When was the world created?

[FreedomFighter08]

What is the opinion of people here on when the world was created? What about Creationist theory that the world was created in 6 days? What do you guys think?

[New Yorker]

5 billion years ago, right after the sun, the sun, earth and solar system got jump started by a nearby supernova that sent material over to our neighborhood in space. The carbon that makes the basic building blocks of our bodies, and the calcium that makes our bones, and the iron in our blood, was created in the core of that star that went supernova. Pretty mind bending huh.

[FreedomFighter08]

I think that the world was created billions of years ago but that there has to be some type of powerful force like G-d that started it.

Are you familiar with the Domino Theory. I believe that G-d pushed that domino and the rest followed with evolution and such.

[briann]

I think this needs to be made as a poll.  I DONT think its one of those things that can be debated, as people generally have strong views on the matter.

[muman613]

We have discussed the age of the universe numerous times....

I believe that Hashem created man 6000 years ago... But that 6000 years cannot be fully understood as 6000 years as we know them... Before the sun and the planets were created there was no way to measure what one earth day was...

[Dr. Dan]

technically...if it were measurable 365 days to equal a year, then some scientists can assume it took billions upon billions of years...but really, nobody really knows so....

and muman is right, you can't measure time without an earth spinning and revolving around a sun, so really, what is a year and how can one really measure it.

[pennyjangle]

I lean toward the 6000 year theory but the important part is that G-d made everything and the universe didn't just appear out of nothing on its own.

I totally agree.

[Rubystars]

I lean toward the 6000 year theory but the important part is that G-d made everything and the universe didn't just appear out of nothing on its own.

You know I don't agree with young earth creationism but I agree with you that God created everything one way or another and that's what's important.

[The One and Only Mo]

Whatever the Torah says is what I believe 

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                           בס"ד

We have discussed the age of the universe numerous times....

I believe that Hashem created man 6000 years ago... But that 6000 years cannot be fully understood as 6000 years as we know them... Before the sun and the planets were created there was no way to measure what one earth day was...

I totally agree with you Muman.
Now I need to add that the scientific age of the world is not exact, these are only results of a radiocarbon dating, our Chazal have said that the world was created "בקומתו ובצביונו" or in other words it was created complete and ready.
The process that according to the scientists took millions of years was done by HaShem in 6 days because HaShem is not limited and He has the ability to create a world in the age of 100 million years in one moment (or whatever time He wants, G-D is not limited to time, He created it after all) or in one Ma'amar we can quote Chazal's Ma'amar "העשרה מאמרות נברא העולם".

[HiWarp]

technically...if it were measurable 365 days to equal a year, then some scientists can assume it took billions upon billions of years...but really, nobody really knows so....

and muman is right, you can't measure time without an earth spinning and revolving around a sun, so really, what is a year and how can one really measure it.

We, as humans, can't measure time without a reference but what does time mean to G-d?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For those who say G-d created the world 6000 years ago, I ask them what is there source because there is no source for this in chazal.   It seems you refer to the creation of MAN, not the world.

It is impossible to say a particular date, year, time etc that G-d created the universe.   G-d is not bound by time.   G-d is not bound to operate within the laws of Einstein or Newtonian physics.   When did "planet earth" or our physical solar system come into being?   Maybe 15 or so billion years ago after "big bang" type event.   But that itself was not G-d creating the world, because the Jewish belief is G-d created something from nothing.  And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics.   That means you cannot say the big bang was G-d creating the world.   G-d creating the world was something else, and it is beyond human measurement.    You can't date it.  Scientists estimate that earth or our solar system, whatever, came to be 15 billion years ago.  In this they are correct.  But it has nothing to do with the question "when was creation?"  According to Rambam you simply can ask that question.   And I find his explanation reasonable.

[angryChineseKahanist]

six eons ago. during the first eon.

[VforVendetta]

I lean toward the 6000 year theory but the important part is that G-d made everything and the universe didn't just appear out of nothing on its own.

You know I don't agree with young earth creationism but I agree with you that G-d created everything one way or another and that's what's important.

I agree with what Ron ben Michael says, the world was created with an age,just like Adam who was born 20 years old, that explains why the scientific examinations show the world was created billions of years ago.
And also the reason for that is because God didnt have to wait for the trees to grow up and the surface to shape, he created it finished already.

