Jewish Holy Leader

[muman613]

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2000/parsha/rhab_kedoshim.html
Rabbi Yaakov Haber

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Perhaps we can suggest an answer based on an approach discussed by R. Menachem Mendel Schneerson, ZT"L, the late Lubavitcher Rebbe. In Tractate Sanhedrin (98a) we learn that the G'eula (Redemption) and Biat HaMashiach (Coming of the Messiah) can take place in one of two ways depending on the deeds of K'lal Yisrael. If lo zachu, we do not truly merit the redemption, then the G'eula and Biat HaMashiach will occur at their predetermined time and will unfold in a natural way. If Klal Yisrael merits, then the redemption will be hastened and will occur supernaturally. Similary, R. Schneerson suggests, if we do not merit, then the Beit haMikdash will be rebuilt by Man as the Rambam indicates. If we do merit, then the Temple will descend from Heaven as Rashi indicates. We can develop this answer further to explain how the Rambam would resolve the difficult G'mara in Rosh Hashana. R. Yochanan b. Zakkai lived at the time of the destruction of the second Temple. The G'mara in Sanhedrin (97a) indicates that the time in history that has been predesignated for Biat Hamashiach is during the last two thousand years of the existence of the current world as we know it, from the years 4000 - 6000 in the Jewish calendar. R. Yochanan b. Zakkai lived before the year 4000. Therefore, his concern that "m'haira yibaneh haMikdash" -- that the Temple would be built speedily -- would clearly have to be based on the merits of Klal Yisrael. This would lead to the supernatural G'eula which would include the Mikdash descending from Heaven. As such there was a real concern that the Mikdash would be built on the first day of Pesach and therefore chadash had to be prohibited for the entire second day.

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[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm sure that not every rabbi holds of the 6,000 year thing.  Because after all, there are many Orthodox rabbis who do not believe the buba maiseh that the world is only 6,000 years old (there is not a single source for that).   So it's only natural that that time is also not the "end of the world"   Or whatever.    That 6,000 years thing can be metaphor or mashul.  It is aggada afterall.    But anyway, hopefully redemption will come even sooner than that date.   If it doesn't come we keep trying, that's all.   Only unreasonable/illogical people will lose hope if it doesn't come by a certain date.

But there is certainly plenty of sources for this in the Talmud.

Please do not make vague statements.

I said that there are no sources that the world is 6000 odd years old (5770 plus 6 days).  Because there is no source for that.   Period.   Every opinion is that 5770 is the years from the creation of MAN, not the world.

As to the talmud, I already addressed that.  The 6000 years world, 2000 years this, 2000 years, and 2000 years moschiach, etc - It's an agada.   It does not mean someone has to say the world is literally 5770 years old because of that, and literally no one does.   Until maybe the current generation or a few decades ago, NO ONE said that.  End of story.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Rambam also cautions against making predictions about when moschiach will come.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The Rambam also cautions against making predictions about when moschiach will come.

This reminds me of the Christian debate as to when the "second coming" of Christ will be. People are always claiming to "know" when that will be when the NT is in fact deliberately vague about it; nobody knows. In my opinion, these kinds of end-times speculations are a sort of opiate that distracts people from what they need to do in the here and now. I see these kinds of discussions as being unproductive and rather meaningless.

How old do you think the world is, and what Torahic/oral Torahic/Talmudic/rabbinical basis do you use for this?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Rambam also cautions against making predictions about when moschiach will come.

This reminds me of the Christian debate as to when the "second coming" of Christ will be. People are always claiming to "know" when that will be when the NT is in fact deliberately vague about it; nobody knows. In my opinion, these kinds of end-times speculations are a sort of opiate that distracts people from what they need to do in the here and now. I see these kinds of discussions as being unproductive and rather meaningless.

How old do you think the world is, and what Torahic/oral Torahic/Talmudic/rabbinical basis do you use for this?

The world is billions of years old, and science proves that.   There is no reason for anyone to think that contradicts Judaism.   There doesn't need to be a source for that.   There's nothing against it.   The sages weren't scientists investigating the age of the universe.   That's what people do today.   And I have no reason to say they are all liars or all wrong.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The world is billions of years old, and science proves that.   There is no reason for anyone to think that contradicts Judaism.   There doesn't need to be a source for that.   There's nothing against it.   The sages weren't scientists investigating the age of the universe.   That's what people do today.   And I have no reason to say they are all liars or all wrong.

"Proves" it? In the past century estimates of the world's age have changed many times, and I am sure they will some more.

[muman613]

I dont know how this became a discussion about the age of the world... The question was concerning the coming of Moshiach and there are several sources that this will be before the year 6000... This is the year 6000 from the creation of man.... As we all know... Why do we need to change the topic?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I dont know how this became a discussion about the age of the world... The question was concerning the coming of Moshiach and there are several sources that this will be before the year 6000... This is the year 6000 from the creation of man.... As we all know... Why do we need to change the topic?

In a way they are interrelated subjects.  An aggadic statement that says 2000 years darkness, 2000 year Torah and 2000 years of days leading up to Moshiach, etc, is not speaking literally.  It can't be.   Why?  Because of the age of the universe issue.  So that leads us to seek a deeper understanding of it.   In any event, the full redemption should happen much sooner than the year 6000, may it happen soon in our days.    All I am saying is that if in the Jewish calendar year 6000, if there isn't yet a moshiach that is no cause for alarm.  We will just keep trying.    I do believe that someone who will "jump ship" because of that just lacks an understanding of what the moshiach (and full redemption for that matter) really is, and they are not sensible to behave in such a way.

[Dr. Dan]

Listen. Let's be reasonable here. The rabbis were rabbis and not prophets. But that's niether here nor there.

If the moshiach didn't come at a certain predicted time it would still be business as usual making the world a better place.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Listen. Let's be reasonable here. The rabbis were rabbis and not prophets. But that's niether here nor there.

If the moshiach didn't come at a certain predicted time it would still be business as usual making the world a better place.

Yes, we have even had rabbis predict it before at certain dates and it didn't happen.   Predictions are just predictions, not prophecy, you're right.  And the talmudic sages were post-prophetic era.  They determined things through logic and analysis of Torah text, rather than prophecy and intuition.