MK Meir Porush typifies the shallow Haredi ideology

[wonga66]

MK Meir Porush here just goes to typify the twisted thinking, mirky hashkofos, cowardliness and spiritual malaise of the Haredim!http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/134714



Rav Kahane always said that "The Haredim are IRRELEVANT"! And he was so right!

Despite the burgeoning Haredi numbers, they are achieving NOTHING, except becoming more and more obese!

Whilst Rav Kahane, even though he's been in his keiver almost 20 years, is becoming more and more RELEVANT!

Never forget that without UTJ (and Shas), Oslo and the Hitnatkut would never have happened.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.  These parties exist to be bribed, and they can be bribed just as effectively by far leftist-led governments, phony pseudo rightwing govt's like Bibi's, and if a Kahanist govt was in power they'd take bribes from there too.   They exist to be bribed and are otherwise irrelevant except that they once in a while say they like an idea or don't like an idea (but not to the extent that they'll act on the opinion, they just hint at it sometimes).   But they have no real policies except regarding religious administration 'status quo' issues.  Otherwise they leave policy and govt planning in the hands of the secular establishment, and defer to their authority entirely.   In other words, a MASSIVE chillul Hashem.   

[muman613]

It is sick that you find a need to speak lashon hara against these Jews.... That is another strike against wonga in my book...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is sick that you find a need to speak lashon hara against these Jews.... That is another strike against wonga in my book...

Which Jews do you mean?  I think he meant that against UTJ and Shas as representatives of haredi "ideology."   I don't think he meant to bash all haredim.   Then again, it could be based on how he worded it.   

I just want it to be clear that criticizing these corrupt money-driven, gutless parties and those running them is Not lashon hara (as far as I know).

[muman613]

I hope that he meant that those involved with this party may be corrupt and not all those Jews who identify as Haredim.

I believe that the problem we are witnessing is due to inherent problems with the political system in Israel. No party gets a clear mandate and therefore parties have to negotiate, often to the detriment of the Jewish people of Israel... The state of Israel must have one of the most corrupt systems ever imagined by mankind. I think a bi-cameral system similar to America would be less corrupt because power is concentrated into these parties. I believe that when there are many small parties with little power the problems related to bribes and capitulation to giving away Jewish land occurs.

[wonga66]

For all his plus points, Menachem Porush http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1151756.html
father of Meir Porush, supported Oslo and "Land for Peace" and was very very far from Kahane & Kahanism.



"The Haredim are irrelevant!" (R.Meir Kahane)!

[Spectator]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.  These parties exist to be bribed, and they can be bribed just as effectively by far leftist-led governments, phony pseudo rightwing govt's like Bibi's, and if a Kahanist govt was in power they'd take bribes from there too.   They exist to be bribed and are otherwise irrelevant except that they once in a while say they like an idea or don't like an idea (but not to the extent that they'll act on the opinion, they just hint at it sometimes).   But they have no real policies except regarding religious administration 'status quo' issues.  Otherwise they leave policy and govt planning in the hands of the secular establishment, and defer to their authority entirely.    In other words, a MASSIVE chillul Hashem.   

This could have been partly true 20 or 30 years ago (partly because you cannot have any real influence on core issues with 5 seats out of 120). Anyways, things have changed since then.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135611

The leadership of the WZO approved the inclusion of Shas on Monday in a majority vote, after a first-ever request by a hareidi-religious party to join the Zionist organization.

“Shas is the new NRP,” Yigal Bibi told Arutz-7 on Tuesday. “Shas is now doing what the NRP once did, fighting for both the Land of Israel and the Torah of Israel. Minister Yaakov Margi is responsible for Religious Affairs, Interior Minister Eli Yishai [looks out] for the country’s Jewish character, and Housing Minister Ariel Attias is in charge of building the Land. There is therefore no reason why a party like Shas should not be a part of the body that is responsible for settlement and the Jewish National Fund.”

[Spectator]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.   

In your opinion, what makes Haredim relevant? Relevant for what?

[muman613]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.   

In your opinion, what makes Haredim relevant? Relevant for what?

My question is how can any religious Jew consider any Jew irrelevant? That is the real mystery...

[Spectator]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.   

In your opinion, what makes Haredim relevant? Relevant for what?

My question is how can any religious Jew consider any Jew irrelevant? That is the real mystery...

I think nobody here (perhaps except for wonga) really believes that Haredim are irrelevant as Jews. But I think Haredim are a very positive political power in Israel today, at least by comparison to the majority of other parties.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.  These parties exist to be bribed, and they can be bribed just as effectively by far leftist-led governments, phony pseudo rightwing govt's like Bibi's, and if a Kahanist govt was in power they'd take bribes from there too.   They exist to be bribed and are otherwise irrelevant except that they once in a while say they like an idea or don't like an idea (but not to the extent that they'll act on the opinion, they just hint at it sometimes).   But they have no real policies except regarding religious administration 'status quo' issues.  Otherwise they leave policy and govt planning in the hands of the secular establishment, and defer to their authority entirely.    In other words, a MASSIVE chillul Hashem.   

This could have been partly true 20 or 30 years ago (partly because you cannot have any real influence on core issues with 5 seats out of 120). Anyways, things have changed since then.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135611

The leadership of the WZO approved the inclusion of Shas on Monday in a majority vote, after a first-ever request by a hareidi-religious party to join the Zionist organization.