[muman613]

For those who say G-d created the world 6000 years ago, I ask them what is there source because there is no source for this in chazal.   It seems you refer to the creation of MAN, not the world.

It is impossible to say a particular date, year, time etc that G-d created the universe.   G-d is not bound by time.   G-d is not bound to operate within the laws of Einstein or Newtonian physics.   When did "planet earth" or our physical solar system come into being?   Maybe 15 or so billion years ago after "big bang" type event.   But that itself was not G-d creating the world, because the Jewish belief is G-d created something from nothing.  And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics.   That means you cannot say the big bang was G-d creating the world.   G-d creating the world was something else, and it is beyond human measurement.    You can't date it.  Scientists estimate that earth or our solar system, whatever, came to be 15 billion years ago.  In this they are correct.  But it has nothing to do with the question "when was creation?"  According to Rambam you simply can ask that question.   And I find his explanation reasonable.

How do you know that the scientists are correct? Sometimes I think you put too much trust in these scientists... If the latest Climategate scandal doesnt just prove that scientists are not always concerned with 'science' and are often motivated by religious or other reasons. Also to put all your faith in man is a way of belittling Hashem, remember that Pharoahs 'scientist/magicians' were able to duplicate the 1st three plagues of Egypt....

PS: If you read my initial response I said "I believe man was created 6000 years ago", so you didn't change my position...

[Muck DeFuslims]

For those who say G-d created the world 6000 years ago, I ask them what is there source because there is no source for this in chazal.   It seems you refer to the creation of MAN, not the world.

It is impossible to say a particular date, year, time etc that G-d created the universe.   G-d is not bound by time.   G-d is not bound to operate within the laws of Einstein or Newtonian physics.   When did "planet earth" or our physical solar system come into being?   Maybe 15 or so billion years ago after "big bang" type event.   But that itself was not G-d creating the world, because the Jewish belief is G-d created something from nothing.  And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics.   That means you cannot say the big bang was G-d creating the world.   G-d creating the world was something else, and it is beyond human measurement.    You can't date it.  Scientists estimate that earth or our solar system, whatever, came to be 15 billion years ago.  In this they are correct.  But it has nothing to do with the question "when was creation?"  According to Rambam you simply can ask that question.   And I find his explanation reasonable.

" And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics."

Sorry, this is almost completely incorrect.

Proponents of a 'big bang' do NOT posit that there was space, time, or matter before this unexplainable event.

In fact, it is impossible to say what there was before the 'big bang' because there was no time (as we understand it) before the big bang. Time did not exist before the big bang. Space did not exist before the big bang. Matter did not exist before the big bang. There was absolutely nothing.

For us, as humans, the concept of absolute nothingness is virtually incomprehensible. And to compound this and think that out of absolutely nothing came the vastness of universe and everything in it, that's simply beyond our comprehension.

Physicists tell us that the universe is expanding. Expanding into what ? The answer is nothing. Space is merely stretching. Outside of this, there is nothing.

Physicists tell us matter can not be created or destroyed. So where then did all the matter in the universe come from ?

These most basic quandries are why many physicists agree there is an unknowable force that transcends time and the laws of physics.

This force is what we call G-d.

Our sages do not disagree with the big bang theory. Nachmonides in his Kabalistic writings states that there was only one original physical creation. This singular physical creation was about the size of a grain of mustard, and a 'substance without substance'.  Nachmonides also says that it is only when matter congealed that 'time grabs a hold'. A phenomenal insight that was only confirmed thousands of years later by Einstein.

The apparent contradictions between the Biblical 6 days of creation, the approximately 6,000 years of 'generations' after Adam and the scientific contention that the universe is billions of years old (as we humans measure time) is easily resolved with a deeper understanding of Torah.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For those who say G-d created the world 6000 years ago, I ask them what is there source because there is no source for this in chazal.   It seems you refer to the creation of MAN, not the world.

It is impossible to say a particular date, year, time etc that G-d created the universe.   G-d is not bound by time.   G-d is not bound to operate within the laws of Einstein or Newtonian physics.   When did "planet earth" or our physical solar system come into being?   Maybe 15 or so billion years ago after "big bang" type event.   But that itself was not G-d creating the world, because the Jewish belief is G-d created something from nothing.  And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics.   That means you cannot say the big bang was G-d creating the world.   G-d creating the world was something else, and it is beyond human measurement.    You can't date it.  Scientists estimate that earth or our solar system, whatever, came to be 15 billion years ago.  In this they are correct.  But it has nothing to do with the question "when was creation?"  According to Rambam you simply can ask that question.   And I find his explanation reasonable.

