiles at all."

There is no prohibition against performing any action that the gentiles perform; the prohibition involves only appearing like them and performing actions with the aim of being like them.

In the Ramban's view, this prohibition applies even to the service of G-d. The Torah teaches, "Guard yourself lest you be ensnared into following them, after they are destroyed before you, and lest you ask after their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I shall do likewise…" (Devarim 12:30). Rashi explains, quoting the Gemara in Sanhedrin, that the prohibition is performing idolatrous service in the way that it is usually performed. [Idolatry involves two separate prohibitions: a.) performing for a foreign G-d those actions that were performed in the Temple, even if those actions are not the accepted form of service for that G-d, and b.) performing actions for a foreign G-d when these actions represent the accepted service for that G-d.] Ramban rejects this explanation, maintaining that we are forbidden to serve G-d in the way that the gentiles serve their gods. His interpretation is based on what we are told in the following verse: "You shall not do so to the Lord your G-d."


...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 06:58:25 PM »
KWRBT,

I posted the entire decision according to Rav Moshe Feinstein. I don't know what you find so disturbing about it which causes you to take issue with me. 
   

I'm not sure what you're referring to.   Did I say something was disturbing?   And I took issue not with you, but with your method of distributing halachic information.   The fact that you put up an entire discussion of a psak is actually a great improvement.   Yet, originally, prior to my complaint, you DID cite the opinion matter-of-factly, and it was actually the opposite of what you are saying now.

Quote
I did not edit or hide any information. As always I have said that there are multiple opinions on the matter. Regarding Jews enjoying a non-Jewish religious 'Holiday' it is clear that it is forbidden. 

Yes it is, but you quoted a yeshiva.org snippet that claimed it is forbidden to celebrate ANY holiday of the gentiles.   Any gentile holiday.   They did not specify religious.   Just any non Jewish holiday.   That was what I originally questioned, and that is why I brought in Thanksgiving. 
And because a gentile holiday is not necessarily religious, and despite halloween's supposed "pagan roots" the fact of the matter is that holoween as currently practiced has nothing to do with anything religious in nature.  That's all I would really stress here.

Quote
But the opinion of Rabbi Feinstein concludes that Thanksgiving is a secular occasion and as a result there should be no problem with a Jew participating

But originally you had said: 
Quote
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein says that it is best not to celebrate it.

That implies it is forbidden.   And I don't really buy the logic that the above statement can be interpreted as "permitted but with reservations."   It's either kosher or it isn't.   And he says "best not to celebrate it."  That means according to his opinion I'm doing something wrong by doing so.   "The best" would be to not do anything wrong.  So it can't be both of these statements (or, it can't be this statement with this interpretation), since they don't fit with each other.



Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 07:01:18 PM »
Re:   Forbidden to follow hukath hagoyim

My gemara rabbi has stressed before that "chukas hagoyim" (as he says it) refers to superstitious and irrational customs.   Something that is just "stam" (plain) something that goyim do as a custom, but has rational, logical basis, does not fall under this category and is not forbidden.   I will have to search my notes to recall whom he was citing, but there was ample support for this.    Just throwing that out there.   

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 07:03:18 PM »
A lot of conservative Christians are opposed to Halloween, but I'm not. I think we need to have some perspective and common sense.

Trick-or-treaters are not worshipping satan or partaking in ceremonies with evil spirits.

That being said, I think it is up to parents to decide when and how their kids should participate. I just do not follow the opinion that it is pure evil in every way, shape, or form.

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 07:04:01 PM »

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 07:04:39 PM »
Let me just remind everyone that I am not an expert, by any means.... I have only been studying for five years and only learn what I can get from my local Rabbis and on the Internet...

I try to portray all the available opinions because it is wrong to twist the opinions of Rabbis to suit your own interests.

I hope that this is clear to everyone...

I am open to hearing other opinions also.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2009, 07:04:57 PM »
I do not agree with you that it is a simple matter... Apparently there are halachic issues which should be considered.

Did I say it was "simple?"  Where?

That countless rebbeim/poskim consider celebrating thanksgiving completely mutar (permitted) is simply a reality.  That does not mean that the issue is simple.  Just that it is a rather simple action to acknowledge such a fact.   Forgive me for playing around with the word simple here in jest, but I really do not recall anywhere classifying this issue as simple.    Only the omission that you seemed to have engaged in, did I consider simple.

Quote
PS: Apparently the issue has to do with whether we give the occasion any religious significance through the recitation of non-Jewish prayers or other rituals... This is what I understand is why Rabbi Feinstein concluded that there may be some issue.

Secular Jews reciting prayers (of any kind, and at a family get-together no less)?   Orthodox Jews reciting non-Jewish prayers?   I will state the obvious here by saying, this is quite far-fetched, with all due respect.

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2009, 07:08:14 PM »
OOPS!  I forget we bought a red devil outfit for the dog.  We promise not to worship him.  Maybe I'll post pictures.  :::D
PS.  We only dress up the dog for Halloween.  After all we're not crazy.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Moshe92

  • Guest
Re: A Question for MUMAN concerning "Halloween"
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2009, 07:08:57 PM »
A lot of conservative Christians are opposed to Halloween, but I'm not. I think we need to have some perspective and common sense.

Trick-or-treaters are not worshipping satan or partaking in ceremonies with evil spirits.

That being said, I think it is up to parents to decide when and how their kids should participate. I just do not follow the opinion that it is pure evil in every way, shape, or form.

I agree. It depends on how people participate.

One problem with Halloween is that some use it as an opportunity to dress immodestly. I know a kid my age who said that he's going to a Halloween party and is dressing up as a male stripper. However, parents have control over things like that.