Can you be a righteous Muslim?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

A question inspired by Chaim's recent comments on whether Muslims really believe in the one true G-d: is it theoretically possible to be a righteous Gentile or Noahide Muslim?

Chaim stated on this week's Ask JTF that it is a key point of Torah Judaism to accept that Muslims do in fact believe in the one true G-d (based on the conclusions of Maimonides), and I believe having heard/read that in principle, a Jew could convert to Islam and not be guilty of sin (depending on how literally he or she meant it, of course). Does this mean that it is in principle possible to be a righteous Muslim?

As I think we all know, at the time of Maimonides Christianity was far more anti-Semitic than Islam, which at that time generally accepted Jews as second-class dhimmi citizens and permitted them to live out their lives for the most part. The difference was one of constant pogroms vs. occasional ones, so obviously there was a substantial difference in Islamic (and Christian) philosophy then as opposed to now. Were there any Muslims during this so-called "golden age" who were analogous to Christian Zionists today and genuinely loved and supported Jews?

Bonesfan

[Spectator]

Wow, that's great topic. I don't know if there can be a Noahide Muslim, but I can definitely say that there were Muslims in history who were very good to the Jews. For example, Suleiman the Magnificient, the Sultan of Ottoman Empire.

Here is a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall
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In 1517 the Turkish Ottoman Empire under Selim I conquered Jerusalem from the Mamluks who had held it since 1250. The Ottomans had a benevolent attitude towards the Jews, having welcomed thousands of Jewish refugees who had recently been expelled from Spain by Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile in 1492. Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent was so taken with Jerusalem and its plight that he ordered a magnificent fortress-wall built around the entire city, today's Old City wall.

There are various accounts of Suleiman's efforts to locate the Temple's ruins. Rabbi Eliezer Nachman Puah, (ca. 1540), relates:

”I have been told that in the day of Sultan Suleiman the site of the Temple was not known and the Sultan had every corner of Jerusalem searched for it. One day the man in charge of the work, despairing after much searching and inquiring in vain, saw a woman (Arab woman - Spectator) coming with a basket of rubbish and filth upon her head. He asked her: “What are you carrying on your head?” – And she replied: “Rubbish.”
“And to where are you carrying it?”
“To such and such a place.”
“Where do you live?”
“In Bethlehem.”
“Is there no dunghill between Bethlehem and this place?”
“It is a tradition among us that whoever takes a little rubbish to that place performs a meritorious act.”
The curiosity of the officer was aroused and he commanded a great number of men to remove the rubbish from that place…and the holy site was revealed. When the Sultan learned of this, he rejoiced greatly and ordered the place to be swept and sprinkled and the Western Wall washed with rosewater...”

In the second half of the 16th century, Suleiman the Magnificent gave the Jews rights to worship at the Western Wall and had his court architect Sinan build an oratory for them there.

[Ben Yehuda]

Is it possible that Maimonides seeming views on islam are not his true views given that he lived within a muslim world, and any talk against islam would have spelt great trouble for him?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Is it possible that Maimonides seeming views on islam are not his true views given that he lived within a muslim world, and any talk against islam would have spelt great trouble for him?

Why would such a great Torah sage speak untruth? Granted, I do not necessarily agree with all that he says, but wouldn't he mean anything he wrote sincerely?

[Spectator]

Is it possible that Maimonides seeming views on islam are not his true views given that he lived within a muslim world, and any talk against islam would have spelt great trouble for him?

Why would such a great Torah sage speak untruth? Granted, I do not necessarily agree with all that he says, but wouldn't he mean anything he wrote sincerely?

It is absolutely impossible for the greatest Torah Sage to speak untruth. It is obvious that he couldn't speak about bad things that are in great abundance in Islam, but it is absolutely impossible for him to lie to praise the Muslim rulers. It is not the way of our Sages.

Besides, anyone who speaks Hebrew will note that the word "Allah" is very similar to one of the Hebrew names of G-d.

[Zelhar]

Islam defines What is G-d with greater similarity to the Jewish definition. But as for What G-d says Isalm and Judaism differ immensely.

Chaim stated on this week's Ask JTF that it is a key point of Torah Judaism to accept that Muslims do in fact believe in the one true G-d (based on the conclusions of Maimonides), and I believe having heard/read that in principle, a Jew could convert to Islam and not be guilty of sin (depending on how literally he or she meant it, of course). Does this mean that it is in principle possible to be a righteous Muslim?

