Author Topic: Allah Vs. God  (Read 11820 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Allah Vs. G-d
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2009, 02:43:07 PM »
                                                                       בס"ד

It doesn't bother me that Maimonides concluded that Allah and Hashem are technically the same G-d. I personally disagree, because all of the attributes of Allah came from Molech and Sin and other satanic pagan "deities" of the Fertile Crescent, and the monotheism of Allah was simply ripped-off from Judaism, but who am I to tell people what to believe?



Theologically, they are, since they're both one G-D who created the universe, the idea of divinity is the same, or let's just sum it up by - both Judaism and Islam are Monotheistic, and that's what he meant,  the difference is known (the difference between Torah and Islam), the fact that its name and theological background roots deeply in Pagan religions doesn't matter here.
even theologically they dont have same idea, Muslims technically are pagans for whom worshipping towards the direction of the black rock is compulsory.   From study of ancient Arab religions, we can conclude that Al-Lah is a pagan moon G-d.

HZ,

Are you aware that Jews are required to pray facing Eastward toward the Beit HaMikdash/Temple mount? I dont think that there is anything particularly wrong with praying facing toward something.... I think this too is stolen from Judaism...


i was not aware of this. so Jews living in the East have to pray towards West (direction of Temple mount) ? and this is compulsory?

I would not say compulsary, but it is the custom, and every Jew respects the minhag/custom of the Jewish community. You would not be executed if you prayed in the wrong direction... But my place where I pray, in my yard, is facing eastward...

Let me find you mention of this custom:

Here are the 'laws' of prayer from Yeshivat Har Etzion:



http://vbm-torah.org/archive/tefila/67-26tefila.htm

Shiur #26: The Laws of the Shemoneh Esrei (1)
Rav David Brofsky


Direction of Prayer:

The Gemara (Berakhot 30a) teaches:

"Our Rabbis taught: A blind man or one who cannot tell the cardinal points should direct his heart towards his Father in Heaven, as it says, 'And they pray unto the Lord.'

If one is standing outside of Israel, he should turn mentally (yechaven libo) towards Eretz Yisrael, as it says, 'And pray unto Thee towards their land' (I Melakhim 8:48). If he stands in Eretz Yisrael he should turn mentally towards Yerushalayim, as it says, 'And they pray unto the Lord toward the city which Thou hast chosen' (ibid. 44). If he is standing in Yerushalayim he should turn mentally towards the Beit Ha-mikdash, as it says, 'If they pray toward this house' (II Divrei Ha-yamim 6:26). If he is standing in the Beit Ha-mikdash, he should turn mentally towards the Holy of Holies, as it says, 'If they pray toward this place' (I Melakhim 8:35). If he was standing in the Holy of Holies he should turn mentally towards the Beit Ha-Kaporet. If he was standing behind the Beit Ha-Kaporet he should imagine himself to be in front of the Kaporet. Consequently, if he is in the east he should turn his face to the west; if in the west he should turn his face to the east; if in the south he should turn his face to the north; if in the north he should turn his face to the south. In this way all Israel will be turning their hearts towards one place…"

            This Gemara implies that according to all opinions one should pray towards the Beit Ha-mikdash.

            However, the Gemara (Bava Batra 25b) elsewhere brings a debate regarding this issue.

"R. Yishmael also held that the Shekhina is in all places… R. Sheshet also held that the Shekhina is in all places, because [when desiring to pray] he used to say to his attendant: Set me facing any way except the east. And this was not because the Shekhina is not there, but because the Minim prescribe turning to the east. R. Abbahu, however, said that the Shekhina is in the west… R. Yitzchak said: He who desires to become wise should turn to the south [when praying], and he who desires to become rich should turn to the north. The symbol [by which to remember this] is that the table [in the Tabernacle] was to the north of the altar and the candlestick to the south. R. Yehoshua ben Levi, however, said that he should always turn to the south, because through obtaining wisdom he will obtain wealth, as it says, 'Length of days are in her [wisdom's] right hand, in her left hand are riches and honor.' But was it not R. Yehoshua ben Levi who said that the Shekhina is in the west? — [He means that] one should turn partly. R. Chanina said to R. Ashi: Those like you who live to the north of Eretz Yisrael should turn to the south…"

