Ask JTF is ready, baruch Hashem (12/07)

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                           בס"ד

It's interesting how your post contradict the thelogy I had when I was a Christian and your theology. You understand that believing you is the same as believing Mas'ab Yousouf?

I don't know what doctrines you were taught to believe and I don't think that's a very good topic for us to get into if we're going to avoid the whole topic of missionizing anyway.

I can tell you that I never met a Christian who didn't like Jews until I was an adult and I was shocked to know there even were such people who still called themselves Christian.

Maybe that was ignorant of me but to be honest I had never thought that anything like that was possible. The first time a Jewish person told me that there were Christian anti-Semites I got angry with him for saying that and we got into an argument about it. I had never met a Christian that didn't like Jews so the idea of a Christian anti-Semite was like telling me there was a green stop sign or a red go light.

Now of course I realize how serious that topic is and how evil some people are and were that still took the label of Christians. I understand why you are wary and I actually think you SHOULD be careful and not automatically trust people. There are a lot of evil people in the world who claim all kinds of religions.

Maybe I was insulated from all that because I grew up in Texas and most Christians that I know of here like Israel and Jews.

Also, one more question: if the Arabs sorrounding Israel were Christians, and all lands to need to free were lands currently controlled by Christians, would you support us liberating it?

There are Arab so-called Christians now and most of them are terrible people who I don't really think follow Christian morals. I think as long as they are hateful anti-Semites they should be treated just like the Muslims.

No, we're not gonna avoid anything. I can tell you that I've never met a truly Jew-loving Christians except for some (but there were and are Jew-loving Muslims, so what?). Also I can't understand how can a person who worships a traitor for the Jewish people is able to love us. Same thing for the Christian thelogy that we'll go to hell if we won't convert.

I don't think that the Southern American love Israel more the Leftie/Nazi already do. I don't think the definition of the support for the Jewish people is understood in this forum.

You didn't answer me.


Christian "morals" is a very un-understable phrase. Also I'm talking hypothetically, if these Arabs were what you consider (or seem to consider) Christians, would you support us liberaing our land?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                       בס"ד

                                                               
And how do you respect Chaim if you're bashing me? How do you respect Chaim if you think he'll go to hell for being part of your religion?
I don't care about co-operation and Chaim knows my opinion about this. Only reason I joined the English forum is because I care about the Jews staying in the Galut.
It's ok Robert, I don't really consider you human so it's ok. Yup, I'm a "fancy Jew" (hello Adolf), glad you understood that I have respect for myself and not hide between so-called alliance with interestants like you.

I'm bashing you? Explain, I criticized your behaviour and backed it up with reasoning for everyone to understand and you have yet to come up with a single counter argument. It was you who started bashing me since you obviously was all out of reasoning. read your own posts again; I'm sure you'll understand.

How do I think Chaim will go to hell? Please explain...

It's ok ron, I know you're too vain to understand a single point I make.

I respect Chaim for what he is and what he does. You don't know what respect is.

No you didn't only "criticize", "fancy Jew who hides behind scriptures" is no argument but rather a foolish childish to talk, reminds me of "other" people from your country.

I don't really give a damn on what you say so I don't really invest in my posts to you, but I could invest, let's see, do you actually think I can co-operate with Christians and even love them just cause they want to use me (I'm talking as a Jew) in the common fight against Islam? Do you really think I don't know what Christians? Do you really think Jews are that dumb to believe what Christians really think of them and what Christianity really is? I know from experience what Christians and Christianity are.

I think you should re-read what I said cause you started talking about me, I asked if it you're talking about me, you said you did, I answered I need to know if you're Jewish cause I'd answer differently to my brothers than to you (I mean come on why do I need to convince something like you to understand me lmao?), you got all fancy European butt blaming me for "prejudice" (of whom?) and attacking me, and it continued like that.

Are you Christian?

It's ok Rob, the fact that you swinely think you're so important and so right and so full of yourself (if I was so full of myself I wouldn't apologize in front of people in the Honorable Winged Member section), and repeat the same garbage time after time, makes you smart/fancy/whatever, I won't bother you.

Slogans, slogans..

[Rubystars]

No, we're not gonna avoid anything. I can tell you that I've never met a truly Jew-loving Christians except for some (but there were and are Jew-loving Muslims, so what?).