The Rambam said Jews who pretended to convert to Islam only to save their life are forgiven and should be readmitted to the Jewish community. Some say the Rambam himself, who fled from muslim occupied Spain, had to fake conversion.

Were there any Muslims during this so-called "golden age" who were analogous to Christian Zionists today and genuinely loved and supported Jews?

At some brief period muslim occupied Spain was tollerant to Jews living there with little persecutions. These muslims were semi secular and didn't took too literally the insanities of their religion. But it was a rather short era. By the time of the Rambam moors from Morocco took over and brought an end to tolerance.

[Spectator]

Islam defines What is G-d with greater similarity to the Jewish definition. But as for What G-d says Isalm and Judaism differ immensely.

You are right. One of the differences is shown at your logo.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A "righteous Muslim" is one who refrains from following his religion in its true form.    He would be on the one hand, a guy who believes in one God, and therefore because there is a God refrains from murder, theft, hurting animals, etc...     Basically the 7 noahide laws.   But on top of that, he does not follow islam in its truest form which is jihad for the sake of expanding dar al islam.    Jihad is an underlying principle of the Muslim religion, so the only way a so-called "Muslim" can be righteous is if he doesn't actually follow Islam, by rejecting the principle of jihad (and maybe some other things, Jew-hatred included) even though ostensibly "muslim."     

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Is it possible that Maimonides seeming views on islam are not his true views given that he lived within a muslim world, and any talk against islam would have spelt great trouble for him?

No because he openly called Muhammad a Madman in his letter to Yemen, and he openly spoke of the barbaric attacks that fanatic muslims had committed against Jews by trying to conquer and/or forcing them to convert in various places.   His writings were directed to the Jewish community, and at the time, he sat in a place where it was less hostile to Jews.  (His family had to escape Spain when he was a child, as the fanatics came to convert people by the sword).      He openly stated his true beliefs in his writings.     And included in Rambam's writings were emphatic statements that Muhammad was not only a lunatic but the entire Islamic "religion" was based on his falsehood as he pretended to be a prophet, which the Jews reject. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Why do you think that in the Middle Ages, a pretty substantial school of Islam more or less tolerated Jewry? What was the Koranic/Hadithic argument they used for this?

[muman613]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/islamjudaism/


All About Islam

Could you explain the difference between Islam and Judaism as you did about Christianity? The way you outlined the differences was very clear. It appears to me that Islam tries to be more like Judaism.

___________________________________

Islam, like Christianity, accepts the Jewish Bible and is based largely upon Jewish ideas and traditions. The philosophical underpinnings of Islam, however, are more closely aligned with those of Judaism. Whereas Christianity incorporates the idea of the “trinity,” Islam believes in one all-powerful, infinite God.

Mohammed, the founder of Islam, based many of his beliefs on the practices of local Jewish population in his native Mecca. For example, the Moslem practices of not eating pig, circumcision, daily prayer and fasting during the first month of the year were all culled directly from Judaism.

Since Islam was so similar to Judaism, Mohammed assumed the Jews would immediately accept this new religion. When the Jews did not live up to his expectations, he turned violently against them and many Jews died by the sword. (We are still suffering from this today; may there be peace soon.)

The real difference between the two religions, however, lies in their basis for belief. Judaism is based on the unique historical event of a divine revelation experienced by the entire nation. Whereas Islam is based on the prophetic claims of a single individual who subsequently convinced others to follow his ways.

Talmudic tradition says that while Abraham’s son Isaac became the forefather of the Jewish people, the Islamic line is descended from Abraham’s other son Ishmael.

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity and Islam are part of God’s plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All of this is in preparation for the Messianic age.

[Every Jew AK47]

Can Camels grow wings and fly?  Can you have a righteous muslim?

The Turks were not religous muslims in the time where they accepted their Jewish immigrants.  Even, there was a lot of paganism still in those lands and mixed beliefs.  There was report a province in Eastern Europe or Turkey (not sure exactly), called Kazaria that converted from Islam to Judaism.  Obviously, these are not very religious muslims, that they would toss aside their beliefs for Judaic ones.   However, in the modern world, Muslims around the world are more fanatical and it is now inscribed into their hearts to wipe all Jews off the earth.

There are nice muslims, because they are not really muslims, they are just poor people born into a savage cult that they are not allowed to leave, for fear of rejection and death.  Islam itself is a barbaric, savage cult built on lies, debauchery and barbaric conquest that seeks to exterminate all those who refuse to believe in it.

Any righteous Muslim is not a Muslim.