How do you know that the scientists are correct? 

About what?

Sometimes I think you put too much trust in these scientists...

If you were in a hard science and understood the scientific method is a system based on truth and arriving at the truth, and that physical observations are factual and undeniable, you would also "trust" your intellect to accept agreeable and unassailable explanations of the physical world.   There is no "trust" involved because the scientists lay out all of their proofs and observations and methods and results on the table for anyone to see.   I cannot deny what is convincing and truthful.   Nor does Judaism demand it.

Also to put all your faith in man is a way of belittling Hashem,

This statement is an outrage, Muman!  There is no "faith" involved in science or accepting a scientific explanation of the physical world.   I am not putting faith in man by having an open mind about the truth and hewing to the truth.  God actually demands of us to hew to the truth.  As the Talmud says, "The seal of Hashem is Truth."   

Denying what is undeniably fact is a sacrifice of the intellect, which is surely assur (forbidden).   But to not deny what is plain and convincing, is not in any way wrong and does not in any way involve faith.

remember that Pharoahs 'scientist/magicians' were able to duplicate the 1st three plagues of Egypt....

So what?  You are comparing science to magic.  These are two different things.  One (magic) is based on superstition, witchcraft, and highly suspect methodology that is not objective and not replicable.   Science is nothing like that.

PS: If you read my initial response I said "I believe man was created 6000 years ago", so you didn't change my position...

Well that is fine, perhaps I misread you.  I had thought that people in this thread were saying the universe.   And the title of the thread was asking about the world, not man.   But... my mistake.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For those who say G-d created the world 6000 years ago, I ask them what is there source because there is no source for this in chazal.   It seems you refer to the creation of MAN, not the world.

It is impossible to say a particular date, year, time etc that G-d created the universe.   G-d is not bound by time.   G-d is not bound to operate within the laws of Einstein or Newtonian physics.   When did "planet earth" or our physical solar system come into being?   Maybe 15 or so billion years ago after "big bang" type event.   But that itself was not G-d creating the world, because the Jewish belief is G-d created something from nothing.  And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics.   That means you cannot say the big bang was G-d creating the world.   G-d creating the world was something else, and it is beyond human measurement.    You can't date it.  Scientists estimate that earth or our solar system, whatever, came to be 15 billion years ago.  In this they are correct.  But it has nothing to do with the question "when was creation?"  According to Rambam you simply can ask that question.   And I find his explanation reasonable.

" And before the big bang, according to those scientists who posit a 'big bang' there WAS space and time (and matter, gasses etc), and there were laws of physics."

Sorry, this is almost completely incorrect.

Proponents of a 'big bang' do NOT posit that there was space, time, or matter before this unexplainable event.

Yes they do.  Perhaps they didn't when it first came out, but modern day physicists do.  And most hold not of a one-time event, but a multiverse theory.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In fact, it is impossible to say what there was before the 'big bang' because there was no time (as we understand it) before the big bang. Time did not exist before the big bang. Space did not exist before the big bang. Matter did not exist before the big bang. There was absolutely nothing.

Where do you get this from?  Physicists don't say this.  Only people who are trying to make science and Bereshith mix say this.   But Bereshith is not a science textbook.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For us, as humans, the concept of absolute nothingness is virtually incomprehensible. And to compound this and think that out of absolutely nothing came the vastness of universe and everything in it, that's simply beyond our comprehension.

Yes, exactly.  Thus the incredibly complex hiddush (original idea) of creation ex-nihilo, brought by Torah Judaism.  It is a very complicated idea indeed.   But science runs on the assumption that there was no such thing because such a thing is a scientific impossibility.  Science runs on the assumption that there was not "absolute nothingness" because there could be no such thing without a 'miracle,' and science does not operate in the realm of miracles.   So they start with their assumption that there is a physical explanation and go from there.    "Creation ex nihilo" (from nothing) is a complete hiddush and utterly incommensurable with the scientific point of view.   They use equations to determine what caused the Big bang and what happened in the immediate aftermath.   These equations are post creation.   G-d's act of creation cannot have been bound by any such laws.