Maybe that's a big part of the problem. We have completely different experiences. If you could meet some of the people over here you might be surprised at how we feel. I think some of them would be really hurt that you seem to resent them so much for it. Honestly what do you want us to do? Do you want us to quit liking Israel and hate the Jews like the rest of the world does? I don't see how that would help you or us for Christians in America to hate God's people.

Also I can't understand how can a person who worships a traitor for the Jewish people is able to love us. Same thing for the Christian thelogy that we'll go to hell if we won't convert.

I am against missionizing because of the horrible history of anti-Semitic people who forced Jews to convert and persecuted them and murdered innocent Jews for it. This has left deep scars that still hurt Jewish people today and will not be forgotten. Of course I don't see Jesus the same way you do, but that's a given. I do know that without the Jewish people I would have absolutely zero basis for my own religion even if you consider the branch-off to be blasphemous.

I don't think that the Southern American love Israel more the Leftie/Nazi already do. I don't think the definition of the support for the Jewish people is understood in this forum.

You didn't answer me.


Christian "morals" is a very un-understable phrase. Also I'm talking hypothetically, if these Arabs were what you consider (or seem to consider) Christians, would you support us liberaing our land?

I don't know how many Christian Americans you've met or spoken to. From your assumptions about them I'd say that it can't be very many.

If the Arabs you talk about were truly following what I consider to be authentic Christianity, then they would believe the parts of the Bible which indicate that the land belongs to the Jews from the Nile to the Euphrates and would have to honor that to be true to their religion. Therefore there wouldn't be a need to fight as they would be respectful of the fact that it was Jewish land.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

That Ovadia was last weeks Haftorah portion, wasn't it?

You see my attending Shabbat Torah services allows me to learn the entire Tanach...

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/TorahReading_cdo/AID/15554/section/haftorah

15. For the day of the Lord over all the nations is close; as you have done shall be done to you; your recompense shall be returned upon your head.
16. For, as you drank on My Holy Mount, shall all the nations drink constantly, and they shall drink and be stunned, and they shall be as though they were not.
17. And on Mount Zion there shall be a remnant, and it shall be holy, and the house of Jacob shall inherit those who inherited them.
18. And the house of Jacob shall be fire and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau shall become stubble, and they shall ignite them and consume them, and the house of Esau shall have no survivors, for the Lord has spoken.
19. And [the inhabitants of] the southland shall inherit the mountain of Esau, and [the inhabitants of] the plain, the Philistines, and they shall inherit the field of Ephraim and the field of Samaria, and Benjamin [with the inhabitants of] Gilead.
20. And this exiled host of the children of Israel who are [with] the Canaanites as far as Zarephath and the exile of Jerusalem which is in Sepharad shall inherit the cities of the southland.
21. And saviors shall ascend Mt. Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the Lord shall have the kingdom.

You don't get my point do you?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

No, we're not gonna avoid anything. I can tell you that I've never met a truly Jew-loving Christians except for some (but there were and are Jew-loving Muslims, so what?).

Maybe that's a big part of the problem. We have completely different experiences. If you could meet some of the people over here you might be surprised at how we feel. I think some of them would be really hurt that you seem to resent them so much for it. Honestly what do you want us to do? Do you want us to quit liking Israel and hate the Jews like the rest of the world does? I don't see how that would help you or us for Christians in America to hate G-d's people.

Also I can't understand how can a person who worships a traitor for the Jewish people is able to love us. Same thing for the Christian thelogy that we'll go to hell if we won't convert.

I am against missionizing because of the horrible history of anti-Semitic people who forced Jews to convert and persecuted them and murdered innocent Jews for it. This has left deep scars that still hurt Jewish people today and will not be forgotten. Of course I don't see Jesus the same way you do, but that's a given. I do know that without the Jewish people I would have absolutely zero basis for my own religion even if you consider the branch-off to be blasphemous.

I don't think that the Southern American love Israel more the Leftie/Nazi already do. I don't think the definition of the support for the Jewish people is understood in this forum.

You didn't answer me.


Christian "morals" is a very un-understable phrase. Also I'm talking hypothetically, if these Arabs were what you consider (or seem to consider) Christians, would you support us liberaing our land?