As far as those Dark Aged, Jew hating Chrsitains, well more of them followed Euroepan paganism rather than Christanity.  Christianity was at one time a Judaic religion until it was adopted by Romans and Greeks and bonded with European traditions and theology.  However, those who seeked to attack the Jews would only do so based on some external teachings that their churches produced versus that actually written in the Tanakh and New Testament of the bibles.   

[muman613]

I fully love all Gentiles but I will not accept that Christianity really 'loves' the Jewish people. I have read the passages in the NT and I am aware of how those passages are used by missionaries and by anti-semites.. I believe we should not argue about who is more antisemitic, the muslims or the christians... We should accept what happened historically and learn to do the will of the Creator, Hashem the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... I hope that readers understand that I am not making a pronouncement that all Christians are evil, nor are they going to hell... I am just saying that in order to make relations better we need to be honest about history...

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/247,2168834/Why-do-Jews-not-accept-Jesus-as-a-god-or-a-messiah.html

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Why do you think that in the Middle Ages, a pretty substantial school of Islam more or less tolerated Jewry? What was the Koranic/Hadithic argument they used for this?

I think it's lapse in religious fervor and appeal of societal/cultural experiences.  There were always places where people were less fervent in their religion at different times and more intent on societal interactions and basic life pleasures.   This happened for a time in spain and certain Muslim places.   Muslims were businessmen, artisans, 'scientists' (whatever constituted a scientist at that time), and if Jews paid a dhimmi tax, hey that fits with the Koran, so why not work together in doing these various economic pursuits, the marketplace, artwork, scholarship etc.   They just didn't understand the jihad as so pressing or didn't relate to that aspect of their religion.  This is bound to happen when a religion spreads so far and so quickly as Islam did, how can the pure ideology remain steadfast in such far reaching places and in such a high percentage when there is no real tradition for it before the rapid conquest of Islam.   People who were previously arabs or other types of people forced to convert to save their lives along with the rest of their society, they go on living. 

And so they will naturally incline toward those easier and more appealing aspects of Islam and naturally not care about others (including the aspect that motivated those who came to conquer them).   Why should they care about dar al islam, they only are muslim so they wouldn't be beheaded in the first place, and their parents never had a tradition they passed to them, and who cares what happens elsewhere in the world, they have a life to live.  World wasn't so global back then.

But messianic belief always comes around now and then, schools can establish a more fundamental stream of religion and a more extreme approach, and then develop this and spread it to those more dedicated to the religion.  The almohad dynasty is probably an example.   And nowadays the madrasses in iran and saudi arabia are so extremely fundamental and approach the pure jihadist ideology of Islam, and this is really what Muslims around the world are indoctrinated with, in schools and by family.   

In my opinion, the way to break it is through intellectual warfare.   Infiltrate their schools, undermine their teachings, support (financially and otherwise) break-off reformist sects that come to alter the real Islam, and certain people will gravitate towards that, just like people gravitate toward fake/new/non-traditional forms of other religions.   The reform movement was completely phony, yet it was and is a grave danger to Jews and posed a huge challenge to orthodoxy.    We need to help drive Muslims "off the derech" of Islam by seeding a reform peace-nik sect that rejects jihad and actively attacks the true Islam in the way that reform went no holds barred to constantly attack Orthodox Judaism and all the while reform claiming itself to be the real thing (dishonestly).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There was report a province in Eastern Europe or Turkey (not sure exactly), called Kazaria that converted from Islam to Judaism. 

They did not convert FROM Islam.   The Khazar kingdom was a gentile place with a pagan like tradition.  There were Jews and Muslims who also came to that place and blended in with the Khazar people and culture (and undoubtedly there were also some Christians as it bordered also the Christian empire on one side).   But the place was NEVER Muslim.   The King of Khazaria and his high ranking officials converted to Judaism and then fought against the Muslim empire and stopped their expansion for a while.   Muslims were a minority there and remained a minority there, until the Rus came in and conquered everyone.

[pennyjangle]

Their allah is a moon god not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[muman613]

Their allah is a moon G-d not the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Did you hear Chaims explanation of this? According to Jewish sages they worship the same G-d as we do... The roots of Islam come from paganism, as does Christianity because they wanted to sell Monotheism to the pagan masses.

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/from-idolatry-to-conversion/other-faiths/?p=2765

As I have stated numerous times I believe that their understanding of the directives of Hashem are completely warped. This is due to the fact that they are decendents of Ishmael, the wild-donkey of a son of Abraham. I believe Islam is diametrically opposite to Jewish belief and that those who follow this religion have set themselves as the enemy of the Jewish people, and thusly are the enemies of the Merciful creator Hashem.