This Gemara presents four opinions. According to R. Yishmael and R. Sheshet, one may pray in any direction (although preferably not east), as the Shekhina is found in all directions. R. Yitzchak, on the other hand, believes that one may pray towards the north or south, depending on one's desire for wealth or wisdom. According to R. Abbahu, one should face west, as the Shekhina is in the west, and R. Yehoshua ben Levi adds that one may turn partly towards the south. Finally, R. Chanina maintains that one who lives to the north of Israel should turn south while praying.

            Tosafot (Berakhot 30a and Bava Batra 25a) and the Rosh (Berakhot 4:19) assume that the Amoraim in Bava Batra (except for R. Chanina) DISAGREE with the sugya in Massekhet Berakhot, and they rule in accordance with the Gemara in Berakhot, i.e. that one should face Yerushalayim.

            The Beit Yosef (94), however, cites the Semag, as well as the Mahari Abuhav, who rule that one MAY pray facing north or south, as long as one turns one face toward the east.  In other words, the two sugyot do NOT contradict each other, and while ideally one should face Yerushalayim, one may pray in a different direction and turn one's face towards Jerusalem.

            Surprisingly, the Shulchan Arukh (94:1-2) rules in accordance with their view, and one who wishes to fulfill the Talmudic maxim, "He who desires to become wise should turn to the south [when praying], and he who desires to become rich should turn to the north" may do so, although the Rema acknowledges that the custom was to pray towards the east (mizrach), in the direction of Eretz Yisrael, as long as he turns his face towards the east.

            To what extent should one be precise in facing Yerushalayim during prayer? A number of sources seem to indicate the one's exact direct is not crucial.

            For example, the Gemara (Berakhot 30a) teaches that one standing in 'Chutz La-aretz' should direct their prayer towards Eretz Yisrael. The Gemara does not seem to require a more precise direction. Similarly, R. Chanina (Bava Batra 25a) instructs R. Ashi, "Those like you who live to the north of Eretz Yisrael should turn to the south…" Even though Bavel is north-east of Israel, he merely told them to face south. Furthermore, our version of that Gemara (Berakhot 30a) says that one should "direct one's heart (yechaven libo) towards Yerushalayim…" implying that one's intentions are critical, and not necessarily the physical direction.

            Seemingly these sources support the common practice of those in the Western Diaspora to pray towards the east, regardless of their precise location. In fact, the Arukh Ha-Shulchan (94:4) notes that while Tosafot, as well as the Rosh, faced east during their prayers, the Rema, as well as the Arukh Ha-Shulchan himself, lived north-west of Eretz Yisrael. Therefore, it would seem that the correct custom would be to build a Beit Kenesset facing southeast! Or, at least those facing east should turn slightly towards the south, which is clearly against the common custom! (The Mishna Berura writes that those who are west of Jerusalem, like "in our country," should face east!)

            The Arukh Ha-Shulchan then questions the ruling of the Tosafot and Rosh, and asks, how is it possible that all of the Amoraim cited in Bava Batra reject Shlomo Ha-Melekh's call (I Melakhim 8:44), "And they pray unto the LORD toward the city which Thou hast chosen, and toward the house which I have built for Thy name…." Alternatively, how is it possible that we rule in accordance with the single opinion cited in Berakhot, against all of the Amoraim cited in Bava Batra!

            He concludes that the Amoraim really do not disagree, and that while one may face other direction for various reasons, one should always be inclined towards Yerushalayim.  Therefore, one can understand the custom of Eastern European Jewry to build their synagogues towards the east, as it is sufficient to face in the general direction of Eretz Yisrael, and to direct one's "heart" towards Jerusalem.

