Please help!

[Raulmarrio2000]

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/584394380

Save Martin Grossman's Life!

[Ulli]

I have read the petition carefully and I signed it. It was terrible what he did, but I think that the death penalty is disproportionate if you look at the person and the circumstances of the crime. Specially if you consider the fact that he admitted the crime and feels guilty for it.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Is this the same person

"On the night of December 13, 1984, Martin Grossman and a companion, Taylor, drove to a wooded area in Pinellas County, Florida, and were shooting a stolen handgun when they were approached by Margaret Park, a Florida Wildlife Officer.
Park confiscated the weapon and license of Grossman, at which point Grossman pleaded with her not report him for possessing a weapon and being outside of Pasco County, both of which were violations of his probation for a burglary charge.

Park picked up the radio to call the sheriff’s office, but was repeatedly struck on the head and shoulders by her flashlight by Grossman and then beaten by Taylor.

Park managed to draw her weapon and fired a wild shot within the vehicle, as well as disable Taylor with a kick to the groin. Grossman, who was one foot taller and one hundred pounds heavier than Park, wrestled the weapon away from her and shot her once in the back of the head.

Grossman and Taylor fled the scene with Grossman’s license, gun, and Park’s gun."

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/ig/Florida-Death-Row-Inmates/Martin-Grossman.htm 

[rhayat1]

Nope.  I can't say I feel sympathy for this man.

[Moshe92]

Nope.  I can't say I feel sympathy for this man.

I second that.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I am not an expert on Hallacha. But I understand that we must try to save a Jew from a Gentile punishment, even a fine, when according to Torah he would have been judged differently. I doubt he'd have been condemned to execution 25 years later under any Jewish court in Israel if a Sanhedrin were in power.
If it is true that Ravs supported the petition, I cling to their rule. Besides, I consider that a life sentence, with 25 years suffering a pending execution, is by large enough punishment for him

[Spiraling Leopard]

I really don't see why khalid sheik mohammed, abdul rahman and nidal hasan can't get the death penalty.

Just kill those degraded apes.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am not an expert on Hallacha. But I understand that we must try to save a Jew from a Gentile punishment, even a fine, when according to Torah he would have been judged differently. I doubt he'd have been condemned to execution 25 years later under any Jewish court in Israel if a Sanhedrin were in power.
If it is true that Ravs supported the petition, I cling to their rule. Besides, I consider that a life sentence, with 25 years suffering a pending execution, is by large enough punishment for him

I agree.  They are not asking for clemency or release.  They are asking for a life sentence with no parole instead of the death penalty.  Given the circumstances, and for a guy who has repented of his ways, I see no problem with that and agree with rebbeim who are behind this petition. 

[t_h_j]

he doesn't look so great now

[Serbian Canadian]

There are worse criminals who deserve the death penalty instead of this guy but coming up with a list of excuses for his actions is wrong. He did what he did and now he's going to face the consequences. I don't have any sympathy for him.

[Ulli]

I am not an expert on Hallacha. But I understand that we must try to save a Jew from a Gentile punishment, even a fine, when according to Torah he would have been judged differently. I doubt he'd have been condemned to execution 25 years later under any Jewish court in Israel if a Sanhedrin were in power.
If it is true that Ravs supported the petition, I cling to their rule. Besides, I consider that a life sentence, with 25 years suffering a pending execution, is by large enough punishment for him

I agree.  They are not asking for clemency or release.  They are asking for a life sentence with no parole instead of the death penalty.  Given the circumstances, and for a guy who has repented of his ways, I see no problem with that and agree with rebbeim who are behind this petition. 

Yes.

[muman613]

I will not sign the petition because I am a supporter of the death penalty. I don't know what Halacha is involved in this case and don't understand why the Rabbis are involved. This man may be born Jewish but he certainly did not live a righteous life.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I will not sign the petition because I am a supporter of the death penalty. I don't know what Halacha is involved in this case and don't understand why the Rabbis are involved. This man may be born Jewish but he certainly did not live a righteous life.

If you admit that you don't know the Hallacha for this case, then you you should support the Rabbis who know better, except if your own Rav rules differently

[rhayat1]

Another side to this that we should consider is how it would look, in the eyes of the world (the goyim) if a bunch of us Jews rallied to spare this man's life after what he did.  It might reasonably be argued that this would constitute a Hillul haShem.  He did NOT live his life as a Jew.  He fell in with the wrong crowd.  He got involved with drugs and now --- he's sorry.  Well guess what.  The same could be said for any number of blacks and Hispanics.  They don't deserve clemency and neither does this man.  My two cents, for what it's worth.