I pray that anyone born into the quagmire of Islam has the wisdom to discover the one true G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob... We learn that Abraham was born into a house of Idolatry and yet he was able to establish a relationship with the Creator of the Universe...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I heard Chaim's explanation and I can see how somebody could see it that way, but because Mohammed was such a filthy liar and impostor, I don't believe that he can be the same G-d. Compare the natures of G-d and Allah (I mean the Islamic Allah, not just Arabic for G-d). Muslims reject the entire Bible and the nature of their Allah is pagan, even if he is a singular deity.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I heard Chaim's explanation and I can see how somebody could see it that way, but because Mohammed was such a filthy liar and impostor, I don't believe that he can be the same G-d. 

Muhammad is not God.   He was a false prophet who professed belief in God.   In a monotheistic God, yes.

Compare the natures of G-d and Allah (I mean the Islamic Allah, not just Arabic for G-d). Muslims reject the entire Bible and the nature of their Allah is pagan, even if he is a singular deity.

In what way?   What do you mean by the nature? 

[The One and Only Mo]

Where exactly do Muslims come from?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muhammad is not G-d.   He was a false prophet who professed belief in G-d.   In a monotheistic G-d, yes.

I meant the G-d that he promoted, sorry for the lack of clarity. By nature I meant character; yes, the Allah of Islam is monotheistic, but he behaves like a pagan deity.

[pennyjangle]

The latest post-Christian theological spectacle comes to us from the Netherlands (of Ayaan Hirsi Ali fame), where the Roman Catholic Bishop of Breda, Tiny Muskens, says he wants Christians to start calling God "Allah" because he believes such a gesture would promote "rapprochement between Christianity and Islam". Appearing on Dutch television, the 71-year-old cleric said:

    "Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him?"

Inquiring minds want to know: If the bishop really thinks the names "God" and "Allah" are interchangeable, why doesn't he ask Muslims to start calling Allah "Hashem", the biblical name for God? But he won't, because he knows they won't.

Indeed, just because Christianity, Judaism and Islam are called "monotheistic" faiths, it does not follow that Christians, Jews and Muslims pray to the same God. So for those pre-postmoderns who believe that words still mean something, a quick survey of archaeology, history and theology-accompanied by a dose of common sense-can answer the question of whether the Allah of Islam is really the God of the Bible.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muhammad is not G-d.   He was a false prophet who professed belief in G-d.   In a monotheistic G-d, yes.

I meant the G-d that he promoted, sorry for the lack of clarity. By nature I meant character; yes, the Allah of Islam is monotheistic, but he behaves like a pagan deity.

I was moreso asking for examples to hear how you back up that claim.   But by saying "character" you have actually confused me more.   I would think you mean more about the God's actions than "traits" so to speak.   But anyway, please explain how you determine that he behaves as "pagan" entity in Islam...

[pennyjangle]

Muslims claim that in pre-Islamic times, "Allah" was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets and apostles. Indeed, the credibility of Islam as a religion stands or falls on its core claim of historical continuity with Judaism and Christianity. No wonder, then, that many Muslims get uppity when the claims of Islam are subjected to the hard science of archaeology.

Because archaeology provides irrefutable evidence that Allah, far from being the biblical God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was actually the pre-Islamic pagan moon-god. Indeed, it is an established archaeological fact that worship of the moon-god was the main religion of the ancient Middle East.

But what about the Arabian Peninsula, where Mohammed (570-632) launched Islam? During the last two centuries, prominent archaeologists have unearthed thousands of inscriptions which prove beyond any doubt that the dominant religion of Arabia during Mohammed's day was the cult of the moon-god.

[muman613]

Muslims claim that in pre-Islamic times, "Allah" was the biblical G-d of the Patriarchs, prophets and apostles. Indeed, the credibility of Islam as a religion stands or falls on its core claim of historical continuity with Judaism and Christianity. No wonder, then, that many Muslims get uppity when the claims of Islam are subjected to the hard science of archaeology.

Because archaeology provides irrefutable evidence that Allah, far from being the biblical G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was actually the pre-Islamic pagan moon-G-d. Indeed, it is an established archaeological fact that worship of the moon-G-d was the main religion of the ancient Middle East.

But what about the Arabian Peninsula, where Mohammed (570-632) launched Islam? During the last two centuries, prominent archaeologists have unearthed thousands of inscriptions which prove beyond any doubt that the dominant religion of Arabia during Mohammed's day was the cult of the moon-G-d.

Can you please provide some links which support your position?