“Shas is the new NRP,” Yigal Bibi told Arutz-7 on Tuesday. “Shas is now doing what the NRP once did, fighting for both the Land of Israel and the Torah of Israel. Minister Yaakov Margi is responsible for Religious Affairs, Interior Minister Eli Yishai [looks out] for the country’s Jewish character, and Housing Minister Ariel Attias is in charge of building the Land. There is therefore no reason why a party like Shas should not be a part of the body that is responsible for settlement and the Jewish National Fund.”

Although Shas has embraced zionism and become a bit more honest in their outlook (without fear of the rants against them by their ashkenazi anti-zionist brethren), I still do not see their party as having a goal or vision other than support for yeshivot and sephardi community.  I have yet to see any indication that they have a national vision.  In fact, Eli Yishai joined bibi's "cabinet" (more bribery and control of the haredim by the establishment), and he upheld the decision to put a freeze on construction in yesha.   Shas speaks out of both sides of its mouth.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Haredim have relevance, it's their politics/political parties that don't.   

In your opinion, what makes Haredim relevant? Relevant for what?

He called them irrelevant.   I don't consider people irrelevant.   Especially people doing mitzvoth.   They are not irrelevant.   Presumably he meant to national goals.   Well, I do not think they are irrelevant to national goals even if they don't have much of a nationalistic consciousness.   Because 1. that sentiment is developing despite the messages from the top, and 2.  even without a strong national consciousness, they uphold Jewish character of the state in some ways.   

What I am saying is that their political parties are irrelevant shams.   Which they are.

[wonga66]

That haredim turn up in droves & riot because a mall may be being built over some dubious skeletons, whilst being unperturbed and not turning up at all to really riot, because 10,000 living knitted-kipot Jews are being deported, shows just how much R.Kahane was correct when he said how irrelevant the haredim truly are.



For not just ignoring Kahanism (ie True Torah), but even being opposed to it, most Haredim, despite all their limudim and Tefillin and Kashrus and Tzitzis and peyos down to their knees, and niddah and shabbos candles, and pru urevu etc etc etc, will not be zocheh to witness the Geulah.

And by "most", I mean c80%!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As mystical as your approach usually is, wonga, I'm sure you find great difficulty in supporting your view here from any sources you hold of.  It is the kabbalistic point of view that stresses the mystical tikkunim of these acts you mention by the haredim (payos down to feet, pre revu etc), whereby their absence from meaningful (in the national sense) action either for themselves, on behalf of other Jews, or on behalf of the nation, is all not very relevant and not damaging since they are doing the mystical tikkunim just by learning or just by keeping Shabbat etc etc and God will do the rest.   That is the point of view I do not accept.  Whereas, YOU are firmly rooted in such mystical speculation, so I find it surprising your view in this matter.   Nonetheless, I see your point that you are making and find it sensible...

[New Yorker]

..,will not be zocheh to witness the Geulah.

And by "most", I mean c80%!

What does zocheh mean? I have no idea what that means, not being sarcastic, that is literally another language to me, tried the term in google and it was no help. Found Geulah.  : - )

[Spectator]

..,will not be zocheh to witness the Geulah.

And by "most", I mean c80%!

What does zocheh mean? I have no idea what that means, not being sarcastic, that is literally another language to me, tried the term in google and it was no help. Found Geulah.  : - )

"zocheh" is a Hebrew for "to merit" or "to deserve", present tense, masculine gender. It is not a special term.

wonga, using Hebrew words in English text does not make your words more convincing 

[Spectator]

I have yet to see any indication that they have a national vision.  In fact, Eli Yishai joined bibi's "cabinet" (more bribery and control of the haredim by the establishment), and he upheld the decision to put a freeze on construction in yesha.   Shas speaks out of both sides of its mouth.   

If Shas (11 seats) had left the government because of the freeze, it would not sabotage it. Bibi would readily replace them with Kadima (28 seats) who would encourage (and effectively pressure) him to make even more outrageous concessions to Arabs.

Presently, Bibi is avoiding to make more steps towards "peace", and even has to make some small nationalistic moves like including Machpela cave and Rachel's tomb into the list of national heritage sites, thus raising Israeli claim on these Jewish holy places. Of course, it is not only Shas' merit but they surely had their hand on this. Beisdes, Shas rules out any talks on Jerusalem.

To achieve better results is more important than to look righteous.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have yet to see any indication that they have a national vision.  In fact, Eli Yishai joined bibi's "cabinet" (more bribery and control of the haredim by the establishment), and he upheld the decision to put a freeze on construction in yesha.   Shas speaks out of both sides of its mouth.   

If Shas (11 seats) had left the government because of the freeze, it would not sabotage it. Bibi would readily replace them with Kadima (28 seats) who would encourage (and effectively pressure) him to make even more outrageous concessions to Arabs.   

This is called making excuses.   If the issue was over chillul Shabbat, Shas would leave the govt anyway, consequences or not (or at least oppose the move with all their might if not actually leaving the govt).  If it was over welfare stipends, Shas would use their political clout.    What I am saying is that what political clout Shas (and other haredi parties even more so) DOES have, it uses for sectarian (often selfish) means and has no national vision and does not use its clout to help other Jews.   That is the fact.