[muman613]

It is true that Hashem accepts the Teshuva of all Jewish neshamas.... This being said the fact that one does Teshuva to Hashem doesn't negate the fact that he took a human life and should receive punishment for this sin. If his Teshuva is sincere and it is accepted {which I believe Hashem accepts all sincere repentance} then he has nothing to worry about. He will be judged in heaven and may have another chance at life.... But this life is ruined and he should die...

Rabbi Shafier {who has a program @ A7 Radio} recently discussed this in his Shuir about Emmunah and Bitachon... Anyone who dies by violent means must have been judged for death by Hashem.... But the fact that Hashem has an evil decree on a person doesn't give any human the right to be the one to carry out the death sentence on the victim. But the victim is marked for death regardless of the murderers intentions. Free Will is one of Hashems most prime directives {Star Trek reference}.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1888

[Raulmarrio2000]

Another side to this that we should consider is how it would look, in the eyes of the world (the goyim) if a bunch of us Jews rallied to spare this man's life after what he did.  It might reasonably be argued that this would constitute a Hillul haShem.  He did NOT live his life as a Jew.  He fell in with the wrong crowd.  He got involved with drugs and now --- he's sorry.  Well guess what.  The same could be said for any number of blacks and Hispanics.  They don't deserve clemency and neither does this man.  My two cents, for what it's worth.

In fact, drugs are not even an issue in Hallacha except for "Dina da malchuta dina" ( the religious obligation of a Jew to abide by the civil law in the Galut) and "Pikuach Nefesh" (the obligation to abstain from damaging one's own health), but niether of these mitzvot involve execution. Murder, in fact, involves execution according to Hallacha. But if Rabbis support the petition, they must have reason in this special case.
BTW, is US a moral authority to administer execution after they received Arafat ( a terrorist who murdered thosands of Jews) in the White House with the honours of a Haed of State?

[muman613]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

Read about Tookie Williams, a black criminal who was executed in 2005... It was widely reported that he had repented {in a christian way}...

Stanley Tookie Williams III (December 29, 1953 – December 13, 2005), born in New Orleans, Louisiana was an early leader of the Crips, a notorious American street gang which had its roots in South Central Los Angeles in 1971. In 1979 he was convicted of four murders committed in the course of robberies, and he remained in prison for the rest of his life. Later on in his life, he became an author of several books including anti-gang and violence literature. In December 2005, he was executed.

Williams allegedly refused to help police investigate his gang, and was implicated in attacks on guards and other women, as well as multiple escape plots, however this was never proven. In 1993, Williams began making changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California. He renounced his gang affiliation and apologized for his role in founding the Crips. He also co-wrote children's books and participated in efforts intended to prevent youths from joining gangs.[1] A biographical TV-movie entitled Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story was made in 2004, and featured Jamie Foxx as Williams.

On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amidst debate over the death penalty and whether Williams' anti-gang advocacy in prison represented genuine atonement. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005.

[rhayat1]

Another side to this that we should consider is how it would look, in the eyes of the world (the goyim) if a bunch of us Jews rallied to spare this man's life after what he did.  It might reasonably be argued that this would constitute a Hillul haShem.  He did NOT live his life as a Jew.  He fell in with the wrong crowd.  He got involved with drugs and now --- he's sorry.  Well guess what.  The same could be said for any number of blacks and Hispanics.  They don't deserve clemency and neither does this man.  My two cents, for what it's worth.

In fact, drugs are not even an issue in Hallacha except for "Dina da malchuta dina" ( the religious obligation of a Jew to abide by the civil law in the Galut) and "Pikuach Nefesh" (the obligation to abstain from damaging one's own health), but niether of these mitzvot involve execution. Murder, in fact, involves execution according to Hallacha. But if Rabbis support the petition, they must have reason in this special case.
BTW, is US a moral authority to administer execution after they received Arafat ( a terrorist who murdered thosands of Jews) in the White House with the honours of a Haed of State?

It's a very good point you bring up.  An excellent point indeed and a good reason to oppose the death penalty.  The State has no credibility to handle our money, run our nation or manage foreign affairs, let alone have the power of life and death over us (modified). That being said, I look at this not as just punishment by those who know best, rather as something bad that's happening to him as a result of his actions.  It's like he got hit by a bus or struck by lightening.  When bad things happen to bad people, I don't feel sorry for them.