I don't know how many Christian Americans you've met or spoken to. From your assumptions about them I'd say that it can't be very many.

If the Arabs you talk about were truly following what I consider to be authentic Christianity, then they would believe the parts of the Bible which indicate that the land belongs to the Jews from the Nile to the Euphrates and would have to honor that to be true to their religion. Therefore there wouldn't be a need to fight as they would be respectful of the fact that it was Jewish land.

I'd answer you later, gonna catch some sleep.

[Rubystars]

Good night Ron.

[The One and Only Mo]

OK we get it Christians are bad. Unless Chaim changes his rules, they are staying and you will have to live with it. In a perfect world, only Jews would be together and unified. JTF isn't perfect, but the Christians on this forum are here whether we like it or not. If you don't like it, why don't you leave? You think you're going to change it by telling them how harmful they are? You're dancing around the subject. You don't want Christians here. They are all evil. We get it. But there's nothing you can do because Chaim loves them and he owns JTF.

[muman613]

That Ovadia was last weeks Haftorah portion, wasn't it?

You see my attending Shabbat Torah services allows me to learn the entire Tanach...

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/TorahReading_cdo/AID/15554/section/haftorah

15. For the day of the Lord over all the nations is close; as you have done shall be done to you; your recompense shall be returned upon your head.
16. For, as you drank on My Holy Mount, shall all the nations drink constantly, and they shall drink and be stunned, and they shall be as though they were not.
17. And on Mount Zion there shall be a remnant, and it shall be holy, and the house of Jacob shall inherit those who inherited them.
18. And the house of Jacob shall be fire and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau shall become stubble, and they shall ignite them and consume them, and the house of Esau shall have no survivors, for the Lord has spoken.
19. And [the inhabitants of] the southland shall inherit the mountain of Esau, and [the inhabitants of] the plain, the Philistines, and they shall inherit the field of Ephraim and the field of Samaria, and Benjamin [with the inhabitants of] Gilead.
20. And this exiled host of the children of Israel who are [with] the Canaanites as far as Zarephath and the exile of Jerusalem which is in Sepharad shall inherit the cities of the southland.
21. And saviors shall ascend Mt. Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the Lord shall have the kingdom.

You don't get my point do you?

Certainly I get your point. But it is also known that we don't know who is really Esau now, and who is Amalek because peoples have moved around. As I said, there are prophecies which involve the Lost Tribes which may have been absorbed by the Gentile nations. As the Ovadiah says, Esau will be destroyed but only those who follow their patriarchs evil ways. Look at the Chumash story in Shemos about how Pharaohs very own daughter, Batya, was a righteous person and saved Moshe. There is the story of Yisro who converted to follow the One G-d of Israel even though he was a Kohen Gadol of Avodah Zarah. There are so many stories about non-Jews who gave up their ways, such as Ruth, to become a Jew.

I hope you have some more understanding of our relationship with the nations. Hashem will judge the wicked and will seperate the good from the evil. Our job is to bring his presence into the world, I hope that you can do this too.

[Spiraling Leopard]

                 
No you didn't only "criticize", "fancy Jew who hides behind scriptures" is no argument but rather a foolish childish to talk, reminds me of "other" people from your country.

I did indeed only criticize you backed with arguments. And, as shown again, you can't refute them using my words.
When I call you trying to be a fancy Jew I don't talk about Jews, I talk about you. And since you try to use scriptures instead of logic, my statement is valid.

I don't really give a damn on what you say so I don't really invest in my posts to you, but I could invest, let's see, do you actually think I can co-operate with Christians and even love them just cause they want to use me (I'm talking as a Jew) in the common fight against Islam?

All you do is dwell in selfpity about how all non-Jews hate Jews and only want to use them.
You're so full of yourself you don't see anything else.

Do you really think I don't know what Christians? Do you really think Jews are that dumb to believe what Christians really think of them and what Christianity really is? I know from experience what Christians and Christianity are.

Right... You loose every credibility with statements like this.

I think you should re-read what I said cause you started talking about me, I asked if it you're talking about me, you said you did, I answered I need to know if you're Jewish cause I'd answer differently to my brothers than to you (I mean come on why do I need to convince something like you to understand me lmao?), you got all fancy European butt blaming me for "prejudice" (of whom?) and attacking me, and it continued like that.

You can't argue against me with plain reasoning.