Physicists tell us matter can not be created or destroyed. So where then did all the matter in the universe come from ?

That's why physics can never quite get there.  Physics can explain the operations of the physical world up to a certain point in time in the past, but they can never get beyond a certain hurdle because they don't accept the idea of "something from nothing."  Something from nothing is a scientific absurdity.   One that occurred.  And we know it occurred from the Torah of Moshe Rabenu.   But what reason does a physicist have to assume such a notion?  So he will never be able to explain the actual creation of the world, try as he might.

These most basic quandries are why many physicists agree there is an unknowable force that transcends time and the laws of physics.

Some physicists might, but relatively speaking, I don't believe it is "many."   In any case, that is a belief they may hold, but it is not provable and therefore not scientific.   Sometimes scientists share beliefs of religious Jews and vice versa.  No problem with that.   That doesn't turn the belief into physics necessarily.

This force is what we call G-d.

Not true.   The big bang was not creation of the world because you can't pigeon-hole the creation to any particular point in history.   To say it happened at time x is against the entire concept of creation ex nihilo.  This is why I said that by the Rambam, it is an absurdity to point to any particular date or time and say that that is when G-d created the world.   It was an action that existed/occurred outside of time.   A deep understanding of the Moreh Nevuchim will help us arrive at this conclusion as my rabbi has taught me.

Our sages do not disagree with the big bang theory. Nachmonides in his Kabalistic writings states that there was only one original physical creation. This singular physical creation was about the size of a grain of mustard, and a 'substance without substance'.  Nachmonides also says that it is only when matter congealed that 'time grabs a hold'. A phenomenal insight that was only confirmed thousands of years later by Einstein. 

 What does any of this have to do with the Big Bang?   Plato also had an interesting theory about the creation of the world (different from creation ex nihilo) and HUGE authorities like the Rambam and Kuzari say that a Jew can accept the beliefs of Plato about the origin of the world and still is a kosher Jew, that it can fit with kosher Jewish belief.  But ideally a Jew should believe in creation ex nihilo.   Also it's implied by the Rambam that if there was a real scientific proof to Aristotle's philosophy that the world was eternal (That was only a philosophy, a popular one of the day, and convincing to many people, but no hard scientific evidence to it), if there was such proof, it's implied that we could interpret maaseh bereshith accordingly.  Rambam says about this, "The gates of interpretation are always open."

But since when is the Big Bang the beginning of everything?   Hawking doesn't say that.  Major physicists claim that two universes folded into each other producing the big bang.   They can't really prove this, but we can't base our belief in G-d on scientific theory.   As we now see, to do so with the scientists' explanation of the big bang, would have been a catastrophic mistake.  Because now the very same scientists who hold of the big bang  premise, also believe that it occurred as a result of universes collapsing on each other.

The apparent contradictions between the Biblical 6 days of creation, the approximately 6,000 years of 'generations' after Adam and the scientific contention that the universe is billions of years old (as we humans measure time) is easily resolved with a deeper understanding of Torah.

I don't think I ever disputed that.   I think the major error is to take "6 days of creation" as something literal.  Without making that mistake, it's actually quite easy.   (Or at least... 'much easier' to do).

[Muck DeFuslims]

KWRBT, your understanding of the big bang and how it relates to space, time and matter is obviously different than mine.

Big bang, string theory, multiverses...in the final analysis, how much does it really matter ?

Science has the luxury of changing over time. What is accepted as truth today, might not accepted or proven wrong tomorrow.

Torah doesn't have that luxury. Torah doesn't change.

The bottom line (and I think we agree on this) is that science will never be able to explain existence.

Either an individual accepts creation and a Creator, or he/she doesn't or he/she isn't sure.

It becomes a matter of faith.

I wish I had perfect faith, but I can't honestly say that I do. However, based on my admittedly imperfect understanding of both science and Torah, I don't see any unresolvable contradictions between the two.

An aside to Muman (or actually anyone that knows); in another thread you quoted the opening text of Bereshit. I believe the wording you used was 'Before the beginning'. I'm curious where you got this from. Is there a source for a more detailed, exact translation of the Tanach from Hebrew into English ?

Thanks.