            Others, however, seem to insist that one actually physically, and some even insist precisely, face Yerushalayim. Firstly, Tosafot insist that the Gemara in Berakhot should not read "turn one's heart," as one is required to actually turn one's face towards Yerushalayim.  Secondly, the Ma'adanei Yom Tov (Rosh, Berakhot 4:6), who questions why R. Chanina told R. Ashi to face south while praying, and not southwest, explains that R. Chanina was instructing them not ONLY to face west, as they would have assumed, but also slightly south, towards Yerushalayim. In fact, the sixteenth century Rav Mordechi Yaffe, author of the Levush (and well educated in math, philosophy and engineering), insists that in Eastern Europe one should face east during prayer (see Mishna Berura 94:11). (Incidentally, calculating the precise direction to Jerusalem is quite complicated, depending on whether one uses the "great circle" or "rhumb line" [a loxodromic curve].)

            The Acharonim cite a number of practical differences between these opinions. For example, should one who started the Shemoneh Esrei in a different direction move one's legs in order to turn towards Jerusalem? Similarly, if an entire congregation if facing away from Jerusalem, in one permitted to turn in a different direction, in order to face the proper direction? The Mishna Berura (95:10), for example, rules that if one mistakenly started to pray facing the incorrect direction, one should continue, and "turn one's face" towards Jerusalem.

            Often, one may find one's self in a synagogue in which the aron kodesh faces away from Jerusalem. The Mishna Berura (10), as well as the Arukh Ha-Shulchan and others, rules that one should NOT turn one's back to the aron, even at the expense of praying away from Jerusalem. In fact, the Arukh Ha-Shulchan (94:5) writes that even those to the south of the aron kodesh facing east shouldn't face somewhat south, as by doing so they would be turning their backs, even slightly, away from the aron. The Peri Megadim, however, in his Mishbetzot Zahav, disagrees, claiming that only those standing directly next to the aron itself should avoid turning their backs to the aron.

            Incidentally, the Yeshivat Har Etzion Beit Midrash, which faces due north, is 38.5 degrees north of Jerusalem. In other words, one who wishes to face Jerusalem precisely must turn slightly to the right while praying. Rav Amital ruled in accordance with the Arukh Ha-Shulchan, that the tzibbur should face the aron ha-kodesh (see http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/halak57/11east.doc  for a fuller discussion).

            This problem also arises at the Kotel Ha-maaravi, which is located slightly south of the Makom ha-Mikdash. One who wishes to face the Mikdash precisely should turn slightly left, towards the central part of the Temple Mount.

            Finally, one who is traveling on a plane should, seemingly, also try to face Jerusalem. Therefore, when flying TOWARDS Israel, one should face the front of the plane, while when flying FROM Israel, one should face the rear. One who is unable to determine which direction to face, or who unable to pray in his direction of choice, should direct one's heart towards his Father in heaven.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: Allah Vs. G-d
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2009, 08:49:25 PM »
You guys, this thread has been going on for six pages.  And in all honesty, I don't see the point of discussing what Allah is or is not.  This is not getting us anywhere.  Look all around you at what's going in the countries of Europe with large Muslim populations.  Look at that state of the countries in the Middle East.  We don't need to argue in the abstract about what Allah is or is not.  All we need to do is to look at the actions of the followers of Mohammed in countries where Muslims are becoming, or where they have already become the majorities.  There's plenty there to criticize right there.   

So please people.  Let's keep it civil.  I don't want any more arguments.  Otherwise, I'll have to lock this thread. 

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Allah Vs. G-d
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2009, 10:43:35 PM »
בס''ד

Bio-electric, I must again apologize to you for this latest outburst.

You are a wonderful, righteous and courageous man, and I have the greatest respect and admiration for you. I am so embarrassed by all of this. Please forgive me!