Are you Christian?

It's ok Rob, the fact that you swinely think you're so important and so right and so full of yourself (if I was so full of myself I wouldn't apologize in front of people in the Honorable Winged Member section), and repeat the same garbage time after time, makes you smart/fancy/whatever, I won't bother you.

You can't refute my arguments and so I think I'm important?
You apologized? Wow, that's not a miracle because you should, eventhough you do not even understand why.
You deny the rules of JTF. Does this even come through to you?

Slogans, slogans..

Arguments, arguments...

[FreedomFighter08]

Ron is absolutely correct. I have no respect for Evangelic Christians. They basically fund Israeli causes because they believe that fighting amongst Israelis and Arabs bring us closer to the end of days. Jews are basically their puppets. Let us not forget that the Christian religion says to "turn the other cheek" which means that Christians aren't allowed to take revenge or fight but they should instead try to reason with the Muslims.

Evangelic Christianity says:

People who don't believe in Jesus will go to hell.
3 beings are 1 G-d.
That you must turn the other cheek.

These are all against my beliefs.

Evangelic Christians also are basically like Buzz Killington in Family Guy. Go search up Buzz Killington Family Guy on YT and click on a video.

[Christian Zionist]

Even Christians can go to hell.  Just because some one is a Christian or claims to be Christian, it does not mean he/she would go to heaven.



Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

[Rubystars]

Freedom Fighter, you're being silly. Do you think we're all like Ned Flanders too? 

[Shiptar]

Even Christians can go to hell.  Just because some one is a Christian or claims to be Christian, it does not mean he/she would go to heaven.



Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"even Christians can go to hell".

Thats an understatement. Alot, if not most, who call themselves Christian will go to hell because they dont live a Christian life. You dont have to look too far, just look around this forum, Christians saying kill these ppl or kill those ppl, pro death-penalty, etc. Going against everything what Jesus taught. He said to love your neighbor and enemy, not chop his head off.

[~Hanna~]

yes, we realize that....

But, if you remember correctly, the book of Ecclesiastes also talks about there is a time to fight, a time for no war, a time for tears, etc.....I would have killed Hitler, if given a chance...though...

King David was a man after Gd's own heart, at times, he had to be a man of war. This then brought the sword upon his house...the Torah is full of paradox's sometimes. I think G-d does this on purpose, so we will all dig deeper into His word, to find the truth.

Even Christians can go to hell.  Just because some one is a Christian or claims to be Christian, it does not mean he/she would go to heaven.



Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"even Christians can go to hell".

That's an understatement. Alot, if not most, who call themselves Christian will go to hell because they don't live a Christian life. You don't have to look too far, just look around this forum, Christians saying kill these ppl or kill those ppl, pro death-penalty, etc. Going against everything what Jesus taught. He said to love your neighbor and enemy, not chop his head off.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

the problem is the way Christians conducted themself ever since its formation, the way Jews were treated. the way the Jewish scriptures were disrespected. That is something many Jews would not forget for generations to come.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

and i want that pomegranate Chaim is having

[The One and Only Mo]

and i want that pomegranate Chaim is having

pomegranate juice.

[~Hanna~]

yes.....

I still, humbly apologize to each and every one of you, on behalf of all the ignorant Christians over the centuries...and ask forgiveness, please, for the horrible things that have happened.

In every generation, we have all had relatives who have hurt each other here...we need to find a way to look forward and move on...

If we keep looking backward, we will never get anywhere...

 

the problem is the way Christians conducted themself ever since its formation, the way Jews were treated. the way the Jewish scriptures were disrespected. That is something many Jews would not forget for generations to come.

[The One and Only Mo]

yes.....

I still, humbly apologize to each and every one of you, on behalf of all the ignorant Christians over the centuries...and ask forgiveness, please, for the horrible things that have happened.

In every generation, we have all had relatives who have hurt each other here...we need to find a way to look forward and move on...

If we keep looking backward, we will never get anywhere...

 

the problem is the way Christians conducted themself ever since its formation, the way Jews were treated. the way the Jewish scriptures were disrespected. That is something many Jews would not forget for generations to come.

Where are my reparations? Egypt's also responsible. 

[~Hanna~]

lol....

I think just about every group of people has been persecuted by another group of people.....