[Raulmarrio2000]

And I don't think there is any Hillul H" because Jews today don't use the capital punishment. PM Shamir conceded clemency to the only Arab terrorist that has ever been condemned to that penalty in the history of Israel. It would perhaps be a Hillul "H if Jews used capital punishment and then opposed it when a Jew is condemned. Besides, that petition is open to eveeryone, and I think it will be supported mostly by Gentiles who oppose capital punishment.

[Ulli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

Read about Tookie Williams, a black criminal who was executed in 2005... It was widely reported that he had repented {in a christian way}...

Stanley Tookie Williams III (December 29, 1953 – December 13, 2005), born in New Orleans, Louisiana was an early leader of the Crips, a notorious American street gang which had its roots in South Central Los Angeles in 1971. In 1979 he was convicted of four murders committed in the course of robberies, and he remained in prison for the rest of his life. Later on in his life, he became an author of several books including anti-gang and violence literature. In December 2005, he was executed.

Williams allegedly refused to help police investigate his gang, and was implicated in attacks on guards and other women, as well as multiple escape plots, however this was never proven. In 1993, Williams began making changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California. He renounced his gang affiliation and apologized for his role in founding the Crips. He also co-wrote children's books and participated in efforts intended to prevent youths from joining gangs.[1] A biographical TV-movie entitled Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story was made in 2004, and featured Jamie Foxx as Williams.

On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amidst debate over the death penalty and whether Williams' anti-gang advocacy in prison represented genuine atonement. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005.

Muman, this is a totally different league. This black was a cold planning murderer who even threatened the jury. He was a professional  criminal.

The other guy was in a situation, that got totally out of controll. I don't want to excuse what he did. But this two cases are not comparable.

[muman613]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

Read about Tookie Williams, a black criminal who was executed in 2005... It was widely reported that he had repented {in a christian way}...

Stanley Tookie Williams III (December 29, 1953 – December 13, 2005), born in New Orleans, Louisiana was an early leader of the Crips, a notorious American street gang which had its roots in South Central Los Angeles in 1971. In 1979 he was convicted of four murders committed in the course of robberies, and he remained in prison for the rest of his life. Later on in his life, he became an author of several books including anti-gang and violence literature. In December 2005, he was executed.

Williams allegedly refused to help police investigate his gang, and was implicated in attacks on guards and other women, as well as multiple escape plots, however this was never proven. In 1993, Williams began making changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California. He renounced his gang affiliation and apologized for his role in founding the Crips. He also co-wrote children's books and participated in efforts intended to prevent youths from joining gangs.[1] A biographical TV-movie entitled Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story was made in 2004, and featured Jamie Foxx as Williams.

On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amidst debate over the death penalty and whether Williams' anti-gang advocacy in prison represented genuine atonement. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005.

Muman, this is a totally different league. This black was a cold planning murderer who even threatened the jury. He was a professional  criminal.

The other guy was in a situation, that got totally out of controll. I don't want to excuse what he did. But this two cases are not comparable.

In questions of repentence it doesn't matter how heinous the crime... The question, in my opinion, is whether it is possible for humans to be forgiven for murder. No matter how much repentance is done the victim will never be brought back.

PS: The perp in this case had prior criminal convictions if I read the story correctly {he was on probation for burglary  and in possession of a firearm which he was discharging in public}.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I can't say that I am moved by any of what the petition site lists as mitigating factors. Very, very few people have pleasant childhoods, and most don't grow up to kill. Deal with it. If he is really and truly repentant that's good, but G-d establishes governments to do justice, not blindly hand out mercy. Mercy is solely in the hands of the victims of a crime.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman, this is a totally different league. This black was a cold planning murderer who even threatened the jury. He was a professional  criminal.

The other guy was in a situation, that got totally out of controll. I don't want to excuse what he did. But this two cases are not comparable.

I have to agree with Muman on this one. Nobody forced this guy to fall in with the wrong crowd, get into drugs, and murder. This was of his own free will. The fact that he was not as prolific as Tookie only proves that negroes are better at mass murder than Jews are, not that this guy should receive pity.

The law needs to judge all murderers the same regardless of whether or not they have repented or had religious conversions. In Tookie's case I very much doubt that he did repent. In this guy's case, I do not know, but nonetheless the law must be impartial and just.

[Confederate Kahanist]

Someone might ought to ask Chaim about this on ask JTF and then I might make a decision to sign this. 

[muman613]

I did not check out the site but I am wondering what the Halachic issue is.

Is it that we are supposed to redeem a Jew from punishment by a non-Jewish system of justice?