I don't really see a need for you to apologise Chaim. You have done nothing wrong.
I have joined JTF because I recognise the truth that you speak. You are a great leader; righteous people will listen to you, others won't.
You really should not call me courageous because you do not know me. Maybe someday we will meet and then you can make a judgement.

I usually put little value in words, so apologies from people who have tried to insult me mean nothing to me. Why is it that people like Dan Ben Noah, 4international, Ulli and Arksis are such obvious wonderfull people?
Because your instincts give it a green light all the way.

I cannot be insulted by a person who switches back and forth between ramblings of grandeur, infantile ramblings like: "why me?"; who when out of reasoning says: you are not worthy, not capable to understand, calls people communists and makes unstable insults when exposed to be doing this.
This has nothing to do with age; this looks like the rules for radicals.

I cannot be insulted by ron because I know what he is. Unfortunately you do not share my view on this.

It terrifies me to see what sort of people you have to deal with.
Some forummembers will suck up to you...
Some forummembers will suck up to ron because you praise him...
I have no interest in such phonyness.

You should think about why you picked Dan Ben Noah as an administrator. It's because he is a downright wonderfull person.

I know it is hard to find good leaders suitable to continue the legacy of Rabbi Meir Kahane, because that is what JTF is and that is what you are doing.

The gentiles liked Kahane, the gentiles like Chaim, the gentiles like... Dan Ben Noah
The gentiles liked Kahane, the gentiles like Chaim, the gentiles like... Yoseph Ben Meir
The gentiles liked Kahane, the gentiles like Chaim, the gentiles like... David Ben Moshe
The gentiles liked Kahane, the gentiles like Chaim, the gentiles like... Paulette

Who do the gentiles like these people? Because it is obvious.

Why do people like Pat Condell? Because he has reasoning. Please stay picky Chaim.

No JTF forummember is going to make me "un-join" JTF. That would be absurd.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Allah Vs. G-d
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2009, 01:59:01 AM »
Saying their monotheism was "ripped off from Judaism" is obviously true.   But you have admitted that they do believe in monotheism.   They subsumed all those various pagan beliefs and worship and conquered the globe and spread Islam, a rip-off Monotheism, but monotheism nonetheless.   No one was giving muhammad credit, chas ve shalom.   Only pointing out the fact that their belief is monotheistic even if based on a madman's rantings...
Of course Islam is a monotheism, it's just that the imaginary deity that they believe in is literally a combination of all of the worst of the evil pagan gds of the Fertile Crescent.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Allah Vs. G-d
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2009, 02:02:36 AM »
brennan fan - i understand you feel like you were backed to a corner here and feel you should explain your christian principles here , but this forum is of a jewish movement and , christianity (or any other religion besides judaism) should not be spoken of here for it will allow missionery based messages in the future , + belive me you dont wanne hear what most jews really think about christianity , cause infact , the very basis and core of christianity is somthing a true jewish beliver cannot accept

about what you saying ,christianity does view satan as if the "nemesis" , the evil one ,the rebel one, the one who have powers and rule armies of demons who he wants to conquer heaven with ... so in a way ,christianity view him ,even if not "directly" ( or perheps it does , look at your second Corinthians 4:4) , another g,o,d ...some christians view him just as the persians viewed ahiraman

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but Christians believe that the devil is the "prince of the air" (i.e. ruler of the earth) because G-d allows him to for now, for a time, as a supreme test to all mankind. He has no real power of his own whatsoever.

Offline HEBREWHONOR

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Re: Allah Vs. G-d
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2009, 10:07:57 PM »
but thats the thing .... any greek who would wanne sound monotheist would have said the same about "zeus" permitting all his little sons be "g,o,ds"

for us , this looks like you belive in another deןty , an enemy of your main one , which is like i said , like the persians viewed ahiraman... what you belive is your interpretation , some christians do view it this way due to their interpretation and they have christian sources who goes by the way they understand it ,like the one i mentioned