There were also Christians, that have been persecuted by Jews....how irionic..


But let us not focus on all of that...I love you all here.

yes.....

I still, humbly apologize to each and every one of you, on behalf of all the ignorant Christians over the centuries...and ask forgiveness, please, for the horrible things that have happened.

In every generation, we have all had relatives who have hurt each other here...we need to find a way to look forward and move on...

If we keep looking backward, we will never get anywhere...

 

the problem is the way Christians conducted themself ever since its formation, the way Jews were treated. the way the Jewish scriptures were disrespected. That is something many Jews would not forget for generations to come.

Where are my reparations? Egypt's also responsible. 

[TruthSpreader]

and i want that pomegranate Chaim is having

I had pomegranate when I was in China.

[ProJewGreekChristian]

Even Christians can go to hell.  Just because some one is a Christian or claims to be Christian, it does not mean he/she would go to heaven.



Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"even Christians can go to hell".

Thats an understatement. Alot, if not most, who call themselves Christian will go to hell because they dont live a Christian life. You dont have to look too far, just look around this forum, Christians saying kill these ppl or kill those ppl, pro death-penalty, etc. Going against everything what Jesus taught. He said to love your neighbor and enemy, not chop his head off.

Both of you are terribly wrong. First, Christzionist's quote is used by Catholics against the Protestant teaching of by faith and faith alone. Obviously there are more quotes to be placed against the teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox Church (which I was baptized in) than any Protestant denomination. Let's be honest, not biased. I am Orthodox and since I've read the Gospels feel disgusted by the distortens of the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

SHIPTAR you obviously do not know any of the teachings of Christ Jesus:

"Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother; and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mark 7:8-11

AND what about the "radical" statement by Jesus in Mark 9:42 advising Christians it would be best to drown weights fixed at the neck individuals who would act in such a way that would cause young Christians to sin. This would include drug users etc.

Mark 9:42 -- "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."

ChristianZionist:
 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
That can mean so many things. One thing that's for sure is that it does not mean confessing your sins to clergy is required for salvation or purchasing indulgences is required for salvation or believing somehow Jesus created some sort of papal office is required for salvation. Just because someone calls out to JEsus when sick for example does not mean they are a believer and took the effort to believe and try to do as Jesus did (maybe failed maybe not). True belief and a desire to carry oneself as Christ alone can save your sole; clergy has no say in one's salvation.

[WestCoastJTF]

This whole Christian vs. Jews topic has really gotten out of hand.

I've been involved with JTF longer than most of the people having the argument...indeed, probably longer than most of you put together.  Longer than this forum existed.  Go look at the archives - since 2000.

The following are undeniable:

• There have been many Christians who've been involved with JTF and promoted its message.  Many.
• A substantial part of the financial support for JTF has come from Christians.  In fact, I believe Chaim at different times has said the majority of its support.
• Chaim has given countless examples of Christian support.  One that comes immediately to mind was Senator Helms' intervention when he wasn't receiving kosher food in prison.
• Christians have been guests and co-hosts on JTF shows when they were on TV.
• Chaim and other senior JTF people have said Christians are welcome.

With all the problems that Israel and America face, arguing about how big the JTF tent should be is a waste of time and energy.  Many of these Christians do work for JTF, give money to JTF, and pray that JTF succeeds.  Suggesting that they be turned away is insanity. 

I tell you what...as soon as we have a Kahanist government in power in Israel, we can come back to this discussion.  Until then, we have bigger problems than arguing about Christians vs. Jews.  Indeed, if someone wanted to undermine JTF, they could probably find no better way than to have us turn our focus inward rather than on expansion. 

What saddens me is that instead of...

• promoting JTF on YouTube
• making videos for YouTube
• posting JTF's message on other boards
• raising money for JTF

...people are here debating about who should and shouldn't be in JTF.

I give money to JTF.  I run a web site for JTF.  I post JTF on other boards.  I flag bad videos and promote good ones.  Unless you are also doing these things, get to work! 

Ten minutes spent promoting JTF is better than 1,000 minutes discussing whether Christians should be JTF members.

[~Hanna~]

 

Well said...


 

[eb22]

WestCoastJTF,    you have made a SUBSTANTIAL difference in helping JTF grow because of the JTF Archive site that you put together.     

Thank You!